quote:Originally posted by ehbowen: The Liberty Limited: I'm sure it was a fine train--but I've never heard of it, and I've been a train buff since I could read...
Neither have I!
Actually, if you were to go with a flagship train for each of the major roads with longevity, I'd assume Pennsy's entry would have to be the Broadway. The LL quit about 1953
How about the Crescent? Southern's flagship stayed in their hands longer than any other.
-------------------- History of Baltimore and Baltimore Transit - Visit http://www.btco.net ! Posts: 86 | From: Baltimore | Registered: Feb 2006
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I must point out that just because you have nevver heard of it doesn't mean it didnt exist as one of the tops . I know it existed because I rodeit many times. I suggest you read the book I mentioned. The Trains WE Rode. You will undoubetly find other train syou never hears of. I know I did. I never heard of the Florida Special which doen't mean it wasn't a super train. Notelvis, I have been meaning to tell you that the G. Wahington ws the forrunner of the CArdinal. I rode it and frankly it left me underwhelmed. Others may have a different point of view however
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by train lady: I must point out that just because you have nevver heard of it doesn't mean it didnt exist as one of the tops . I know it existed because I rodeit many times. I suggest you read the book I mentioned. The Trains WE Rode. You will undoubetly find other train syou never hears of. I know I did. I never heard of the Florida Special which doen't mean it wasn't a super train. Notelvis, I have been meaning to tell you that the G. Wahington ws the forrunner of the CArdinal. I rode it and frankly it left me underwhelmed. Others may have a different point of view however
I've heard that off forum regarding the George Washington now as well. I'll admit that this train made my list for purely personal reasons....I'm a big fan of Chessie!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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All right, Mr. Norman, you have convinced me. The City of Los Angeles makes the list. I suppose that it's only fitting; UP along with CB&Q essentially invented the streamliner to begin with.
Still an open question in my mind: The Coast Daylight, "The Most Beautiful Train In The World," versus the overnight Lark on the same route. I still lean towards the Daylight. Any passionate advocates either way want to weigh in?
The list as it currently stands:
Super Chief 20th Century Limited California Zephyr Broadway Limited The Canadian Panama Limited Coast Daylight The Hiawathas Silver Meteor City of Los Angeles North Coast Limited
That's eleven. I originally wanted no more than ten--but, of course, that's a self-imposed, arbitrary limit. What's the general consensus? Does one of the above not belong, or should I stretch it out a notch? If everyone for the most part agrees that all of the nominees do indeed represent the best that North American passenger travel had to offer during the streamliner era, I'd prefer the latter.
Now that I've piqued everyone's curiosity, it's time to disappear back into my hidey-hole and start coding HTML. I'm still learning, so when these pages appear they won't be as prettified as I would eventually like. But I will try to include as much of the original information as possible, and to me that's the main thing. Give me a few weeks, and I should have a good start on the trains on this list, at least.
Thanks again for all the help!
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Jerome Nicholson: Perhaps we should start considering the other "tracks" on your list. 10. Europe and others? Maybe Germany's Rheingold, Norway's Flamsbahn, the Venice Simplon Orient Express, South Africa's Blue Train, Japan's Shinkansen.
The limiting factor is the availability of primary source material [in English--I don't read Japanese!]. Along with my "Official Guides", I've collected about a half dozen copies of "Cook's Continental Timetables" from the '60s through the '80s along with a reprint from 1939. Unlike the Guides, which are (in most cases) an exhaustively comprehensive resource, Cook's seems to be somewhat abridged. Train names are only given for a few major trains (mostly Wagons-Lits sleeping car trains, which company I understand used to be affiliated with Thos. Cook) and I strongly suspect that a number of minor intermediate stops have been omitted.
With that said, Cook's is still an excellent resource and I look forward to gleaning what material I can from it in order to give my site some international flavor. However, the international section will probably be the last area to emerge from "construction".
If you, or anyone else, have any suggestions as to how I can acquire more primary source information without spending an unreasonable amount of time or money, you will find me very receptive.
quote: 12. Selected Short Lines? Are you referring to (1)the route or(2) the trains on the route? If (1), there is a case for the Chicago-Milwaukee-Twin Cities route, whice was fought over by three different railroads with excellent trains: C&NW's 400s, CB&Q's Zephyrs, and MILW's Hiawathas. If (2), the Adirondack, when it was run (perhaps under another name) by the D&H. If both, the Rio Grande Zephyr.
I'm referring to the quirky little tidbits which have caught my eye as I page through my Guides. Trains such as the Georgia Railroad's service between Augusta and Atlanta (which survived as a mixed train into the 1980's), the Durango to Silverton narrow gauge, the Waco, Beaumont, Trinity & Sabine (which never reached Waco, Beaumont, or the Sabine River and which was known to its patrons as the Wobble, Bobble, Turnover and Stop!), and the "Steptoe Valley Flyer" (unofficial name) of the Nevada Northern railway. There are too many possibilities to list them all, but I believe I can work in enough to add some flavor.
The Chicago-Milwaukee-Twin Cities route will be well represented on the regular pages of the site, as will the Rio Grande Zephyr (as it is a successor to the CZ, and I am attempting to document the trains on my list as best I can from their inception to their discontinuance). For the Adirondack I make no promises, but after I get a good start with the crop which is currently on my plate I intend to be receptive to new suggestions.
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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Eric - as you can see from this LONG thread, if you ask 20 people which trains were "the best of the best," you are going to get 20 different responses!
Go with your own knowledge and experiences, and compile your list of what YOU think were the "best of the best" -- I'm sure we will all enjoy reading it when you get it done!!!
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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I see no problem with you adding a 12th train.....after all, Drum Corps International has allowed 12 competitive drum and bugle corps in their 'finals' competition for years.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Of course, anyone who disputes Arthur Detmers Dubin, in his 1964 seminal work Some Classic Trains (Milwaukee: Kalmbach Publications, 1964) needs his head examined.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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While likely unnecessary, allow me to enhance Mr. Pullman's immediately preceeding posting:
"Some" LCN 64-14749
"More' LCN 73-92249
Both publications predated inauguration of ISBN identification.
Posts: 10030 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Please allow me, a long-time lurker, to join your discussion about the best passenger trains, in particular the debate between the Seaboard’s Silver Meteor and the Atlantic Coast Line’s Champion. My vote for the Meteor is biased. I was born and raised in Hamlet, N.C., self-proclaimed “Hub of the Seaboard,” where the railroad’s north-south and east-west mainlines crossed; I rode only Seaboard trains until the SAL-ACL merger in 1967; and, with the exception of my father, the male ancestors on both sides of my family worked for the Seaboard, several of them as passenger conductors on the Silver Meteor, Silver Star and Silver Comet.
From the late 1930s until the merger of the two railroads, the Silver Meteor and the Champion were regarded as the flagships of two passenger train fleets that competed fiercely in one of the most hotly contested and successful rail passenger markets in America: picking up frozen passengers in the Northeast and dropping them off the next day – defrosted – at their Florida vacation destinations. It was a competition in which the Coast Line held a competitive advantage because its route was the more easterly of the railroads’ parallel paths between Richmond, Va., and Jacksonville, Fla. Down the flat coastal plain, the Coast Line built a straight, double-track railroad. Linking the capital cities of Virginia and the Carolinas, which were on the edge of the hilly Piedmont, the Seaboard had a curvy, single track line.
The Seaboard’s passenger service survived and eventually took the lead because of its innovative firsts in the market, such as the addition of air conditioning and then diesels to its Orange Blossom Special, the winter-only all-Pullman train immortalized in a Johnny Cash ballad, which competed against the Coast Line’s Florida Special, also a seasonal all-Pullman operation.
But the most important innovation in the market was the introduction of lightweight streamlined trains. The Seaboard, as usual, was first, inaugurating the all-coach Silver Meteor on Feb. 2, 1939. More than 75,000 entries were received in the Seaboard’s name-the-train contest; 30 winners divided the $500 first prize. The railroad’s passenger revenue increased by a third in the Meteor’s first six months of operation, and within a year its consist was doubled from seven to 14 cars. The Coast Line, which had originally argued that a streamlined train could not succeed in the New York-Florida market, immediately reversed course when the Meteor’s success became apparent and introduced the lightweight all-coach Champion, named for its then-vice president Champion McDowell Davis, on Dec. 1, 1939. (Imagine today if Amtrak could decide on a major change in passenger service, order and receive new equipment all in less than a year.)
Both trains increased passenger demand. One early Seaboard customer survey found that 40% of the Meteor’s passengers would not have traveled by rail to Florida on another train. Competition for the growing market – with Seaboard usually taking the first step – meant the addition of second diners, heavyweight sleepers (switching to lightweight sleepers once war-imposed manufacturing restrictions were dropped in the 1940s) and additional sections. The Seaboard’s second streamliner was called the Advance Silver Meteor, which evolved into the Silver Star, while the Coast Line ran separate East Coast and West Coast Champions to Florida’s Gulf and Atlantic Coasts. The railroads also added nurses to their service crews and gimmicks such as fashion shows in their lounge cars to entertain passengers.
Others who rode both trains can comment on whatever subjective service differences – better food, prettier china, etc. – existed in the two railroads’ copycat passenger operations. But the high point in equipment development came with the addition of the Sun Lounge car to the Silver Meteor in 1956. The lounge end of these cars, which also had five double-bedrooms, featured extra-large windows along the sides and windows built into the roof. The genius of this design, on a route where Northeast tunnel clearances were too low for dome cars, was that a first-class passenger could step from an icy station platform into a warm, sun-filled room with driftwood lamps, Florida beach murals and order a drink 24 hours before arrival in the tropics.
According to Joseph M. Welsh’s excellent history of the SAL-ACL passenger competition, “By Streamliner New York to Florida,” for which I’m indebted for much of the data here, the Coast Line’s annual passenger revenue, which was one-third greater than Seaboard’s $21 million in 1946, trailed Seaboard $14.8 million to $14.4 million twenty years later on the eve of Amtrak.
It was the Silver Meteor that carried its round-end observation car until Amtrak. Today the Champion name is gone, but the Silver Meteor runs the Champion's route on what are now CSX rails. Most of the Seaboard’s rails between Richmond and Raleigh, N.C., were removed, but the Silver Star still covers as much of the old Seaboard, also now CSX, as possible including passage through my home town. If work by the states of Virginia and North Carolina comes to full fruition, the old link between Richmond and Raleigh will be restored and most passenger service, either by Amtrak or a successor operator, will move to the Seaboard route, returning the Silver Meteor to what is, in my mind, its rightful place.
My personal bias aside, neither of these trains would have been what they became were it not for the competition between them in a unique market, and the competition would not have been as fierce if the Seaboard had not been forced into innovation by its underdog status.
Posts: 48 | From: San Jose, Calif. | Registered: Sep 2006
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thanks for a very interesting and informative post. It's interesting how many competitions there were among the various railroads and how that improved the services of each. I wonder what would happen if Amtrak had some.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Thanks for the remarkably informative post. I too am partial to Hamlet because my first ride aboard an Amtrak train began there......the southbound Silver Star to DeLand, FL in about 1974 or 75.
Out of curiousity, have you been back to Hamlet since the NCDOT completed it's renovations on the depot there? That station is a real gem and it is nice to see it so lovingly restored.....albeit not on it's original foundation.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Perhaps we can poll or ask what are the best trains running today. We don't have to limit it to amtrak perhaps mid range city to city or suburban trains. if we can make commuter train travel enjoyable and comfortable perhaps people might think of taking the train on a longer journey.
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It hadn’t occurred to me until your post, Train Lady, but competition was certainly a factor in driving up the service levels on many of the trains being discussed in this thread. What would the 20th Century Limited have been like between New York and Chicago without the rival Broadway Limited? How about the three competing flagships between Chicago and Seattle, the Empire Builder, North Coast Limited and Olympian Hiawatha? The City of San Francisco vs. the California Zephyr? Even shorter runs such as the Chicago-Minneapolis Hiawathas, Zephyrs and 400s? What is remarkable is that the Southern Pacific, which eventually came to be regarded as anti-passenger, operated highly regarded trains such as the Lark and the Daylights that were in monopoly markets.
One has to acknowledge the role competition played in producing the winning trains, how each railroad approached market challenges and sought to win passengers to its service. Corporate pride as well as economic survival depended on it.
Amtrak has no standards to meet other than what it sets for itself or Congress decides to impose in willy-nilly fashion. I ride and enjoy Amtrak, but a business without competition can never realize its full potential. Of course, Amtrak only exists because of a business consensus by 1971 that competitive passenger rail was no longer viable and that a single subsidized operator was somehow the path to a new business model. That consensus may be evolving to belief that passenger rail, like all other transportation modes, needs subsidy in some form to survive. The question is whether government will create a permanent funding mechanism for rail – such as road, air and water transportation already have – to replace Amtrak’s annual begathon before Congress. If such a mechanism existed, it could provide competition to Amtrak or even replace Amtrak with new, competing operators. I don’t forsee any private operator stepping in without some degree of government support.
I return to Hamlet at least annually, David. I feel like I grew up at the Seaboard depot. Artists’ renderings of it hang in my home and office, and a photo of the restored building is my computer desktop. The computer photo can be found at http://railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=124783. A twin DVD documentary of the restoration project, which includes footage of the depot’s move from its original to its new location, is available at City Hall or the depot for about $20. Many nights – most nights in summer – my father would take me there to watch the passenger trains come through. The southbound Silver Star arrived about 9:30, the northbound Silver Meteor about 10:30 and the southbound Silver Comet to Atlanta and Birmingham about 11:30. If we stayed for all three trains, there was a newsstand restaurant to get a bite in and plenty of railroad men to talk to between arrivals. Occasionally an engineer would give us a ride on the downtown switcher that worked the trains.
In high school I rode the Seaboard Air Line's Silver Comet ($17.85 round trip) to Atlanta to see the Braves play and the Silver Star on a school trip to Miami for a Bahamas cruise. I remember the smells and taste of a delicious dining car breakfast after waking up in Florida. The Seaboard Coast Line and later Amtrak Silver Stars were also my way home from Chapel Hill in the early ’70s when I was in college. I’d ride the bus to Raleigh where my uncle, who’d been promoted from passenger conductor to an office in the passenger station, would put me on the train in time for a dining car steak enroute to Hamlet. I also took the Star to Penn Station in New York, located beneath Madison Square Garden, to see the Tar Heels play basketball. That was 30 years ago. More recently I took my son to the East Coast where we Amtraked from New York to Disney World on a series of trains over a period of a week, the last of which was a Silver Star Viewliner trip beginning in Richmond. A couple of years ago I began a cross-country trip from Hamlet to the Bay Area on the Silver Star, Capitol Limited and California Zephyr.
What North Carolina has done in restoring the Hamlet depot and many others around the state is far-sighted, in my opinion, and will pay off as the state slowly develops its own rail service.
Posts: 48 | From: San Jose, Calif. | Registered: Sep 2006
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Doodlebug - welcome to this forum!!!!! We are glad you finally gave up "lurking" and joined in our discussions! You seem quite knowledgeable about passenger rail, especially the east coast lines. Again, welcome to the forum and we hope to hear A LOT MORE from you!!!!
--Rich K from Florida ("Railroad Rich")
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Doodlebug: What North Carolina has done in restoring the Hamlet depot and many others around the state is far-sighted, in my opinion, and will pay off as the state slowly develops its own rail service.
Agreed.
I very much like what has been done in Fayetteville, Wilson, Selma, Rocky Mount, Greensboro, Southern Pines, and Salisbury.
The most outstanding examples though are Hamlet and High Point. It's a delight just to stop and admire those stations.
That Hamlet photo appears to have been taken early in the morning with the rising sun already beating down on the eastern (formerly southern) face of the building. (And the sun can really beat down in Hamlet, NC.) I wonder if those folks at the station are waiting for a three hour late northbound Silver Star?
Now going completely off-topic......about those Tar Heels.......I've seen them play a number of times (most recently last December) over the years and they usually win. A pity for me as I always hold rooting interest for the opposition when I attend one of their games! My 'issue' with the Tar Heels will likely be clearer when I explain that graduate degrees in my immediate family were earned at Kentucky (my father), Maryland (myself), Louisville (also my father), and N.C. State (my sister). All schools who have enjoyed at least flashes of brilliance in March.
I think we may agree about that school in Durham!
And as Rich said, welcome to the forum. Your interest in, and knowledge of, passenger rail is evident. We look forward to hearing more from you.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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It was good to hear your tales of Seaboard trains. I agree Seaboard was far superior to the ACL. The only downside to a Seaboard overnight trip is that you had to have sure footing if getting out of your berth at night as the trains whipped around the sandhills of the Carolinas.
While the premier trains were great, I think I almost enjoyed the second tier trains more. They provided an unhurried and relaxed look at the country. The crews seemed more friendly and the enroute switching, meets, and frequent station stops was always fun. I think the service was just as good, albeit on a different scale.
For my money you couldn't beat a ride on the Palmland from Washington to Fort Lauderdale on a warm spring day in the south. A trip I enjoyed a couple times in the 60's when in college. I know there never was colder beer than that served in the wonderful heavyweight grill car that operated from Hamlet to Jacksonville. The Palmland also had a never ending variety of off line sleepers used for the train as the Seaboard passenger sevice prospered and other roads languished. I can remember Rock Island, UP, and Wabash cars were often on the train.
You know, that wouldn't be a bad project. What were the best second tier trains on each road. Let's see, the ACL would be the Havanna Special, the B&O was the Diplomat (the original St. Louis version), the L&N was clearly the Pan American that operated in the shadow of the Humming Bird.
Well I guess today we should be thankful for the Palmetto although I'm not sure I would consider the other Silver service trains premier in any sense of the word.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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As secondary trains go I would place the Erie Limited and Lake Cities "right up there'. I have also had memorable journeys aboard the B&O "Metropolitan" and once from UP #6, I recall seeing parts of Nevada by the light of day one would never see from the "City".
I'll bet those here from "railroad families" have many a tale to relate from traveling "the secondaries", as railroad passes were customarily restricted (save the big shots of course) for travel aboard "the premiers".
Posts: 10030 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Whrn while NC have a system that will link your econcomic centers and the coast lines that does not relay on Amtrak and build a commuter line the state needs, ahh but all I've seen is Highway building.
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tanner929: To the Tar Heelers,
Whrn while NC have a system that will link your econcomic centers and the coast lines that does not relay on Amtrak and build a commuter line the state needs, ahh but all I've seen is Highway building.
The Piedmont links Raleigh, Greensboro, and Charlotte. These are North Carolina's three largest cities. Much is comic about them and they are also financial centers.
The train's consist is entirely owned by the NCDOT. It is serviced by NCDOT employees. The stations it stops at have been refurbished using NCDOT funds. The very tracks this train runs on are......you guessed it......owned by the state of North Carolina and have been improved using NCDOT funds. While Amtrak crews operate this train under contract to the state NCDOT (who is thus paying those salaries), the name 'Amtrak' does not appear on any of the equipment. The only reliance on Amtrak is for connection to the outside world.
Elsewhere, lightrail is under construction in Charlotte and heavy commuter rail is under consideration there. The plan for commuter rail service in the Triangle area, admittedly, seems stalled and isn't something I expect to see anytime soon.
No other southern state has yet made this degree of investment in passenger rail.
Are we satisfied with the amount of service we have? Not at all. We are all hopeful that we will soon have an additional midday rountrip between Raleigh and Charlotte. We hope to see passenger service restored to Wilmington. I hope that I live long enough to buy a ticket to ride the first train when scheduled passenger service returns to Asheville.
Come on down and have another look Tanner. You might see some things that would change your mind. Take the Crescent though......you'll avoid having to ride more than a couple of miles on CSX that way.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I think the ONLY state that is ahead of Norht Carolina in promotion of passenger rail is California, and in proportion to population, not even them. Yes California does have three multi-train corridors, and NC only one, but there is a HUGE difference in size and population.
There are times that NC does seem frustratingly slow. I think they are long overdue for a third train Raleigh to Charlotte. Why are they planning on replacing only two segments of double track between Greensboro and Charlotte instead of all of them? Have they considered a Charlotte to Columbia (with SC) train to hook up to the Silver Star? Yes I know that service ended in the 50's but Charlotte was a small town then compared to what it is now. I know they are talking about Raleigh to Wilmington, but I suspect a reasonable connection - better through cars - Wilmington to the northeast at Rocky Mount would haul a lot more people.
Posts: 2818 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I do hope there is a third train Charlotte to Raleigh, although I wonder if a daylight train Charlotte-Greensboro-Lynchburg-Charlottesville-DC wouldn't be a better investment. Viginia is actively involved in rail passenger funding too.
As for poor old SC, rail passenger is the last thing on politicians agenda. I had a summer job down here in 1966 when the SRR severed the Augusta Special between Charlotte and Fort Mill, SC just a few miles from Charlotte but over the border in SC. This of course avoided the need to go to the ICC and the train quiclky died.
I believe in the 80's Amtrak did consider rerouting the star via the SRR to Charlotte and then to Columbia on to Florida. Given CSX on time performance, that may have been a good idea.
Several years ago NC was talking with CSX about resurrecting the abandoned portion of the RMT-Wilmington line. I think that is still under consideration.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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regarding the NS line between Charlotte and Columbia which has appeared on just about everyone's wish-list for passenger service, haven't key stretches in downtown Charlotte and Columbia been dismantled for real estate development?
-------------------- John Pawson Posts: 137 | From: Willow Grove, PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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delvyrails - not all. Maybe 10 years ago the SAL mainline through downtown was removed and a joint line with NS was built to eliminate grade crossings. The new station was built on that line (refered to as the ditch.) So now there is joint operation over the track just north as well as south of downtown. It is very doable to operate from Charlotte to Colbumbia. The only hitch is, to continue south would require a short backup move to the wye around the old SRR station to continue south on SAL to Savannah. A direct move could be move however if you used the NS line from Spartanburg into town. If you wanted
In Charlotte a new station will be built downtown (Transportation center). This has been funded and will be built. It's where the current Greyhound station is which ironically is where the origninal SRR station stood. The line splits just beyond the station for the cut off over to the line to Columbia and the mainline to Atlanta.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Amtrak ran a test train several years ago between Charlotte and Columbia with the appropriate elected officials aboard. There had been hope that this would lead to an expansion of the Carolinian to Columbia.
Sadly, the very next day one of the recent devestating hurricanes (not a Katrina mind you....but close) swept inland and flooded much of the Carolina coastal regions. Due to this natural disaster, the test train and reaction to it didn't even make the local news as far as I can tell.
One of the issues that arose years ago when there was talk of rerouting the Silver Star through Charlotte and then to Columbia was that a new track connection would have been needed to reach CSX from NS in Columbia AND that connection would have needed to take the corner of a historic cemetery. Now CSX and NS trains operate through town on a new track alignment several blocks west of the original SAL and I don't know if this is still an issue or not. I suspect that the hitch of a short backup move mentioned by Palmland is neccessary in absence of this connection.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I fear that I’ve helped hijack a thread originally begun to help ehbowen’s project to compile a list of best trains. So maybe the most recent posts here should be moved somehow to a new thread with a new title. But discussion of what my two home states, California and North Carolina, are doing with passenger rail development is important somewhere in this forum because they are leaders in the United States, and what they are doing may be our window to see the future.
North Carolina’s system, at present, does two things. First, it links the state’s three largest cities, Charlotte, Greensboro and Raleigh, using two pairs of daily trains, the Carolinian and the Piedmont, which are scheduled so that a passenger anywhere along the route can make a round-trip in the same day. They parallel the Interstate 85/40 highway corridor that is the most heavily traveled intercity route in the state. Second, it links the in-state system to the segment of the national Amtrak system that is most important to North Carolinians, the Northeast Corridor. While the Piedmont consists of state-owned equipment operating over a state-owned corridor (Norfolk Southern’s tracks are laid on state-owned right-of-way dating back more than a century and called the North Carolina Railroad) contracted out to Amtrak, the Carolinian operates over the same route, and on to New York, with Amtrak equipment. It would not be operated, however, without North Carolina’s additional subsidy. Note the wording posted on any Amtrak schedule of those two trains: “The Carolinian and Piedmont are financed primarily through funds made available by the North Carolina State Department of Transportation.” Two expansions of this system are in various planning stages. One would bring the coastal city of Wilmington into the system, and the other would reach west to Asheville in notelvis’ neck of the woods.
North Carolina’s goal in developing this service, with the cooperation of Virginia, another state leader in passenger rail, is essentially to connect the major cities of those two states into the Northeast Corridor with trains that are both more frequent and much faster than Amtrak currently offers, but probably short of electrification. North Carolina’s rail system has an informative website at www.bytrain.org. There is a 165-page report on these plans, which includes a description of the kind of trains and their schedules, at www.sehsr.org/reports/rich_vol_1.pdf.
Georgia and South Carolina may eventually join this effort, but at present they are somewhat behind. Frequent high-speed service from Charlotte would be extended along Norfolk Southern to Atlanta, and then south to Macon. Service would also be extended south from Raleigh along CSX (former Seaboard) through Columbia, S.C., and Savannah, Ga., to Jacksonville, Fla. These plans are outlined at www.sehsr.org, the website of Southeast High Speed Rail, which is a cooperative effort of the transportation departments of the four southeastern states.
Southeast High-Speed Rail has examined routing trains between Raleigh and Columbia through Charlotte on the Norfolk Southern, but so far has favored Raleigh-Columbia along CSX. The reason, according to South Carolina’s DOT website at www.scdot.org/getting/pdfs/SC_SEHSR.pdf, is “The route [through Charlotte], however, would be 60 miles (or 30 percent) longer than the ‘S’ line between Raleigh and Columbia, and due to alignment considerations, negate the potential for faster running over the ‘S’ line, at least in South Carolina.”
I’m sure that’s a factor, but overlying that, I believe, is a larger reason, which I alluded to above. The growing cities of the Southeast, such as Charlotte, see transportation links to the already important business centers of the Northeast as their highest priority for future transportation planning. Any examination of the air travel destinations of passengers boarding in North Carolina shows New York and Washington as the most traveled-to destinations. Designing a system that leads to Florida is less important.
Posts: 48 | From: San Jose, Calif. | Registered: Sep 2006
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This afternoon I went to a garage sale in the Pike Place Market (Seattle) and found a 1955 railroad timetable that featured The Potatoland Special. Does anybody have a fond memory of The Potatoland Special? Can anyone guess the route of The Potatoland Special? Is there still time to nominate The Potatoland Special to the top 10 list?
Posts: 78 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Beacon Hill: This afternoon I went to a garage sale in the Pike Place Market (Seattle) and found a 1955 railroad timetable that featured The Potatoland Special. Does anybody have a fond memory of The Potatoland Special? Can anyone guess the route of The Potatoland Special? Is there still time to nominate The Potatoland Special to the top 10 list?
I think this would qualify for the notable 'short-line' list!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Beacon Hill: This afternoon I went to a garage sale in the Pike Place Market (Seattle) and found a 1955 railroad timetable that featured The Potatoland Special. Does anybody have a fond memory of The Potatoland Special? Can anyone guess the route of The Potatoland Special? Is there still time to nominate The Potatoland Special to the top 10 list?
If you'll tell me which railroad ran it or which cities it served, I can put it on the short line list!
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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I was hoping some member would remember The Potatoland Special and have a 750 word reminiscence to share with everyone about a wonderful childhood journey from Bangor, Maine through the breathtaking beauty of the local potato fields. This Bangor and Aroostook service operated six days a week and featured coaches and one sleeping car that was through-routed to Portland and Boston. Loring AFB was also along the route.
Posts: 78 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jun 2006
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BAR owned two "late model' 6-4-6 Sleepers named "North Twin Lake" and "South Twin Lake". They were "tacked on" to a 1954 Pullman Standard order for same from the New Haven and Boston & Maine. Both of those roads named their cars "(on line) Beach". Also, there were similar NH 6BR-Lng "--State" cars.
But the best Bangor & Aroostook "ambassadors" for which the little 200 mile short line became nationally known were its "State of Maine Products" Box-Reefer cars.
A model! Be careful......someone might take you for a rail enthusiast!
In all seriousness though, thanks for sharing.....both links were fascinating.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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The sad fact of the matter is Amtrak was formed because the investor-owned railroads were hemmorhaging red ink in their passenger accounts.
The penultimate event in the passenger service death spiral was in October 1967, when the nascent US Postal Service terminated all (save a couple) Railway Mail Service contracts. Further, express "first fruits" (the REALLY high dollar freight) which once had been province of the Passenger Traffic Departments moved with improving quality of refrigeration to the freight departments.
Today, I submit a railroad saying to its shareholders "We want to re-enter the line haul passenger business" would see its BOD and principal officers voted out of office, tarred, feathered, and tied to the rails at the principal classification yard!
quote:Originally posted by train lady: (snip) It's interesting how many competitions there were among the various railroads and how that improved the services of each. I wonder what would happen if Amtrak had some.
posted
All right, everyone, I couldn't wait any longer. The "Beta Test" version of the site is now live at StreamlinerSchedules.com with my first dozen timetables.
Yes, there's more on the way, although I'd like to get these first ones fully presentable before I start adding more in earnest. (I'm still learning HTML - I'm only about a quarter of the way through the book I bought!) One thing that's still missing is a pop-up with the abbreviations I used. For those who are interested, here they are in brief:
Under time: A-A.M. P-P.M. R-Receives passengers only. D-Discharges passengers only. F-Conditional (Flag) stop. N-Not a passenger stop (crew change, engine servicing, scenic point of interest, etc.)
Under Services: T-Telegraph Station. C-Coupon Station (ticket office). B-Timetable specifically states checked baggage is handled at this station. R-Rental cars available at station. X-Timetable specifically states checked baggage is NOT handled at this station.
Feedback is welcome, either here or through the email link on the main page of the site. And please be patient--improvements will come!
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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Eric - looks like you are off to a great start!!!! Keep up the good work! I enjoyed the small portion of this work which you have finished so far.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Looks good Eric. What amazes me is the variety of equipment offered on those LD trains. It certainly has "streamlined" now days. Looking forward to more.
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I think the Potatoland Special is definitely signature material!
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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