I think an inauguration of service would be an overnight success and frequency would soon be at six trains Daily.

That's the problem.

Lest we forget, the UP is investor owned. The railroad is THEIR railroad, and they are "not exactly' receptive to a Federal Agency (i.e. Amtrak) telling 'em how to run it. This thought is "doubled in spades", or even in no-trump if there were to be public funding to increase capacity.

In short, even though thr route 'cries out" for service, it is just going to be a "non-happen".

Laughlin is sort of on the way to Las Vegas. Cars follow the same route, for the most part.

During our long car ride, I noticed that the highway to Vegas is being rebuilt, big time. Between the new highways is a lovely median that would be perfect for a new passenger railroad.

Now, it very well may be the case that such a railroad will be built when Hades freezes over. On the other hand, I spent a lot of time riding the Gold Line from Union Station to Pasadena: A one billion dollar light rail spur that, regretably is not attracting the commuter business it hoped for. (Lovely train, by the way.)

My point is two-fold: #1 Californians seem to be able to ante up the money when they really want to. #2 A train that is built for recreational purposes may attract more passengers than a commuter line, even if it is not running at 150+ miles per hour.

Before I left town, somebody had a discussion going about the California Surfliner. I believe I raised the question whether most people took the Surfliner for business or pleasure. I think this remains an important question to address before a Las Vegas to Los Angeles line is built.

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Reality Check:
As late as 1962 there were three+ separate passenger movements per day on the UP (source, UP PTT dtd Oct 28 1962:

City of LA/Challenger Domeliner

City of Saint Louis

Mail & Express 5&6 (did have coaches and Pullmans on it)

Las Vegas Holiday Special, formerly the City of Las Vegas. This ran daily during summer and Christmas break, and weekends the rest of the year.

By A-day, The last pre Amtrak passenger train was the "City of Everywhere" holding COLAs numbers (103-104) passing through WB late May 1, 1971, and EB late April 30, 1971.

UP did work to make a go of it. Current road (Cajor and Cima) requires major work to get above 35MPH max speeds on substantial grades.

Whither the $$,$$$,$$$ per construction mile? (Proposed answer below)

How are you going to make LA-LV convenient when I can jump from Burbank, Ontario, John Wayne, LAX, ad infinitum at virtually any hour of the day? OBTW, where are the Destination hotels relative to the old UP station on Frontier?? $20 taxi ride away, that's where. Have the capital for a new station?

Right now a rail passenger has to get from an outlying point (let's use Canoga Park or Palmdale as examples), INTO a station along the line ... which means LAUPT - COmmerce - San Berdoo. ONCE A DAY??

Whither the railcars to support this? Amtrak is stressed already and cannot support all services with Superliner that are supposed to have them. Whither the $$,$$$,$$$ for new trainsets?

I hate to pour water on the parade, but this is a major investment ... and it seems to me the Peeple's Republik of Kalifornia has a bigger economic house on fire right now than new rail service.

John
Calvert St Elementary, LACSD, 1968
Parkman Jr High, LAUSD, 1971
Taft High, LAUSD, 1974
BA UC Santa Barbara, 1978

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Another post in this thread:
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Truth in advertising time: I am a stockholder of UP. I want nothing that dilutes the value of that position.

You want a run from Los Angeles to Las Vegas?

OK.

First, get an interstate compact between Nevada and California. Allow Nevada Gaming Control Board to regulate gambling on the train. Create a rolling casino. Now you have an advantage over the airlines and the buses; you have the gamblers in play. Contract the casino side to one of the major houses. Take a profit fee that can be used to buy roadbed improvements.

Second, make I-15 a car/bus toll road. Charge 16 cents per mile (half the IRS standard for fear wear and tear per mile). 280 miles x .16 = 45 rounded dollars. Now you have a disincentive to automobile.

Do the same as a surtax for air. Take the operating cost per engine hour on a 737. Pro rate that across the actual occupancy. Tack that on to the passenger's fare. There's an air disincentive.

I don't think there is a better path over the Coast Range to get to the desert (in other words Cajon to Barstow). As slow as LAUPT to San Berdoo can be, over Cajon is just plain slow. Maybe you can use the money from the car tolls and the air tolls to help finance a new and lower path. Remember that Ralph Budd tunneled on the GN to lower its grade across the Cascades. You're not going to get below three hours transit, maybe 4. You may end up losing those savings if you branch cars out to other megalopolis destinations.

Last, find the equipment to do two-three RT per day, especially Friday morning to Monday night (heck maybe even Thursday morning).

Consider using the old PE lines in LA from downtown out towards LAX. Ditto Glendale. I don't know Orange County so well, there has to be a near-airport stop besides Fullerton. For that matter, if you can split "gambler's special" cars to San Diego and Santa Barbara...

Here's your d/o/g for the hunt: Sell the California Assembly/Senate and the Nevada Legislature.

Good luck with the political climate out there ...

John

What, pray-tell are you talking about?

All I asked was when Amtrak is going to again run a route to Las Vegas from LA!

Your question has obviously been raised many times in the past and PullmanCo's answers are right on the money.

Your ideas for creating disincentives for air and highway sound great, but the idea actually depresses me a bit given that they will never happen. Call me cynical, but I cannot imagine any such thing happening while the air and auto lobbies are so powerful.

In the days before "non-expansion", track improvements were made to the UP line in question, and a Talgo set was even brought to LA for demonstration (I think this was 1999.) The Talgo set even made at least one demonstration trip to sin city. Oddly, the story just sort of vanished about that time. I did also hear somewhere that the project was having trouble because of environmental impact concerns related to further track improvements. You know how uncooperative those pesky desert tortoises can be!

There is also a pie-in-the-sky mag-lev idea being bandied about right now.

That is to say, wake up and understand what the economist was talking about when he talked about acting with ENLIGHTENED self-interest. We are seeing a lot of self interest, but very little enlightenment.

Given someone to pony up the money for the trains, LA to LV passenger service could happen with reasonable cooperation from where it should be coming. UP has the way, they just do not have the will.

However, as I noted earlier, I believe the service would soon be at a level of six trains Daily.

The 'access" noted by Mr. Pullman I do not forsee as a problem. Using a routing of ATSF-Yermo-UP, or route of the SW Chief, service would traverse the "back yards' of both SNA and ONT airports. With six trains daily, there of course would be connections with Surfliners either at Fullerton from San Diego, or at LAUS from "Saint Barbie".

At the Meadows, the expansion (sort of on hold since 9/11) of The Strip is moving Southward (N Vegas and Downtown are pretty much reserved for the "Vegas, 3 Days, $199" crowd). Accordingly, I would envision intermediate stops first around the Airport ("Luxo" Mandalay Bay), and Flamingo Road (Rio adjacent to the tracks; Ballys, Belaggio, Caesar's, and Flamingo on the corner)before tying up Downtown.

Lastly, I would not even consider an entry to the market unless the sponsors were prepared to operate multiple frequencies from the "get go". The apparent success of the Downeaster, as well as the proven success of Southwest Airlines is reson enough to establish that one train or one flight simply will not "cut it".

A final thought on my "one flight" comment. As an example, allow me to cite American Trans Air. This airline originally was solely in the charter business (tour operators, military), but about ten years ago, they decided to enter the scheduled market. That entry was "not exactly" an overnight success, and I would dare say that a hotshot MBA would have looked at their business plan and noted that one tri weekly flight into a vacation market just wont "cut it'.

Well it didn't, so of interest that airline kind of "reinvented" itsef. Now, known simply as ATA and with a little bit of help from a sucessful lottery draw for slots at LGA and DCA, has become the "low cost business traveler alternative", complete with multiple frequencies in business markets, albeit using MDW here in Chi instead of ORD.

"If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen'.

Whither the capital funds to equip?

Whither the capital funds to build new track?

We won't even discuss open rails here...

John

quote:

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Originally posted by George Harris:


Given someone to pony up the money for the trains, LA to LV passenger service could happen with reasonable cooperation from where it should be coming. UP has the way, they just do not have the will.

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Your first two questions are not mine to answer. The issue at hand includes the assumption that the service is wanted enough for California/Nevada or someone else to provide the equipment. UP has the way. For imporvements necessary to expeditious oeration of the passenger service, same sources as equipment. But it requires a COOPERATIVE landlord. That we are not seeing with UP.

Would suggest that all interested go to www.bytrain.org which is the North Carolina DOT site for their rail division. Admittedly the state has one advantage there in that they originally built (in the 1850's) the railroad and own the right of way. Norfolk Southern is lessee as sucessor to Southern Railway's lease beginning in 1890 something and operates the freight service. There has been a consistent program of improvements by the state that have certainly benefitted NS, but they had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting them. If anything, it appears that UP's mindset is much worse that NS's ever was. In North Carolina the state has added signals, installed higher speed turnouts on sidings, lengthened sidings, and made alignment adjustments to increase speeds. Most of these have been in the range of speeds that also improve the situation for freight service. And, all this is being done of a line with only two state-supported trains a day, with some on parts that also host the Crescent and Silver Star.

I do not see how you or anyone else can believe that things like re-double tracking the Yolo Causeway and the rail replacements on some of the old SP lines that were done by the stae of California did not benefit freight service.

I, however, am now retired from practicing accountany as a CPA.

This Forum as well as the two other "majors", namely railroad.net and trainorders, have much insightful discussion presented in a mature and respectful manner. In no way are any of the "majors" some kind of UseNet group, where the objective sems to be how to insult someone in the most stupid assinine way possible.

Of interest, both other majors noted, are presently having discussion, in which both Mr. Pullman and I are participating, on this topic.

I must confess, Mr. Pojon, I am perplexed why you were surprised, and possibly even ired, when you got thoughtful answers to your perfectly appropriate inquiry?

Many thanks for your explanation. May GOD forgive me for reacting and for seeking a nice succinct answer to a simple question.

Policy and operations of passenger rail are never merely simple...to the initiate.

May we introduce you to the Spanish Inquisition????

John

I used to make industrial and informational and teaching films for Amtrak on contract as a film producer and I am quite familiar with the Amtrak bureacracy in Washington. It's more fun to ride Amtrak and pour over timetables than to get involved with Amtrak policies, problems and executive personnel. I spent many years working for Amtrak and it's public relations.