I think it would be a good idea, because while you get less passengers per car than coach, I think they would sell very well due to the lower price. If dinner wasn't included, that would keep the First class sleepers at an advantage (and justify the higher price.)

Because of the need to have large washrooms, the older sleepers never had very high occupancy. The most I recall were 16 sections, i.e. 32 passengers. A "Chateau" series Via sleeper had beds for 25 prior to the addition of the shower room. The most common standard sleeper in Canada (as I believe it was in the U.S.) was the "12 and 1", the "1" being a drawing room. That car had a capacity of 27.

quote:

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Originally posted by David:
[B]All of Via Rail's ex-CPR sleepers (excluding the "Park" series observation-dome-lounge cars which have three double bedrooms and a drawing room)have the traditional open sections. They originally had four sections, but when rebuilt with HEP a shower room replaced one of them. [B]

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I completely forgot those VIA cars, having never been north of the border (since I missed the last run of Heritage sleepers on the Three Rivers, I'll have to look into the Canadian...). My only experience with open sections has been on Heavyweight cars in museum operations.

First, to lakeshorelimited's comments:

The standard European passenger railcar is designed to support 72 passengers. It has 12 comparments of six seats each, facing each other.

As an alternative, there are open bay (a la US) coaches with 4 seats abreast. Density is on the order of 72 passengers in what is close to an 85' car.

First class coaches, if they are newer, offer 9 comparments of 6 for 54 passengers, or 18 seats of 3 abreast in open bays, also for 54 passengers. If the cars are older, the compartments run 10 to a car, or 60 passengers.

Sleepers:
Let's start again with second class. It uses the 12 compartment system ... 6 racks in each compartment. YOU bring your own bedding. Facilities at the end of the hall.

1st class sleepers, which in Germany were called, a decade ago, Trans Euro Nach (TEN) cars ... one design I travelled aboard used the US double bedroom design of the early streamliner era ... upper and lower from a sofa along the wall, and an open sink/mirror combination with a "mini-chamberpot." Frankly, I used the in-room facility only for A end business. There were a couple of toilets along the corridor. The car also had a kitchenette compartment for the porter, who had standard pre-done meals available.

There were also newer cars where an individual bedroom had 3 berths.

Now, on to current Amtrak architecture:

A standard bedroom, viewliner or superliner, is a Pullman section ... 6'3" or so by 3'3." That footprint has not changed much in 150 years. Modern Amtrak standard bedrooms have thier heritage in "enclosed section" Pullman cars used on the UP/C&NW/SP experimental streamliners "City of Portland M-10001," "City of Los Angeles M-10002," and "City of San Francisco M-10004" from the later 30s.

The deluxe bedroom dates to the Pullman Compartment of the post-WWII era ... approximately 45 sq ft with enclosed toilet annex. The comparment, with the beds made down, had a chair still available to the passengers. The difference between then and now is the deluxe bedroom has a shower, Pullman compartments did not.

There is no real equivalency for the following accomodations:
Pullman Roomette: single bed with own sink and toilet, same footprint as a section.
Pullman Double bedroom: Appx 30 sq ft footprint, upper and lower, but just beds at night, no chair.
Pullman drawing room: 50-60 sq ft, accomodated 3 full size berths (2 lower, 1 upper) with private annex.
... contrast with Amtrak's family room, which has 2 full and two small berths and no facilities...
... contrast with Amtrak's handicapped room, which has close to footprint of a drawing room, but because of wheelchair needs, the space is allocated to being space, and has only an upper and a lower.

Hope this minor essay helps.

John

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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations

In the 1943 Car Builders Cyclopedia, Pullman-Standard showed a demo of a six-seat, six-berth compartment.

Looks remarkably like the European tourist sleepers of the present day.

John

Not quite!

"The standard European passenger railcar is designed to support 72 passengers. It has 12 comparments of six seats each, facing each other."
This is usually first class, second class usually has comparments of eight seats each, but they are numerous variations in this and the number of compartments per car.

"As an alternative, there are open bay (a la US) coaches with 4 seats abreast."
4 seats in second class, 3 in first, again generally.

"Sleepers:
Let's start again with second class. It uses the 12 compartment system ... 6 racks in each compartment. YOU bring your own bedding."
These are not sleepers but couchettes. Bedding IS provided on most of them. Again number of comparments vary. 2nd and 1st class sleepers are very different to these.

"1st class sleepers, which in Germany were called, a decade ago, Trans Euro Nach (TEN) cars"
Trans Euro Nach (TEN) is the marketing brand name for a range of sleeper services using a variety of stock in several western European countries.