posted
The September 2006 issue of Trains Magazine is out and it contains an article detailing the problems with restoring the Sunset Limited east of New Orleans.
Of particular interest is the note that CSX has sold their Mobile Station (which Amtrak used also) to a condominium developer for demolition.
This demolition had been mentioned in an earlier thread touching off a fruitless search for confirmation (primarily by me) in the mainstream media.....the Mobile Newspaper for example. While I didn't find it, I had no reason to doubt the person who originally mentioned it. Now, thanks to Trains, we have this confirmation.
So......getting the Sunset back seems to hinge, in large part, on resolving station issues in Mobile, Pascagoula, and Gulport.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
After hearing the story about the Mobile station being razed I asked my friends who were taking a trip to the Gulf Coast to go check out the stations for me. As it turns out Bay St.Louis is fine as well as Gulfport. They said that it looks like they are still finishing repairing the station in Gulfport. There was no station building in Biloxi so that remained intact but the mobile station had a work fence around it, so they might end up razing it. If that happens all you have to do is get one of those mobile stations that other stations get while their being renovated. Pascagoula is still damaged but is in the process of being repaired. All those repairs would sure speed up if they said the Sunset was going back east again!
posted
UP razed our station, but that didn't stop Amtrak from stopping in Beaumont and keeping Beaumont as a change of crew stop. Everyone just stand around on the slab of concrete from the former station watching the parade of BNSF, KCS, CSX, NS, and UP until Amtrak arrives.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Why would Pascagoula repair the station if its not going to be used? The Sunset will return but the question is when.
Posts: 113 | From: San Antonio, Texas,USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
The worse part is if the Sunset returns East of NOL, it will still be tri-weekly. What a waste to what could be a very popular route.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SunsetLtd: Still it's a start if the train does go back. Eventually the Sunset will become daily service.
Not if states don't get involved. No daily Sunset anytime soon. I got this from a reliable source. I wish he had gave me more information on why not. The Florida to California Sunset route is a gold mine. It passes though 3 of the 4 largest states. And 4 of the nations 10 largest cities. It serve 14 cities with +100,000 populations. What is Amtrak thinking to neglect this route for so long?
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
It makes me think... did Amtrak get rid of the Sightseers on purpose in a attempt to downgrade it? If they like it of not the Sunset's ridership is increasing.. steadly. Soon it will have one of the higest riderships in the network and they won't be able to ingnore it any more. We should also take a stand about the delays just like they are doing with the Starlight, and also try to get the Sightseers back! That would generate lots more ridership and then they can restore it back to Florida!
posted
Remember, the Sunset is still S L O W. And of course unreliable. Look up the Greyhound schedules between Houston or Beaumont and Mobile or Pensacola. If they left at the same time, you could be getting off the BUS in Mobile while the Sunset is still wandering through the swamps trying to find its way into New Orleans. Course Greyhound does this by having several buses bypass New Orleans altogether.
Some of this can not be imporved upon, but parts of it can. The eastern end could be imporved by a couple of hours with signals between Flomaton and Tallahassee and having the 79 mph speed limit this would permit instead of the current 59 mph. The time on the south Louisiana seems also to be a lot slower than the alignment would permit. Is it drawbridges with slow limits, unstable track, observation of slow speeds through towns, or what?
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
In Louisiana, the train needs to be rerouted via the straighter (and maybe faster) inland route through burgeoning Baton Rouge (metro population now one million plus). But it seems Amtrak is not allowed to--or is unwilling to--make any basic improvement of this sort.
-------------------- John Pawson Posts: 137 | From: Willow Grove, PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
If Amtrak reroute out of Beaumont via KCS line DeQuincy then UP to Kinder then Baton Rouge/NOL, 79 mph non-stop to Baton Rouge. I watched KCS freight trains doing near 70 mph along the line all the time. The down side, Lafayette and Lake Charles would lose service.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
So in your guys' opinion, what would be the best way to get from Beaumont to New Orleans? Seems like from what you guys are saying the northern route would be faster.
Posts: 14 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Benson: So in your guys' opinion, what would be the best way to get from Beaumont to New Orleans? Seems like from what you guys are saying the northern route would be faster.
The northern route would be light years faster. Sections on the southern route is very slow. Plus 4 stops, 0 stops on the northern route.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
What do you mean by light years? How many hours are we talking here? Then why doesn't Amtrak reroute it then? Amtrak should take the fastest route wherever possible. Anyways, back to the old topic...Sunset east of New Orleans.
Posts: 14 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Currently it takes 8 hours from NOL to Beaumont. If Amtrak went through Baton Rouge from NOL to Beaumont, 3.5-4 hours. Why not reroute? Who knows what Amtrak thought process is. My guess would be the lost of Lafayette and Lake Charles. Unless Amtrak bus service serve those cities. Amtrak Bus could start in Lafayette, then hit every casino in between Lafayette and Lake Charles, then use the La' Bar'ge Casino complex in Lake Charles as the Amtrak bus stop. Then the bus meet the train at Beaumont. Don't start coughing. Beaumont is planning a multi-modal transit center for the new train station. Also Amtrak could make some money taking Beaumont passengers to the casino's.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
The latest rumor I have heard here in FL is that Amtrak is in the process of qualifying crews between NOL and Pensacola. The assumption is that it would take longer than requalifying crews on the eastern end due to two factors: 1. Many NOL crew members have left and 2. Landmarks along the Gulf coast have drastically changed which means there is much more to learning the road. I don't know if this is rumor or fact but it gives me hope.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Jul 2003
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posted
gp35, it's over 330 miles between Beaumont and New Orleans, I don't think it would be reasonable to make it in 4 hours. Also, it takes less than 7 hours westbound. It's 8 eastbound because of padding into NO.
SilverStar092, how good is the source of your info? Why are they only getting trained to Pascagola and not all the way to NO? Looking forward to replies.
Posts: 14 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Actually, misread your post SilverStar092, sorry, disregard that last post. But is your source good?
Posts: 14 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Concerning rerouting the Sunset from Beaumont to New Orleans -- sure, good idea to serve Baton Rouge, BUT would KCS (or whatever other railroad owns that trackage) be interested? I would guess not........ And that reroute WOULD discontinue service to Lafayette and Lake Charles, which are fairly major cities along the LA Gulf Coast
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Benson: gp35, it's over 330 miles between Beaumont and New Orleans, I don't think it would be reasonable to make it in 4 hours. Also, it takes less than 7 hours westbound. It's 8 eastbound because of padding into NO.
SilverStar092, how good is the source of your info? Why are they only getting trained to Pascagola and not all the way to NO? Looking forward to replies.
Noooo, the distant between NOL and Beaumont in about 200 miles.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I think I did these numbers once before, but here goes.
Southern Pacific (amtrak route) 0 New Orleans 145 Lafayette 219 Lake Charles 279 Beaumont 363 Houston
Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 267 Beaumont 356 Houston if SP between Beaumont and Houston: 267 Beaumont 351 Houston
Going by way of Lake Charles: Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 184 Kinder 218 Lake Charles 278 Beaumont 362 Houston
If you take the KCS and then the all ex-MoPac route west of Baton Rouge it is only 7 miles shorter than the SP and if you go MoPac to Iowa Jct. then Lake Charles it is with one mile of the all ex-SP route.
The time saving may not be that great, either.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: Concerning rerouting the Sunset from Beaumont to New Orleans -- sure, good idea to serve Baton Rouge, BUT would KCS (or whatever other railroad owns that trackage) be interested? I would guess not........ And that reroute WOULD discontinue service to Lafayette and Lake Charles, which are fairly major cities along the LA Gulf Coast
The KCS section of the line in from Beaumont to DeQuincy LA, about 50 miles. The remaining tracks from DeQuincy to NOL is UP. I would think UP would prefer Amtrak on the fast rural northern route. The southern route is industrial, curves, slow bridges, freight yards. But like you said, Amtrak would lose two mid-size markets.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: I think I did these numbers once before, but here goes.
Southern Pacific (amtrak route) 0 New Orleans 145 Lafayette 219 Lake Charles 279 Beaumont 363 Houston
Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 267 Beaumont 356 Houston if SP between Beaumont and Houston: 267 Beaumont 351 Houston
Going by way of Lake Charles: Kansas City Southern / Missouri Pacific 0 New Orleans 79 Baton Rouge 184 Kinder 218 Lake Charles 278 Beaumont 362 Houston
If you take the KCS and then the all ex-MoPac route west of Baton Rouge it is only 7 miles shorter than the SP and if you go MoPac to Iowa Jct. then Lake Charles it is with one mile of the all ex-SP route.
The time saving may not be that great, either.
George
The distant is about the same, but you need to calculate the 4 stops on the southern route, the traffic, the slow limit areas, the slow curves, and the slow bridges. The northern route would require 1 slow down in DeQuincy, the remaining route is high speed.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: Concerning rerouting the Sunset from Beaumont to New Orleans -- sure, good idea to serve Baton Rouge, BUT would KCS (or whatever other railroad owns that trackage) be interested? I would guess not........ And that reroute WOULD discontinue service to Lafayette and Lake Charles, which are fairly major cities along the LA Gulf Coast
Key issue here is that KCS was freight only by the end of 1969 or so. They had no passenger trains left to convey to Amtrak on 5-1-71 and therefore never entered into any contractual agreement to join Amtrak. The Sunset operates via the SP line because that's where it was in 1971.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
If I was UP, I would build a line parallel to KCS line to DeQuincy. Then use northern route as east bound, southern route as west bound.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
GP35 If you were UP how would you justify to your shareholders the expense to construct this line?
So many things look good on paper but would we, each of us, spend our money on projects or products without having a reasonable expectation that the item we create would be beneficial to both our customer and to the intity which provides the initial investment?
Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:The distant is about the same, but you need to calculate the 4 stops on the southern route, the traffic, the slow limit areas, the slow curves, and the slow bridges. The northern route would require 1 slow down in DeQuincy, the remaining route is high speed. [/QB]
A stop from 79 mph and accelerating back to 79 mph takes station dwell time plus three minutes plus or minus a few seconds, so each stops adds 5 to 8 minutes to the non-stop time. You will be making a few stops on the norhtern route as well. The pre-Amtrak passenger schedules of the MoPac and SP were not that much different, either. Don't forget 20 mph over the Mississippi River Bridge at Baton Rouge and the sharp curve on the east end. I think the time saving is mostly imaginary.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:The distant is about the same, but you need to calculate the 4 stops on the southern route, the traffic, the slow limit areas, the slow curves, and the slow bridges. The northern route would require 1 slow down in DeQuincy, the remaining route is high speed.
A stop from 79 mph and accelerating back to 79 mph takes station dwell time plus three minutes plus or minus a few seconds, so each stops adds 5 to 8 minutes to the non-stop time. You will be making a few stops on the norhtern route as well. The pre-Amtrak passenger schedules of the MoPac and SP were not that much different, either. Don't forget 20 mph over the Mississippi River Bridge at Baton Rouge and the sharp curve on the east end. I think the time saving is mostly imaginary.
George [/QB]
What few stops on the north route? Clear high balling between Baton Rouge and Dequincy
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by RRCHINA: GP35 If you were UP how would you justify to your shareholders the expense to construct this line?
So many things look good on paper but would we, each of us, spend our money on projects or products without having a reasonable expectation that the item we create would be beneficial to both our customer and to the intity which provides the initial investment?
UP is spending millions to double track the west. A 50 mile line could complete a double line from Beaumont to NOL.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
As I said before, The pre-Amtrak running times via Baton Rouge and via Lafayette were very little different. this is true even considering using KCS between Baton Rouge and New Orleans,which was about 15 minutes faster than the ICRR track tha PoPac used.
Sorry, but major time savings by the northern route are imaginary.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Why does Amtrak exist? To get people from where they are to where they want to be. It follows that the populations of the places on Amtrak routes is a most important factor in what Amtrak's revenue and public utility will be.
Now by the 2000 census, metro NO had 1.3M and Baton Rouge, 706k. From what we hear, those numbers are approximately reversed. Therefore putting BR on the Amtrak system and allowing those 1.3M to reach major places elsewhere (Houston, LA, Chicago, the Northeast, etc.) is Amtrak's proper job.
With rerouting, the only metro areas not directly served (30 miles away is to far?) would be Houma (194k) and Lafayette (239k). Lake Charles could be directly served by using the cross link between Kinder and Iowa Jc. If Amtrak is to be run in a publicly responsive manner, that 1.3M now in BR is now more important than maintaining the status quo convenience for the 194k plus 239k.
A responsive organization would find a way to put BR on an east-west route, if not on a route to Chicago (via Hammond?), too.
-------------------- John Pawson Posts: 137 | From: Willow Grove, PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
We have somewhat gotten away from east of New Orleans, haven't we?
My only thought against moving the train to a Baton Rouge routing is that this would take public transport out of a part of Louisiana that is poorly served. Of course until the Sunset becomes daily and maintains a better approximation of its schedule it is not really proviiding any meaningful service to these points eitehr.
My primary issue with gp35 is that the huge time savings he sees by going through baton Rouge really do not exist.
To make the Iowa Jct. to Kinter switchover is more feasible than it used to be. Before the UP takeover of SP that was a 25 to 30 mph piece of railroad. It is now a 49 mph (for freight) segment. A new connection would have to be built for a more direct access to the bridge at Baton Rouge as, if my look at maps is correct, the direct line used by MoPac passenger trains has been taken up. When I was down in the Opalousas area some 25 year ago, the MoPac line was pretty beat up looking 115 lb jointed rail with early 50's rolling dates. I would assume that this is now in CWR, but maybe not. I would hate to see them try to run a 79P/60F railroad on that stuff, and I do understand that the freights are now allowed 60 mph on this line.
There is the possibiliy of running a bus connection Lafayette to Baton Rouge, and having a Baton Rouge to New Orleans train just to serve those two cities.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: As I said before, The pre-Amtrak running times via Baton Rouge and via Lafayette were very little different. this is true even considering using KCS between Baton Rouge and New Orleans,which was about 15 minutes faster than the ICRR track tha PoPac used.
Sorry, but major time savings by the northern route are imaginary.
George
Different era different condition of tracks. You can't use 35 year old data for today. When going to the Kinder Casino, I observe the trains running parallel to highway 190. We matched speeds to a freight train doing 67 mph. I dont know the condition of the tracks 35 years ago, but today they are very good. If 2 freight trains raced from the Rose City split to New Orleans, following all speed restrictions, clear track, the northern train would win by a 2-3 maybe 4 hours. QUESTION; at Orange, does your maps show how an east bound train will turn back northwest before turning east again?
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
"A city should be judged by how it treats its Train Station" while the Mobile station is not a classic station or arcitechual landmark why cant they incorporate the station with the station? are they moving the tracks too?
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Originally posted by Tanner929: "A city should be judged by how it treats its Train Station"
Having been born and raised in Mobile, this is insulting, when the city is not to blame. David Pressley stated that "Of particular interest is the note that CSX has sold their Mobile Station (which Amtrak used also) to a condominium developer for demolition.
Posts: 113 | From: San Antonio, Texas,USA | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Mobile should seek federal grants to build a transit center. Put Amtrak, Greyhound, city bus, taxi, All public transit under 1 roof. Thats the plan in Beaumont.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Lets get back on topic- Sunset east of NO. I am interested to hear about what's going on.
Posts: 14 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: May 2006
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posted
gp35, yours of 8-02 informs that UP is spending $M to install double track in the west. True of course, but you can be assured that an economic analysis indicated that these expenditures would pay for themselves. You and myself do not have sufficient (any?) data that would justify double track at this location. Acknowledging that disqualifies both of us from being in a position to say "if I was UP I would build a line parallel to KCS to DeQuincy."
Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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