I know, I know, its picky and technical, but the numbers that the passenger train opponents in our national capitol use are skewed to show huge losses in passenger trains, and the "per passenger" measurement does just that. Passenger-MILE" is a different unit of measurement, one passenger carried one mile, and gives much, much more accurate numbers. I think some figures that are used show something like 0.37 loss perpassenger-mile, NOT $100 per passenger such as what has been asserted in recent articles ( see Railnews.net, click on "Revitalized Amtrak still faces fight for federal subsidies"). The reporters (and, unfortunatly, many legislators) fail to distinguish between a "per-passenger" vs "per passenger-mile."

Another thing that can be done is simple cleanliness of the trains. Most of my first trips on Amtrak in the 1980s, and continuing to the present, have had too many instances of retention toilets that were frozen shut (i.e., unable to be emptied until the end of the run), or just plain filthy. I understand that it's impossible for the crew to pick up anfter everyone, and that some passengers are just plain pigs, but that's not the end of the service issues. See GeoffM's latest trip report on dining car waitstaff who were rude to the point of incompetence, for another example. I don't expect to be treated like royalty (I can take care of myself on board just fine, thank you), but one of the things that I hear about all too often from non-rail fans is the lack of cleanliness and the brusque manner from the crew while in the coach section aboard trains.

[This message has been edited by CG96 (edited 01-27-2004).]

Overnight cafe service would require an extra crew member, but that would not necessarily be a bad thing. The lounge cafe attendant is stuck in a tiny space from 6:00am until 11:00pm, about 17 hours, and I think that is why they tend to be the grumpiest employees on the train. Splitting it into two 12 hour shifts would be easier on them, and provide better service to the passengers.

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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

The Del Monte Club Car

Since the window seats are the most popular, and get the most use, they're typically the least comfortable -- and can completely wreck your spine during the course of a lengthy rail trip.

quote:

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Originally posted by shanghaiamtrak:
cg96, can you tell me where geoff's latest trip report is?

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This phone should be placed in a coach car, maybe in a retrofitted bathroom. The reason I'm emphasizing coach car placement is because recently, on a trip from Chicago to New York, the cafe car (where the phone was located) was removed in Albany, thus making it impossible to make a call as we entered NYP.

Needless to say, the space of time before one enters a city is the time when one is most inclined to a make a phonecall that costs $1.99 a minute.

Yes, it would be nice if long haul trains were always on time but since they generally aren't (very often they're an hour or so early!), then a phone becomes quite a precious thing to have on board. Especially when friends and family may be waiting on your call and are not particularly Julie-savvy.

Along these lines, Amtrak needs to make strict rules regarding the use of cell phones on the train, as well as the use of other electronic devices that beep and even crack down on those who keep the volume of their CD players up so high that others can hear their damn rap music through their headphones.

As far as the bathrooms are concerned, I firmly believe that it is the duty of the *passengers* to keep them clean. It is the duty of Amtrak to keep the toilets flushing, however. If a bathroom becomes so disgusting that it is unusable, it should be made "out of order" and closed to the public.

Passengers need to be educated on the etiquette of riding on a train. Amtrak employees are not slaves. Passengers have huge responsibilities and they need to be educated about them.

[This message has been edited by Chucky (edited 01-28-2004).]

Fund capital improvements.
- New equipment
- Repairing equipment
- Own track
- Funding to other RRs for their track.

Improve customer service throughout:
- Car service
- Station service
- Reservation operations.

John

Your question presupposes that there is something wrong with Amtrak's service.

Having just completed a trip from Albuquerque to Ottawa, I must say that Amtrak performs miracles with the crumbs that the government gives them.

The passengers, on the other hand, could have been a little more considerate.

I suppose a cell phone is appropriate in the observation car or cafe car but they are certainly not welcome in the coach car.

For that matter, I have a problem with people in coach who have no concept of personal hygiene as well. On the other extreme, I find people who cover themselves with stinky perfume or colognes offensive, as well.

On my return trip to Albuquerque from Chicago, there was one lunatic lady who was spraying the car with lysol because she was afraid of getting the flu from somebody. Thankfully the conductor told her, in no uncertain terms, to knock it off.

The suggestion that I buy a sleeper to escape from somebody in coach who is talking on a cellphone is beyond belief. That's sort of like the uninsured fellow who once hit me with his car while I was riding my bike and demanded I pay him for the damage I caused *his* car.

If you are going to ride in coach, you have to be discreet, polite and quiet. I suppose if you are an Amish child and don't know any better, you can squeel a bit before your Mom gives you a bit of hell. But responsible adults should know better than to bug other responsible adults.

If you want to talk on your cellphone, go to to the observation car or the cafe car. It's that simple.

quote:

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Originally posted by Chucky:

If you want to talk on your cellphone, go to to the observation car or the cafe car. It's that simple....

Can somebody please tell those of us who don't have a clue why talking on a cellphone makes the rest of us crazy?

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Some of us clueless cell phone users do understand and sympathize with your complaing about how some people can be obnoxious when the talk loudly, talk for long periods of time, and receive annoying and frequent cell phone rings. I can also understand your point about taking the conversation to the obs car, but that's not always possible.

For example- my last trip I was heading toward Orlando on the Sunset Limited (which was running 10 hrs late), and I had my 4 year old son asleep on the coach seat next to me. I couldn't just get up and leave my son on the seat with strangers so I could go to the obs car to make a few calls to arrange last minute hotel arrangements so we would have a place to stay once we got into town at 3:30 am (ugh- long story about that). Actually, half of the people on the coach car I was in had cell phones and they were all busy on their phones calling their worried families to let them know where they were and when they expected to arrive at their destinations. I actually let a few old ladies use my cell phone to call their daughters who were expecting them at the train station in Orlando and were worried about where their elderly mothers were.

It's on the shorter haul trains, particularly along the Northeast Corridor (Boston-New York-Washington) that things often get out of hand.

Much of it is due to the fact that many NEC passengers are "commuters" rather than travelers. They're bored, they're headed to or from work, they're usually wired on way too much coffee, and many clearly view themselves as "Captains of Industry" -- and therefore entitled to ignore the negative impact their incessant yakking has on other passengers.

As you know, Sutton, a business is different than a service, and I consider city buses, commuter trains and Amtrak to be examples of a service. A service does not necessarily make a profit. In Albuquerque, the city buses only collect 18 percent of the revenue it requires in order to pay its bills. But you don't hear many people writing the papers to demand the end of city buses. If anything they want newer buses and more routes and you know what that means.

Getting back to your posting, however, I don't know if Americans are selfish slobs. One might actually be able to make an argument for such a comment. Think about what a bathroom on the Southwest Chief looks like when it leaves Los Angeles. Now think about what it looks like when it arrives in Chicago and you tell me how conscientious and considerate people are when it comes to the way they leave a bathroom.

That addresses your comment about sloppiness. As far as selfishness is concerned. Well, America's entrepreneurs were suckled on the teet of people like Ayn Rand and the movie Wall Street that taught us there was definitely a virtue in Selfishness. No, I probably won't ever make it in business (though I do seem to thrive in such an environment as a worker bee), but I do see definite virtue in helping to keep a bathroom clean, helping an Amtrak attendant keep the aisles clear of baggage and helping the waiters clear up my mess when I'm finished eating in the dining car.

Mr. Boyishcolt, you and I should thank our lucky stars that at this point in history trains only attract 2% of the travelling public. If it attracted any more, there would simply not be enough trains to accommodate them all. Last time I took the southwest chief, they had to designate a regular coach car as the observation car because they could not find an operational one in Chicago's Union Station. The time before that the train was delayed three hours in order to make repairs on the dining car. And the time before that the dining car was not even operational and everybody got free Kentucky Fried Rat dinners (I mean Chicken, sorry).

Mr. Boyishcult, people are starting to ride the train in droves and its putting a definite strain on the system that did not formerly exist. And this demand for train service is simply not going away either. Everything changed since Sept. 11th and those people who rabidly hated Amtrak before that terrible day are now beginning to see that they are having to move on to some other cause because the American public wants train travel, both for recreational use and serious, long haul commuting.

Now then, as far as cell phones are concerned. I don't own a cell phone so it's hard for me to properly address this subject. It really doesn't bother me (that much) when people use the phone responsibly: i.e they don't talk loudly into it and they have the alarm set to a vibration mode.

However (and I thought about this for a long time last night), a cell phone's ring definitely has a way of disrupting the thoughts of people who may be reading, conversing or just staring out the window, quietly contemplating. People may think they're so clever by making the ring sound like Beethoven's Fifth, but I just think they're rude.

Furthermore, think about what a person is doing when they are conversing (loudly and inconsiderately) with another person on a cellphone. Think about it for a minute.

A hundred years ago, a person on a train, speaking into a small box would be regarded as a lunatic. Maybe a dangerous lunatic. But it goes further than that.

When a person is conversing with somebody on a cellphone, they are actually introducing that person (virtually) into the train compartment. This "virtual person" is introduced into the coach car like a person crashing the party at a formal dinner. In short, this "virtual person" is an uninvited guest.

But wait! It gets worse! This "virtual person" at the other end of the cell phone conversation is actually nothing more than a stowaway or a freeloader because this "virtual person" never went to the trouble of buying a ticket like the rest of us.

Do now? OK, it's not a tie:

Improve customer service throughout:
- Car service
- Station service
- Reservation operations.

All of those are HR/Training issues!

John

quote:

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Originally posted by Chucky:
No Sutton, I am not kidding. Amtrak is at a very critical point now and it is up to all of us to insure its survival. Those of us who post to this forum are on the front lines of the battle and I would say that most of us are deeply concerned that long haul passenger travel will continue to exist and, perhaps flourish.

As you know, Sutton, a business is different than a service, and I consider city buses, commuter trains and Amtrak to be examples of a service. A service does not necessarily make a profit. In Albuquerque, the city buses only collect 18 percent of the revenue it requires in order to pay its bills. But you don't hear many people writing the papers to demand the end of city buses. If anything they want newer buses and more routes and you know what that means.

Getting back to your posting, however, I don't know if Americans are selfish slobs. One might actually be able to make an argument for such a comment. Think about what a bathroom on the Southwest Chief looks like when it leaves Los Angeles. Now think about what it looks like when it arrives in Chicago and you tell me how conscientious and considerate people are when it comes to the way they leave a bathroom....

but I do see definite virtue in helping to keep a bathroom clean, helping an Amtrak attendant keep the aisles clear of baggage and helping the waiters clear up my mess when I'm finished eating in the dining car.

Mr. Boyishcult, people are starting to ride the train in droves and its putting a definite strain on the system that did not formerly exist. And this demand for train service is simply not going away either. Everything changed since Sept. 11th and those people who rabidly hated Amtrak before that terrible day are now beginning to see that they are having to move on to some other cause because the American public wants train travel, both for recreational use and serious, long haul commuting.

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Chucky does make some very valid points. At this point, Amtrak is struggling as a viable form of modern transportation. It would be totally cool if the US passenger rail system were comparable to the European system. On my last trip, we dined with a couple from Germany and they were flabergasted at how inefficient our current passenger rail system is. They even told me that where they are from, if the train is late by even 15 minutes, they are reimbursed in Euros on the spot. I don't want to *** out Amtrak- I totally enjoyed my one and only trip- it had a great feeling of nostalgia for old time rail travel and the whole purpose of my trip was to take my little boy on a train ride because he loves trains so much. I hope that someday, Amtrak will have their own tracks and become a system of travel that will rival that of the airlines- seriously!!

I suppose there are two possible reasons why people don't take the train route between Chicago and Springfield.

#1 They would rather drive or fly. If this is the case, then perhaps a little bit more energy on your part might solve that problem. If you gave a damn, which I don't think you do, you could write letters to the editor of your state's great newspapers explaining to the clueless why train travel is such a viable option when it comes to commuting.

#2 There are too many trains running. Perhaps the number of trains should be in half so that there would be less waste in the system. I'm sure those unused train cars could be absorbed into Amtrak's system and put to good use.

I very may well be guilty of deviating the discussion from your original question but you, dear boy, are guilty of applying the pathetic state of the Chicago-Springfield route to other Amtrak routes that seem to be bulging at the seams and doing quite well. The Hiawatha, for example, seems to be doing quite well these days.

Now then, about those bathrooms. I believe I was guilty of plugging up all the toilets on one coach car of the Southwest Chief last time I rode the rails. I did not do it purposely. The toilet was practically overflowing (from other people's messes) and I was determined to make it flush. One good way to make it flush is to *close the lid* and then press the button. I think, however, that there was a paper towel in the toilet and that is what caused the problem.

A paper towel? A sanitary napkin? Come on now, this is 2004! Can't somebody come up with a system that can suck that stuff into the holding tank?

As far as customers cleaning up after themselves (and others). Yes, it looks like we're going to have to do it ourselves. So show me where the mops and cleaning fluids are and I'll get right on it. When the attendants find they don't have anything to do, maybe they'll lose their jobs and we'll be done with all that deadwood. In the meantime, I just want a clean bathroom, thank you.