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Anyone know who the contractor(s) were on the Superliner and Viewliner cars? Would be interested to know. GE evidently doesn't make passenger locomotives anymore and I hope there isn't the same issue with future car manufacturing. There is evidently only one remaining manufacturer with a passenger locomotive not sure if is it MK rail...something like that.
Posts: 15 | From: Tulsa | Registered: Mar 2006
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Morrison-Knudsen doesn't exist any longer--it's part of Washington Group International. According to their website, they do light rail, intercity rail, vehicle rehabilitation, and similar projects. Their website doesn't say anything about engines. I was going to look at the Bombardier webpage, but it's in French.
I've never seen plaques for the original manufacturers in the Amtrak cars, just the ones for the rebuilds.
I believe that Bombardier made some of the Amtrak cars, but I'm not positive.
-------------------- Kiernan Posts: 155 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Apr 2005
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Pullman Standard made the Superliner I's, while Bombardier made the Superliner II's.
There are Bombardier builder's plates on the inside vestibules of the Superliner II's.
Posts: 286 | From: Knee deep in the retention tank | Registered: Jan 2006
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I didn't know Bombardier did not make the Superliner I's, is Pullman Standard still in business today?
Posts: 1082 | From: Los Angeles, CA. USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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Go to www.bombardier.com and it will give you the option to chose the language. Nothing about the Amtrak cars but what they are buiilding in and for other parts of the world that are more enlightened than we in the U.S. is just amazing.
Frank in dark, cold (relatively) SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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I wouldn't get too excited about Bombardier's trains. They built a load of 125mph Voyager trains for the UK, some of which have active tilting. I've yet to see one with a full complement of toilets working - too advanced to be any good, as they keep failing. We're talking electronic doors, auto-sensing tap water and hand dryers, and vacuum toilets (like airlines). Except that the doors remain locked, the tanks overflow or leak onto the floor, and they need rebooting several times per journey. Oh, and they smell pretty awful, even when they haven't overflowed. I'm pretty sure all the Voyagers have been out of service at one point due to cracking or some other structural fault.
Mind you, they aren't the only ones. In the last 10 years, only Siemens, as far as I know, have delivered trains on time, on budget, and *working*.
IIRC, weren't Viewliners the very first rail vehicles that Morrison-Knudsen had ever built? Maybe they'd underestimated the work involved.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Think about all the issues these two things have had. Everybody is great in their own promotional literature. Sometimes the connection between promotional literature and reality can be somewhat tenuous.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Bombardier got their own band of noisy protesters at the 2005 Infrarail exhibition (an exhibition for the rail industry to show their wares which is not open to the general public). They were protesting about Bombardier's involvement in the Lhasa, Tibet railway, complaining that they were effectively supporting China's current occupation of Tibet. They didn't get many visitors after that as nobody wanted to get on the wrong side of the protesters! It certainly livened up my day a little!
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Superliner I cars were the last passenger cars built by Pullman Standard before they exited the business. When they did so, Bombardier acquired the rights to all their designs. Same with Budd, when Transit America (at the end, a subsidiary of German steelmaker Thyssen) folded. So if you want a copy of almost any passenger car now running in North America, better go see Bombardier.
The Bombers then acquired Adtranz, in an apparent attempt to monopolize the world market for passenger cars just as they did the North American market. Only problem was that they ended up with too many factories and too many workers (not to mention a reputation for poor quality), and they're now going through a very difficult downsizing.
The Viewliners were designed by M-K's passenger car group, as were the California cars. Both orders were completed by "Amerail", a consortium that included Westinghouse (later acquired by Adtranz). This consortium was put together on a temporary basis to complete the order as M-K self-destructed.
M-K's locomotive group was spun off as MPI (Motive Power, Inc.), which had been a locomotive leasing company. They're now building a line of road switcher locos.
There is no North American passenger car manufacturer other than Bombardier.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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And seeing as how Amtrak and Bombardier were recently suing each other (finally settled out of court). I wonder how open Bombardier would be to making more passenger cars for Amtrak?
While money is money, they may not want to deal with the headache of an Amtrak request for new passenger cars.
Posts: 171 | From: Aurora, Illinois | Registered: Jun 2005
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The reverse could also be true: Amtrak might not want to deal with Bombardier as a supplier.
Actually, I know a few ex-Amtrak people on the vehicle side who never want to deal with Bombarider ever again, but the situation with Bombardier / Amtrak is part of why they are ex employees of Amtrak. (If you don't like the message, shoot the messanger appeared to Warrington's management style.)
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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What about Colorado Railcar ( www.coloradorailcar.com )? I know they are a custom car manufacturer and probably low volume, but maybe they have the expertise. Too expensive? Entrepreneurs and politicians could make things happen if a fat Superliner order is dangled in front of them. And it would be nice if the good old USA could actually create more manufacturing jobs instead of sending them abroad.
But their website does say they are on a UP mainline, so delivery could take longer than assembly.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Since Bombardier holds the patent on the Superliners, whoever got an order for new cars would have to do a totally new design. I imagine that would take extra time. I am not sure Colorado Railcar would have the capacity and the workforce to build 200 new passenger cars. But as TwinStarRocket said above, stranger things have happened!
Posts: 171 | From: Aurora, Illinois | Registered: Jun 2005
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From what I can find out about Colorado Railcar, they haven't sold much. They're into DMUs. They sold their prototypes to a commuter rail in Florida, but that's about. The Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina, commuter rail is using a Korean-Japanese consortium, or something like that, for its DMUs. Colorado Railcar is making the engines, etc., for the RDU system.
I'm pretty sure that Bombardier builds their rail cars in the USA, but, like Wolfman Jack's radio tower in Tijuana, if the factory fell over most of it would fall into Canada.
-------------------- Kiernan Posts: 155 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Apr 2005
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The following rant is strictly my own political opinion. I am all for treating all nations with great respect, but I just think we need to compete and do better.
Does anyone know where Bombardier built, or theoretically would build, Superliners? I thought I heard once it was in Canada, or maybe that is where they built the Acela. Isn't Bombardier a French owned company? Don't most light rail and commuter rail lines get their rolling stock from European companies?
I admire what the French do with trains, but if Americans are willing to concede that we are unable to build state-of-the-art passenger rail cars, then this country needs to throw in the towel as far as being a manufacturing nation, -if we haven't already. This country became a world power partly because of our ability to build things better and more efficiently. Now we are willing to export our methods and outsource our proud labor force in the name of the almighty bottom line.
Airplane manufacturing largely goes to our one monpolistic company or Europe. Auto manufacturing has gone to the Asians and will probably continue to do so. I buy a Japanese car because I believe in free enterprise and it is the best product out there. I wish it weren't. If there is one thing we ought to show the world we can still build better it is trains, because trains built this country.
We could build a fleet of Superliners for less then what Halliburton has lost track of in the war effort. Maybe if Halliburton or an Arab country built rail cars, this administration would become pro-passenger rail.
To me this is not just a rail issue, but an issue of restoring national pride. The greatest generation, the one before mine, not only heroically won a world war, but they taught the world how to build things. During WWII the rich did not complain of being taxed well over 50%. They were patriots. Workers at Pullman did not get outsourced. Volkswagen asked Henry Ford how to build cars. Hitler underestimated our ability to move troops and equipment coast to coast quickly (BY TRAIN) and fight a war over 2 oceans.
I think building rail passenger cars could be done in this country without an overpaid CEO, by proud secure American workers with health care, designed by innovative American designers. And when we have built the best product, maybe we can even (gasp) export it.
Rant over. Now you can all burst my bubble and tell me things don't work that way in the real world.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Pullman lost big time on the original batch. Forget the numbers but far below breaking even on the deal. They wanted to quit the business before the order was completed, but were forced to finish it. Good thing to as I love Superliners.
And as far as I recall, Bombardier lost money on the Superliner II's.
Passenger car manufacturing is not a business to be in, unless there is more then one potential customer....or the cost is enough to cover the expense of manufacturing and unexpected delays.
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
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What's the story with Budd, in Philadelphia? I believe they have made RDCs and some subway equipment in the past. Are they still making rail equipment? Are they still in business?
Posts: 363 | From: Southwest North Central Florida | Registered: Apr 2002
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Budd also ended operation. I originally thought that the Amfleets were the last cars made by Budd but further research says that some commuter cars for CTA (Chicago transit authority) were the last.
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
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What part of a Superliner did Bombardier patent? It's not as if they can patent a whole car, since you can't patent basic concepts which have existed for years (8 wheels, double deck, etc). Google gives tantalysing glimpses of what they might have had but the links don't work (nor do Google's cached copies). Maybe they patented widget X but not a whole car?!
TwinStarRocket, very patriotic. But don't despair - GE in the US have exported dozens of engines to us in the UK in recent years. Mind you, I'm thankful that the birthplace of rail has finally caught up with the 187mph/300kph club. It was embarassing to be left behind for several years. All we need now are the toilets to work properly... [see earlier post]
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I agree with Geoff. Bombardier may own all the plans and copyright thereto, but by now the basic concepts and a lot of the derivations thereof are way into patent expired-territory. I would expect legalistic bullying from Bombardier, so it could be that the potential income is regarded as not worth the trouble, which could be what B. is trying to achieve.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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