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Florida has been, historically, a hot bed for tourists and yet Amtrak is only retreating from the state. How does having the second or third largest tourist economy in the nation keep pushing Amtrak away? Living in Florida, and riding each of the trains here (sadly, including the Sunset) very often, I know that the ridership in and to the state are high, and the rooms are often booked early. And yet, the service here is only reduced. Of course the lifeline to Chicago was cut several years ago (which only makes it more difficult for passengers headed east), Florida to New York service is shrinking (but still just as busy), and the Sunset's two/three day a week schedule is tough to work around. On top of this, whereas other densly populated states such as California and those in the Northeast have commuter and intercity service, Florida lacks any outside Miami-Dade. Any sort of Amtrak-run intercity service would be heavily ridden. Riding the Sunset, even when it is several hours late, many people in the Panhandle still rely on it for service. I know that even a basic Miami - Jacksonville, Tampa - Jacksonville, Jacksonville - Pensacola system would be popular. Of course, we all know what Amtrak's logic is (it doesn't have one). Please try to explain the reason for this situation and add any comments if you have one.
Posts: 82 | Registered: Aug 2004
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As an annual "snowbird" visitor to Florida, I too have noted the decline in Amtrak service.
"Three a day' has now become two, and considering that the remaining trains seem to run on each other's 'markers" as well as the 'trial horse' Meteor/Star from last summer, I think the writing is on the wall that "one a day" is where we are heading.
Further, with the CSX/Sunset's frequency now reduced to "two a week' and with the uncertainty of the 1-NOL-58 connection and the absurdity of the 59-NOL-2, anything resembling "direct service' to Chicago is history.
I don't think the idea that "hey what other LD market has more than one a day" is a defense. Those of us around here who have been loyal to rail service over the years and "knew it when' (i.e. pre-Amtrak) must be appalled at the apparent effort by Amtrak to "run off' the business, so that "one a day uniformity" will exist.
For what it be worth, I only made one trip to the Sunshine State this year instead of my usual two. For the one trip, I used Auto Train in both directions. However, I must wonder if the "opaque Star' from last year, the effective killing of 1-NOL-58 depriving me of a diverse routing in my preferred Superliner equipment, as well as the pathetic looking '#91 Star' @ SFS that I observed from SFA awaiting my auto, and the not much better looking #97 Meteor @ KIS why I decided one trip was enough this year. Never mind the $2K I seem to put into the Florida economy with each trip (and on occasion "doubled" by my Sister).
"Less than happy 'bout this one...think y'all can tell".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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If I'm not mistaken, the largest share of funding for the very successful Surfliner trains here in California comes from the state itself and not the feds. Perhaps you could put a little pressure on the folks up in Tally.
Frank in sunny SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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That's just the thing. As you may are may not know, a few years ago, an amendment was passed to the Florida Constitution, requiring the state to create a high speed rail system. This year the amendment was removed, for better or for worse. Although I love trains, I'm not so sure that the state could have payed for the entire system (tracks, electricity, staff, etc). The one thing, though, that I don't understand is why they haven't looked at other options. Florida citizens and even many lawmakers are very interested in commuter rail in Florida, but what they don't understand is that it doesn't have to be high speed, or entirely state owned. A state wide commuter system with constant speeds of 70 to 90 mph could easily be created in corrolation with Amtrak. I guess we're just stuck watching our service slowly disappear.
Posts: 82 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Those of us of a "certain age" can remember the East Coast service to Florida just before Amtrak:
Two NYP-MIA trains, an NYP - St. Petersburg train (with sections for Naples and Venice), and the Silver Star that still served both coasts -- plus two local trains providing day service to the Carolinas. Each of the through Florida trains carried two full diners, plus separate lounges for sleeper and coach passengers.
I've never forgiven Amtrak for gutting the Florida service, and the current trains with two sleepers, diner, lounge, and four coaches are pathetic remnants of the 22-car trains that once ran.
The fantastic growth of Florida since 1971 would seem to imply a demand for intrastate service. The "Silver Palm", funded by the state as a daylight MIA-TPA train, didn't last long in the early 1980s, however. Perhaps it's time to try again.
The state and localities are investing a *lot* of money in the railroad between WPB and MIA. Tri-Rail will be providing commuter service on a 20-minute headway all day as of mid-2006, on a newly double-tracked railroad. Perhaps this can serve as the starting point for intra-Florida long distance service.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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I still don't understand why the general population of Florida voted for a high-speed rail amendment in 2000, but then turned around in 2004 and voted to revoke the high-speed rail amendment which just passed 4 years ago.
BTW, I too remember the early days of AMTRAK when the NYP-Fla. trains had 2 diners, one for coach and one for 1st class -- I believe the coach diner was a "lunch-counter" type diner on I believe the Silver Meteor back then.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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The Hi Speed Amendment was dreamed up and passed with the Tech Boom in Mind, once the economy dived it was easier to kill when nothing had been built. Amtrak will improve in the South when Amtrak can share commuter tracks rather then with the frieght lines.
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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What I really miss is a train going to Florida. If Amtrak were to bring back the Floridian I would probably head to Florida two or three times a year, maybe more. The whole two day ride to the east coast and then south just makes the trip to time-consuming to do that often.
Posts: 149 | From: Joliet, IL USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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I too, Miss Vickie, would welcome a direct Chi-Fla train - note where I am from.
Ironically, the Floridian was a train on which, especially based on a Nov 1977 passage, that i thought Amtrak endeavored to put it's "best foot forward".
However, during the ensuing 28 years since that trip, freight traffic has "dramatically" increased with no commensurate increase in capacity. In short, it is all that CSX and NS can do to move their existing traffic over the road, without having a passenger train interfering with their operations.
The other problem is that even if there were adequate capacity to "host" a passenger train, there is no route over which rail travel times could be competitive with lawful and reasonable driving. This is in contrast with the East Coast, where rail times are quite competitive.
When the railroads ran a train, the City of Miami, over a route that has since been truncated, the 37 hour Chi-Mia schedule was competitive. However, at that time, there were still segments of I-75 that had not been completed. I recall one segment, namely from Rome to Atlanta that had not been completed as of 1972 - quite the "rolling parking lot" as I well recall.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Norman, I quite agree that going by train would take longer than driving, but surely it would take less time than the two days presently required to travel from CHI to NYP/WAS to FTL.
We seem to lack the stamina to drive the whole distance without a break, so we end up overnighting just north of Atlanta. This maked driving a two day trip, also.
Of course, our last trip by rail set us back about $2500 for the two of us so we paid dearly for being taken on the round about route.
On the other hand, if we head due SE and end up sitting on a siding for hours at a time watching the freights go by I suppose it could take us longer than two days to get to Florida! I do miss the Floridian, though.
Posts: 149 | From: Joliet, IL USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Vicki: Mr. Norman, I quite agree that going by train would take longer than driving, but surely it would take less time than the two days presently required to travel from CHI to NYP/WAS to FTL.
We seem to lack the stamina to drive the whole distance without a break, so we end up overnighting just north of Atlanta. This maked driving a two day trip, also.
Of course, our last trip by rail set us back about $2500 for the two of us so we paid dearly for being taken on the round about route.
On the other hand, if we head due SE and end up sitting on a siding for hours at a time watching the freights go by I suppose it could take us longer than two days to get to Florida! I do miss the Floridian, though.
I would love to see direct Chicago to Florida rail service again but, when comparing total trip lengths, it's important to remember that for most of it's Amtrak life the Amtrak 'Floridian', departed Chicago around 9:00pm, was overnight to Louisville and was overnight a second time from Montgomery, AL to just below Jacksonville with a 2nd day afternoon arrival in Miami.
This is not significantly faster (maybe four or five hours or so) than the Capitol Limited-Silver Meteor connection through DC.
NOW-----If we could get something like the old Southwind schedule with a morning departure from Chicago, a single night on the train, and a Miami arrival early the second evening we would have some significant improvement over the via DC bit....
David Pressley
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: I would love to see direct Chicago to Florida rail service again but, when comparing total trip lengths, it's important to remember that for most of it's Amtrak life the Amtrak 'Floridian', departed Chicago around 9:00pm, was overnight to Louisville and was overnight a second time from Montgomery, AL to just below Jacksonville with a 2nd day afternoon arrival in Miami. This is not significantly faster (maybe four or five hours or so) than the Capitol Limited-Silver Meteor connection through DC. David Pressley [/QB]
Hmmmm. . .I don't remember it taking that long. Of course, it's been a while, and I'm getting to that age where I tend to forget things. . .and we had so much FUN on the Floridian that time just flew by. . I agree, four or five hours isn't much difference.
Posts: 149 | From: Joliet, IL USA | Registered: Aug 2004
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Just out of curiosity, would it be feasible to split the "City of New Orleans" at say Fulton, KY and run a section to Florida? The only downside, after reviewing the schedule is that it would have to be altered, but nonetheless, would that be a possibility?
Posts: 82 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: it's important to remember that for most of it's Amtrak life the Amtrak 'Floridian', departed Chicago around 9:00pm, was overnight to Louisville and was overnight a second time from Montgomery, AL to just below Jacksonville with a 2nd day afternoon arrival in Miami. This is not significantly faster (maybe four or five hours or so) than the Capitol Limited-Silver Meteor connection through DC. David Pressley
Hmmmm. . .I don't remember it taking that long. Of course, it's been a while, and I'm getting to that age where I tend to forget things. . .and we had so much FUN on the Floridian that time just flew by. . I agree, four or five hours isn't much difference. [/QB]
Hi Vicki,
Just double-checked the old timetable collection. In March 1979 the southbound Floridian was scheduled out of Chicago at 9:30pm and into Miami at 1:10pm the second afternoon......I guess that's more like a 6-8 hour difference but still not hugely significant when you're on the train 2 nights. Still, my memory of that train isn't what it used to be either.....I do recall coming face-to-face with a traffic light in Bedford, IN from the dome of the Floridian in the middle of the night in 1979!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Fulton was where the City of Miami diverged from the IC "main line". Unfortunately, it is my understanding that parts of that route have been "truncated".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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North American is right about overall Florida service. There should be more, not less. The City of Miami was my favorite train with its beautiful chocolate and orange cars, its dome coach, and observation car. The old South Wind hit the bigger cities north of B'ham but the City had the more direct route south of that point and served somewhat larger towns until jax where the routes rejoined.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Obviously the brown and orange City of Miami was my favorite train too. It went through my hometown of Columbus GA. I took it quite a few times to the abovementioned Fulton KY to go to my grandparents farm near Mayfield. On one occasion I took it south to Jacksonville to visit a friend. I understand it was discontinued on Amtrak Day, but I had abandoned Columbus 5 yrs earlier and was ignorant of the loss.
Posts: 326 | From: San Antonio Texas USA | Registered: Dec 2003
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Anybody remember the local service from Miami to Wildwood (daily) which consisted of 3 coaches and the Florida East Coast service from Miami to Jacksonville making all local service along the coast to JAX (also consisting of 3 coaches)? The last train on the Florida East Coast was I think in Feb. 1965.
Posts: 287 | From: Palatka, FL, USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Unfortunately, only the Dixie Flagler route remains intact. Since this train died sometime in the 50's, for those who don't remember this ran Chicago - Evansville - Nashville - Chatanooga - Atlanta - Manchester GA - Waycross - Jacksonville - Miami. Unfortunately, this was at that time the slowest trackage and the schedule made to match the City of Miami / South Wind by being given absolute priority over everything else. Since that time, all the lines involved have gotten busier and the superelevation on the curves, which were superabundant south of Nashville, reduced to keep the pigs and stacks upright. To attempt to add a passenger train to this route would probably result in another Sunset Limited situation.
The wonderful City of Miami Route, and it was a beautiful train in the early 60's, 20 plus cars behind 4 E units in the wintertime, has serious pieces gone. The former IC line from Fulton south is now in part a short line and in part gone. Not sure if the signals remain between Fulton and Corinth or what the track conditions aer. They were not great in the 60's. If you wanted to go that way, you would have to keep on going south of Corinth on teh former GM&O (now KCS) to Tupelo, Mississippi and then the former Frisco (now BNSF) from there to Birmingham. This would be both longer and slower than the old ICRR line to Haleyville, Alabama. South of Birmingham, you could follow the old CofG to at least Columbus, GA, but then what? I thought that the old ACL from Albany, Georgia to Waycross was gone. Not sure what you would do to get to Jacksonville.
Now, the South Wind line would probably be the best bet. Chicago to Indianapolis, the Cardinal route which is not the original route adn is somewhat slower, but without rerailing Indianapolils to Louisville, forget it. Remember the Kentucky Cardinal? The former L&N to Mongomery probably could handle it in close to the schedule of the Pan, if not the SW. But, what is the state of the old ACL line from there to Waycross? It is still there so far as I know, and still unsignaled, but is it operable at 55 to 59 mph?
No, without serious money spent on track and capacity improvements, a reasonable Chicago to Florida schedule is not likely to happen.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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The "City of Miami" route is still largely intact. NS bought the line from Fulton to Birmingham (the last bit, from Jasper, was on NS/SouRy rights anyway) from IC a few years back. The only piece that's gone is from Red Bay, AL to Jasper. That "cuts the corner", while NS runs through Sheffield (which has a major yard), so NS routes everything from Corinth to Sheffield on the Memphis line, then down to Jasper and Birmingham.
For a while, BHM - Columbus was more or less "rail banked" by NS, but my understanding is that it's being re-opened. And I think COLS - Albany - Jax is still intact and under NS ownership. Don't know about track conditions or signals.
On the "South Wind" route, right you are, the Louisville & Indiana needs new rail. South of Louisville the former L&S is very busy to Montgomery. Not sure what kind of timekeeping you'd have.
Montgomery to Waycross is a line CSX has gone back and forth about. Currently about six trains a day use it, at 49 MPH, so it would be a pretty good choice for Amtrak. But as you know, things change constantly...
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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The portion of the IC "City of Miami" line between Columbus, GA and Americus, GA is owned by Georgia Southwestern. I had the opportunity to ride this line on a freight a few years ago and the track condition is decent, however, I doub't speeds of over 45-50 mph could be attained. Nevertheless, for this small strech, those speeds would be adequate.
Posts: 82 | Registered: Aug 2004
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The City of Miami route form Fulton Ky to Birmingham used tracks of four railroads. I do not have a schedule in front of me, but the times and lines were about as follows: Fulton Kentucky to Jackson, Tennessee, ICRR about 65 miles, about 1 hr 10 minutes Jackson, TN to Corinth Mississippi (Ruslor Jct. just north of Corinth) GM&O about 55 miles, about 1 h 10 minutes Corinth MS to Haleyville, Alabama, ICRR about 70 miles, built about 1910, about 1 hr 10 minutes Haleyville AL to Jasper AL, Southern RR, about 40 miles, about 1 hr 20 minutes Jasper AL to Birmingham AL, Frisco RR, about 40 miles, about 1 hr 15 minutes.
In about 1964 I was on a Tennessean from Knoxville to Memphis that got detoured by way of Birmingham due to a derailment on the Tennessee River bridge at Decatur AL. The run time on the all Southern line from Birmingham to Sheffield AL was about 5 hours, but the distace is only about 135 miles. Two hours of that was getting from Birmingham to Jasper on the Southern line, which is both longer and more crooked than the Frisco, but even if we consider running via the ex-Frisco BNSF, we would still have a Birmingham to Corinth MS time of about 5 hr 30 min versus the old city of Miami Route time of about 3h 50 m. The Frisco time for the KC Florida Special between Tupelo and Birmingham was on the order of 4 hours, and even if the now KCS ex GM&O line from there to Corinth were upgraded to run 59 mph (I believe it is now a 25 mph line) you would still end up with about a 5 hour run B'han to Corinth that way. Then consider that Fulton to Corinth is probably no longer signaled, and certainly no longer has the 75 mph speed limit it had in IC passenger days, the time Fulton to B'ham would probably be more on the order of 8.5 to 9 hours instead of the 6 hours it was before. If it is 9 hours, you could probably make that schedule through Memphis. That being the case, it could be run with the City of New Orleans north of Memphis, and become a resurrection of the KC Florida Special south thereof. Memphis - Birmingham - Atlanta - Macon - Jacksonville, through either Valdosta or Savannah.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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This is very interesting and thanks to all for current and "back in the day" knowledge. Since I travel from Detroit to FLA, I am more a Capital Limited to Washington kind of guy, and I really do enjoy that layover in DC. Even on a bad day, Union Station itself can be a theme park event. I do enjoy pushing the envelop of time on either the subway system or just going for a nice long walk to the Capitol/Mall area during the wait for the southbound freight. I find it hard to pass that one up. So far only had one squeaker connection at DC w/Amtrak and only one mishap in using the Metro to return to Union Station. But, those stories are what travel is all about. Outside of mine and my wife's personal connection habits, I agree there should be some real north-south connections besides, east coast, west coast and the Mississippi. CHI to MIA is probably the best one to try, but maybe the west is due one beyond Texas Eagle territory.
THE I-75 AUTOTRAIN
My personal favorite would be what I call the "I-75 Break-Time AutoTrain," from Michigan to someplace near, somewhat centrally located, Tampa area (not Sanford, again). That unending boring drive up and down I-75 is getting to me. Anything to sitback and view America at SEE level. I know, I know. But, if enough of us call our Senators/Representatives who knows.
Posts: 39 | From: Detroit, MI, USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Given the current speeds available, the question on the I75 Autotrain would become, "Is there a market for a two nights one day Autotrain" About the only practical operation woudl be a late evening departure from / early morning arrival at Sanford and a north end portion somewhere about say Toledo. A one night schedule would leave you with almost no day left on either end.
A Twoin Cities - Kansas City - Dallas / Fort Worth - split there with a Houston leg and a San Antonio leg could be done with a decent run time with one MAJOR difficulty. The lines are heavily traveled Union Pacific lines, and we know how well they do at getting anything across the line on anything resembling a reliable schedule. (The short route would be the former MSP to KC on the former CRIP via Des Moines, KC to FtW on the former MKT, then on the current Amtk route to SA and the former SP via Corsicana to Houston.)
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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