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Does anyone know of a good website that has a pre-1979 Amtrak route map on it? Before they got rid of routes such as the North Coast Hiawatha. Usually whenever I read about the old trains all I get is these descriptions of what the route basically was, but I can never exactly picture the routes that were followed.
Posts: 97 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Empire Builder - I have a book at home called "Journey to Amtrak," which I believe has the original route maps in it. I don't remember who the publisher is, but I will look for that info when I go home tonight, and will let you know later.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Thanks, STLBoomer. I'd read about the Floridian but not realised its route between Birmingham, AL and Jacksonville, FL. Also interesting to note the "southern" Empire Builder and the Newton, KS, to Houston, TX / Tex-Mex border. What were those trains?
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Well from the information provided one of my curiosities have not yet been answered. Going across Minnesota, has the Empire Builder always had its current route through St. Cloud and was it the North Coast Hiawatha that ran through Willmar, Morris, and Breckenridge....or did the Empire Builder run through those towns and was then rerouted through St. Cloud with the North Coast Hiawatha ended? It's just a sort of point of curiosity since Morris and Breckenridge are, from what I can tell, the two closest cities to my hometown to ever be served by Amtrak, so I'm wondering which train it was.
Posts: 97 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Think Great Northern and Northern Pacific prior to their merger into Burlington Northern. The Empire Builder, both as GN and Amtrak, used the Willmar route -GN's mainline to Seattle. Pre-Amtrak, GN ran the Western Star on a secondary line MSP-St. Cloud-Fargo that parallels I-94, now abandoned. The Western Star also ran to Grand Forks, while the Empire Builder used the GN mainline straight from Fargo to Minot.
NP's premier train to Seattle was the North Coast Limited which ran on their mainline through St. Cloud to Fargo. This became Amtrak's North Coast Hiawatha. Both trains used the current ex-Milwaukee RR "Hiawatha" route MSP-CHI, hence the name. Neither Amtrak train went to Portland, but the Pioneer ran Salt Lake-Portland-Seattle.
When the North Coast Hiawatha was discontinued, Amtrak switched the Empire Builder to the ex-NP route MSP-Fargo.
The NCH left CHI at 9:30am and arrived MSP at 8pm. The EB left CHI at 1:40pm and got to MSP at midnight, both on the same route but with slightly different station stops. Twice daily service MSP-CHI was nice. For a brief time after the NCH was axed, a single level train was operated CHI-MSP-Duluth, originating early morning at both end points. The MSP-Duluth train was first called the Arrowhead and then the North Star.
I still have a 1977 timetable of all Chicago-West Coast routes and a North Coast Hiawatha route guide.
Willmar, Morris, and Breckenridge were served in the middle of the night in both directions. By the way, what is your hometown? I am a lifelong Twin Citian who was a train fanatic as a child in the 50's. I collected timetables, so that is how I know this stuff. The Western Star was the closest passenger train to my house.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Newton-Ft. Worth route was part of what was originally Santa Fe's Chicago-Houston 'Texas Chief'. This train became Amtrak's 'Lone Star' and survived until 1979.
Amtrak's Chicago-Miami route known as the 'Floridian' was originally the 'South Wind'.
I'd suggest that you do a search for 'Amtrak Timetables' on eBay. Periodically you can find 1970's era timetables for just a few dollars. I think you would find these interesting.
Also, the book mentioned earlier, "Journey to Amtrak" was published and produced by Kalmbach; the same folks who do Trains Magazine and Model Railroader.
Happy hunting!!!!
David Pressley
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I see the Floridian didn't go through Atlanta (and there was still no Chattanooga Choo Choo, how sad!)--I didn't realize it had not. I think Amtrak desperately needs a Florida-to-Chicago that stops in Atlanta (and Nashville) and find it disgraceful Nashville turned that gorgeous old station into a hotel. I also think Amtrak should NEVER have done away with the Wyoming route and the "southern Empire Builder" train that went through Bismarck--didn't these make Mt Rushmore and Yellowstone reasonably accessible by train? It's just a disgrace that they aren't; don't we want overseas tourists to visit them?
In these days of soaring fuel prices, it sure would be nice to have more trains!!!
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Empire Builder - I found the books I was telling you about yesterday. "Journey to Amtrak" was indeed published by Kalmbach Publishing in 1972 -- I don't know if it's still available or not. Also, I have a couple AMTRAK "annuals" which I thought were originally published by the Passenger Train Journal folks, but they were actually published buy an outfit known as "Rail Transportation Archives." I have the 1978-79 annual, which has a route map from that period, plus a listing of the consists on the various trains which were used then, and a complete listing of the rolling stock AMTRAK had at that time.
To Sojourner -- just a comment on your last post. Yes the North Coast Hiawatha had a stop at Livingston, Montana, which was the stop for Yellowstone National Park. It did NOT however stop anywhere near Mount Rushmore.
--Rich K
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by sojourner: I see the Floridian didn't go through Atlanta (and there was still no Chattanooga Choo Choo, how sad!)--I didn't realize it had not. I think Amtrak desperately needs a Florida-to-Chicago that stops in Atlanta (and Nashville) and find it disgraceful Nashville turned that gorgeous old station into a hotel.
There actually was a good bit of discussion around 1978 about rerouting the 'Floridian' south of Nashville to serve Chattanooga, Atlanta, and Macon. From Macon it would have veered over to Savannah and joined the Silver Service route on into Florida.
Such a routing would have utilized Louisville & Nashville rails (former NC&St.L for the serious railfans) Nashville-Atlanta and then former Central of Georgia rails on to Macon and Savannah.
A direct route to Jacksonville from Atlanta was not available for this train because Southern Railway had not yet joined Amtrak. In fact, this may have also complicated Amtrak's access to Southern Railway's Peachtree Station in Atlanta.
Of course with the fall 1978 through 1979 edition of eliminate Amtrak, talk of rerouting this train soon turned to talk of eliminating it altogehter. The Southern Railway issue soon became moot with the 'Southern Crescent' being turned over to Amtrak February 1, 1979.
A direct train from Chicago to Florida is, perhaps, the largest void in the Amtrak system as we know it today. The absence of service to Las Vegas is an equal travesty.
David Pressley
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by stlboomer: The "southern" Empire Builder was the "North Coast Hiawatha," 1971-1979. Here's some more information:
Thanks. I was thinking that the NCH was a short distance train, which is why I didn't make the connection with previous comments! Interesting to note that the SEA-CHI journey times are about the same as 49 years ago, albeit with different routing! Progress?
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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A couple of other points. The North Coast Hiawatha, while using the former NP for most of its route, ran via Wenatchee and the Cascade Tunnel to Seattle. The Empire Builder ran via Pasco and Yakima, over Stampede Pass.
Also, the last Chicago -- Florida train to run through Atlanta was the Dixieland, which ceased operation sometime in the early 1960s. It ran via C&EI, Evansville, Nashville, and Chattanooga to Atlanta, thence through Cordele to Jacksonville.
The Royal Palm, which lasted until about 1967, also served Atlanta, but it originated in Cicinnati with through cars from Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland.
Amtrak basically limited itself to routes still in operation on May 1, 1971 in setting up the original network. So if there was no service on 5/1/71, there probably is still no service today.
The only exception I'm able to think of is Boston -- Portland, which vanished long before 1971, but is now running again.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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I don't easily give away information on my hometown due to my concerns about internet anonymity. I'll make an exception this time, but I'll just word it in a way only railfan would care to look it up. We'll just say I'm from what was the western most town on the western branch from Morris. I'm sure with your maps you could figure it out. Posts: 97 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:Originally posted by rresor: Amtrak basically limited itself to routes still in operation on May 1, 1971 in setting up the original network. So if there was no service on 5/1/71, there probably is still no service today.
The only exception I'm able to think of is Boston -- Portland, which vanished long before 1971, but is now running again.
There are two other cases, I believe, of current Amtrak service on routes that were freight only by 5/1/71....
The current 'Texas Eagle' route on 5/1/71 had just a coach only remnant train operating St. Louis to Little Rock. The line was freight only beyond Little Rock. It was 1973 or 1974 before Amtrak service was established between St. Louis and Ft. Worth. Dallas, if you recall, was not served by the original Amtrak system.
The Greensboro-Raleigh-Selma segment served by the 'Carolinian' and 'Palmetto' went freight only in early 1964 when Southern Railway discontinued their Greensboro-Goldsboro train. Trains returned in 1984 with the experimental NCDOT 'Carolinian'.
David Pressley
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by rresor: Also, the last Chicago -- Florida train to run through Atlanta was the Dixieland, which ceased operation sometime in the early 1960s. It ran via C&EI, Evansville, Nashville, and Chattanooga to Atlanta, thence through Cordele to Jacksonville. . . . . . The only exception I'm able to think of is Boston -- Portland, which vanished long before 1971, but is now running again.
Mr. Resor, You are seldom in error, but there are two here.
The Dixieland / Dixie Flagler, the every third day alternate to the City of Miami and South Wind died in either 1956 or 1957. The much older Dixie Flyer, two nights and a day Chicago to Jacksonville, lasted to about 1965 north of Atlanta, with the overnight Atlanta to Jacksonville portion lasting about another year. I believe it was possible to go via Atlanta using the Georgian to Atlanta and an unnamed day train from there to Jacksonville, but it was not a through train. The C&EI discontinued their portion of the Georgian in either 1967 or 1968.
Missouri Pacific had discontinued the Texas Eagle in the mid to late 60's with the last piece, St. Louis to Texarkana going away in 1967 to 1969, not sure exactly. Let's say when it started back under Amtrak, MoPac was a most unwilling host and kept it to freight train speed limits for several years, this on a main that south of Poplar Bluff was mostly 136RE CWR on which the MoPac has allowed 79 mph for passengers pre-Amtrak. Even today the maximum speed is still 75 mph, so far as I know.
Back to the Atlanta route: A few years ago I checked the current speed limits Nashville to Atlanta in an ETT. Given the speed reductions due to less super in curves, etc., it is doubtful that the 8 hour schedule of the Dixie Flyer could be achieved, and there is no hope for the 6 hour schedule of the Georgian and Dixie Flagler. This is neglecting that this line is heavily congested with freight trains. Also, we are looking at a rail distance of 287 miles and a road distance of about 260.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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The 1977 route map is fascinating but puzzling - there appears to be no Pioneer route from Salt Lake City-Boise-Portland, nor the Desert Wind from LA - Las Vegas - SLC, and no Sunset Ltd route between New Orleans and Florida. Did these come later, and in in case of the first two, prove short-lived?
Posts: 395 | From: england | Registered: Sep 2002
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The "Pioneer" and the "Desert Wind" operated 1979-1997. From 1991-1997 the "Pioneer" was extended to Denver, CO via Cheyenne, WY.
The "Sunset Limited" was a Southern Pacific train, Los Angeles-New Orleans. Amtrak continued its operation in 1971. On April 4, 1993 it was extended east to Miami, since cut back to Orlando.
Here's an iteresting link on present and former Amtrak routes:
posted
Empire Builder: I am in total agreement with keeping personal info private, and I applaud you for asserting that right.
Some more interesting stuff from my 1977 timetable:
The North Coast Hiawatha ran only 3 days a week west of St. Paul from Sept-June, but always daily MSP-CHI. I remember when it sat overnight in the MSP depot.
The daily 1977 Pioneer originated in Salt Lake City, where it left 45 minutes after the Denver & Rio Grande non-Amtrak tri-weekly passenger train from Denver arrived -at a different station. But eastbound it missed the connection by an hour.
The San Francisco (now California) Zephyr, which ran through Wyoming, connected with the Pioneer at Ogden (skipping SLC) in both directions. UP must have run trains on time in those days.
Amtrak Nostalgia: My 2nd ride ever on Amtrak ever was in the 70's on the North Coast Hiawatha, MSP-Livingston, MT with our bikes as free checked baggage. We biked thru Yellowstone Park and back to Bozeman. The eastbound NCH at Bozeman was annulled due to flooding of the Yellowstone River, and we were bussed to Miles City. The NCH was rerouted on ex-Milwaukee trackage thru Montana to Miles City. The conductor said he had to walk ahead of the train on some portions of the track that had not been used in some time. Those were the days. I would pay anything to be on such a run now.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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I am very jealous of all of you who took those train trips on lines that don't operate now but operated back in the 70s (though I'm not quite so jealous of the bustition!)
I have another question: would it be feasible for a train to travel from Nashville to Chattanooga to Atlanta to Savannah (or maybe even just from Atlanta to Savannah), where it could hook up with the Florida routes? Maybe the state of Georgia might invest something in cross-state trains one of these days to do something about fuel costs (instead of closing schools!!!)
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by sojourner: I am very jealous of all of you who took those train trips on lines that don't operate now but operated back in the 70s
I have another question: would it be feasible for a train to travel from Nashville to Chattanooga to Atlanta to Savannah (or maybe even just from Atlanta to Savannah), where it could hook up with the Florida routes? Maybe the state of Georgia might invest something in cross-state trains one of these days to do something about fuel costs (instead of closing schools!!!)
Very feasible. The former Louisville & Nashville (now CSX) line from Nashville to Atlanta via Chattanooga is in very good shape.....albeit heavily used by through freight trains. The Norfolk Southern (former Southern and Central of Georgia lines) line Atlanta-Macon-Savannah is also still in place. The old Atlanta-Savannah passenger train was called the 'Nancy Hanks' and made the trip in about six hours until being discontinued April 30, 1971.
As for that closing schools to save gas thing...How much you wanna bet that half the high schools in Georgia will still have away football games Friday night?
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Georgia has passenger plans, but at this point they are going virtually no where. Atlanta to Macon on the old CofG line is being considered as an early possibility as it is lightly traveled by freight being 102 miles long versus the ex Southern line being 88 miles long. During passenger days, schedules were almost identical at about 2 hours either route. I beleve some work is required to allow consistent higher speed. For Macon to Savannah, I really do not know its situation, but last thing I did know, it was non-signaled.
Atlanta to Nashville, see what I wrote a few posts up. Consider the possibility fairly low.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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