posted
Still pending... if the rumor I heard is true it will be in December. Or they will probably announce something in December. The crews have already been requalified, so I don't know whats keeping it from going to Florida.
posted
Outside of the passenger train riding/advocacy community, who cares?
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
If your question is serious and not rhetorical, I care.
I took the Sunset last year from DeLand to New Orleans and it was a pleasant trip with good service, decent food, and some great views from the Sightseer Lounge. The train while not sold out was crowded. The return journey was by Southwest Airlines and was quick, on tine, but not much to get excited about.
By the way, I respect your knowledge and past contributions to this board.
Posts: 5 | From: Ocala, Florida | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
I notice the latest national timetable still shows the stations between NOL and Orlando, but with a note that restart of service is still TBA. One must get some small bit of encouragement from that.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
It's hard, but I'm keeping the faith that it will return. I do want to ride the Sunset from Deland west again.
Posts: 133 | From: Florida, U.S.A. | Registered: May 2004
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--Does Amtrak seem to be on any big "push" to restore Sunset East? --Is CSX seeking to have it restored? --Does it have any legislative "patron saint"? --Is the region deprived of essential transportation? --Does a passenger boarding an Acela at Philadelphia even know of the -- route?
Once again, Mr. OCL1 (Ocala Mike elsewhere?) I'm afraid the answer to all of the above is NO.
--Is NARP and other advocacy groups pushing for its restoration?
Well I guess the answer to that one is YES.
Incidentially I have ridden Sunset East during both '02 and '04 as part of Chi-Florida itineraries ('04 as part of a visit with friends at The Villages; I stayed in Ocala at Holiday Inn-Express; corner SR 200 & US 27) . It is a part of my personal "more positives than negatives" assessment that I hold regarding my Amtrak LD travel.
But as I noted in the past, Sunset East is likely to be Amtrak's "Korean War". That "forgotten war" is still a war that has not been ended by any kind of treaty. There has only been a truce in place for the past 53 years. Sunset East could hold its "temporarily annulled' status for quite some time to come, even though I would expect that as the region gets "back to normal" (or at least from a tourist's perspective) the Katrina reference may be dropped.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by NativeSon5859: I heard three different things on my NOL-LAX trip a few days ago.
1) Station agent in NOL said that a NOL-JAX DAILY train was going to start in the Spring.
2) Dining car attendant told me that "Florida will be coming back soon."
3) Sleeping car attendant told me "Amtrak told the employees no plan on restoring service East of NOL."
Which one to believe?
Sounds like the range of answers I got from the Starlight crew regarding the future of the Parlour Car. In my experience Amtrak's employee rumor mill is very active and very unreliable.
quote:Originally posted by NativeSon5859: I heard three different things on my NOL-LAX trip a few days ago.
1) Station agent in NOL said that a NOL-JAX DAILY train was going to start in the Spring.
2) Dining car attendant told me that "Florida will be coming back soon."
3) Sleeping car attendant told me "Amtrak told the employees no plan on restoring service East of NOL."
Which one to believe?
Sounds like the range of answers I got from the Starlight crew regarding the future of the Parlour Car. In my experience Amtrak's employee rumor mill is very active and very unreliable.
Amtrak generally has a "mushroom-style" management, so frontline employees are almost always the last to know what is REALLY going to happen. Your "rumor mill" observation is right on, as the operative saying is, "If you haven't heard a good rumor, start one!".
Posts: 73 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Regarding my 'who cares' comment?
--Does Amtrak seem to be on any big "push" to restore Sunset East? --Is CSX seeking to have it restored? --Does it have any legislative "patron saint"? --Is the region deprived of essential transportation? --Does a passenger boarding an Acela at Philadelphia even know of the -- route?
Once again, Mr. OCL1 (Ocala Mike elsewhere?) I'm afraid the answer to all of the above is NO
CSX's wishes or the knowledge of an Acela passenger in Philadelphia has nothing whatsoever to do with Amtrak resuming (or not) the Sunset east of New Orleans. CSX would probably be perfectly happy not to have to deal with any passenger trains, and Acela BOS-WAS passegners aren't very likely to be traveling along the Gulf Coast. Neither is a patron saint required (might help, though). Certainly Amtrak has been dragging its feet here, of course.
A service need not be 'essential' to be very worthwhile and important to the regions' transportation infrastructure. The tri-weekly Sunset is a minimal operation - we all know that - so judging it by an 'essential' yardstick seems rather odd. But it remains a missing link in Amtrak's already skeletol national network, and though Acela patrons may never miss it, somebody in Lake City or Bay St. Louis no doubt already has.
Are they less important than Phildelphia citizens? Maybe because they are fewer in number? We should not be surprised that a tri-weekly train carries fewer passenges than hourly Acela departures.
Posts: 72 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Feb 2001
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I have missed the Sunset east of New Orleans even though I have only actually ridden that segment once.
However, I am regularly at the in-laws in the Orlando area and usually manage an afternoon of train-watching at the Winter Park station (well.....the park across from the Winter Park station....we know that only terrorists with cameras hang out on the platforms). I have missed seeing the Sunset's consist shunt back and forth between Sanford and Orlando now for more than a year.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by DC2001: CSX's wishes or the knowledge of an Acela passenger in Philadelphia has nothing whatsoever to do with Amtrak resuming (or not) the Sunset east of New Orleans. CSX would probably be perfectly happy not to have to deal with any passenger trains, and Acela BOS-WAS passegners aren't very likely to be traveling along the Gulf Coast. Neither is a patron saint required (might help, though). Certainly Amtrak has been dragging its feet here, of course.
Whether intentionally or by accident, it appears, Mr. DC, you agree with my position regarding Sunset East.
The Northeast Corridor passenger, and for that matter his counterpart in the three California corridors, is what the future of intercity rail passenger service is all about. It is not about Sunset East that even in the best of times has always been the weakest link in Amtrak's LD system. To have been inaugurated meant at one time it had a political patron saint but that evidently is no longer the case. There is perfectly adequate alternative transportation for any prospective passenger along the route - and the number of those prospective passengers have likely been permanently diminished (what's New Orleans "best case" repopulation goal? I think about 300K -down from PREKAT 5l5K) .
If this excerpt from a message sent me regarding a trip made by a friend I've known since since college on The Crescent is indicative of anything, it looks like "the party's over":
Last week I went to the AICPA Health Industry Conference in New Orleans. If there was a case for dropping long distance, The Crescent should be on the list. (I went down in No. 19 with Viewliner Sleeper - $342; back on Jet Blue (via JFK) - $79.)
Load out of DC totaled 93, out of Atlanta it was only 25 - into NOL 5 sleeper, 16 coach. Meals were "OK" but almost as ridiculously expensive as we thought in the 1950's. $14.50 for the roast chicken (compare with the GM&O $2.10 in 1971). Down to 3 person crew (cook, waiter in charge, and waiter) had 11 for dinner out of Washington (9 from sleepers (free) and 2 coach. I figured I had about $73 worth as they did serve dinner into NOL, and I had three desserts ($5 cake), extra sausage for breakfast ($3) and several soft drinks - did leave a tip each time.
Ahead of time into Atlanta - lost time South and was as much as 65 minutes late, but only 32 into NOL due to padding. Took the Gray Line Katrina tour, which was interesting - no wonder half the people are gone and never will return
Therefore, it appears that the only advocate for resumption of service is NARP and their constituents pushing their LD advocacy agenda. I believe their propaganda includes mention of a law requiring Amtrak to run and CSX to host the train. Maybe there is, but it appears the only petitioner with desire to have any such law enforced is NARP.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
If it can be presumed that New Orleans is permanently depopulated, then it should no longer be an Amtrak terminal point. Houston, for instance, is now many times more populous than New Orleans; and therefore it should generate more traffic.
Asking prospective through passengers at NOL to wait 15 hours or more for a connection simply makes for almost no connecting passengers. The dearth of NOL population and poor connections explain the mere 21 arriving passengers witnessed on the Crescent.
A major system change is in order. Consider these ideas:
(a) in some fashion, the Crescent and the Sunset would be through-routed; or
(b) as at Spokane on the Empire Builder, a rescheduled Sunset (overnight NOL-HOS) would be split for two destinations east of NOL, NYP and Florida; or
(c) the Crescent and the rescheduled Sunset west of NOL would be through-routed while the City of New Orleans is through-routed with the former Sunset east of NOL. Good same-day east-west connections between these restructured trains would become possible.
-------------------- John Pawson Posts: 137 | From: Willow Grove, PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by delvyrails: If it can be presumed that New Orleans is permanently depopulated, then it should no longer be an Amtrak terminal point. Houston, for instance, is now many times more populous than New Orleans; and therefore it should generate more traffic.
Asking prospective through passengers at NOL to wait 15 hours or more for a connection simply makes for almost no connecting passengers. The dearth of NOL population and poor connections explain the mere 21 arriving passengers witnessed on the Crescent.
Unfortunately, I have to agree. During my recent trip on the Crescent, my sleeping car was barely half-occupied between New York and Atlanta. Between Atlanta and New Orleans, I literally had the entire car to myself.
As for New Orleans. . . .
I don't know what trackage and rerouting issues would be involved, but shifting the transfer point to Houston makes sense. Despite all the bloated speeches, the p.r. hype, and the sunny predictions on the 6 O'Clock News by the wealthy residents of the Garden District and French Quarter (who seem to be in a serious state of denial), the city isn't "coming back" anytime soon.
I'd visited New Orleans several times pre-Katrina and enjoyed it. But a weirdly grim and ominous atmosphere hangs over the city now -- even in those neighborhoods that remained relatively unscathed. It's sad to say, but on my recent visit, the whole place gave me the creeps.
posted
I must admit to knowing nothing about LD service in the SE US, but I can't help but wonder if the market is there but customers are driven away by poor service and lack of commitment by Amtrak.
The Empire Builder runs AT CAPACITY through 1800 miles of the most sparsely populated region of the country. There is not a major city between Minneapolis and Spokane. Yet it has $42 million in annual revenue and runs with much higher load factors than the NEC (I think something like 80% vs. 40%). Unlike the Crescent and Sunset, it runs on time on a cooperative host railroad with the best of the LD equipment. People who work the Builder claim that if they had cars to add they would still be full.
With a much higher population density, why can't the LD's in the SE perform as well? Couldn't the midwest to Florida market be serviced by a combination of the CHI-NO and NO-FLA daily trains? Can we hope the new leadership at Amtrak can think creatively beyond starving and cutting LD service?
I know two obvious drawbacks are lack of equipment, and longer travel times than driving. But more and better equipment could produce revenue that reduces subsidies (the Builder is the most cost-effective of the LD's), and an increasing number of people prefer not to drive or fly.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Twin, there is no Interstate that runs along Empire route. I-10 and Sunset are twins from LA to Jacksonville.
I think the Crescent would do better by changing its route. DC to ATL to DFW to ELP.
I think once Houston's ITC is built, Houston would make a better hub than NOL.
I think BTR would make a great stop. But I'm not sure how that could work without losing LCH and LAF.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: I think the Crescent would do better by changing its route. DC to ATL to DFW to ELP.
Split it at Meridian and keep the New Orleans segment as well. Unfortunately, west of Dallas, if not west of Shreveport it would be at the dubious mercies of the UP.
Wonder what it would take to get a decent run time for Jackson MS to Mobile AL (IC, ex ICRR & GM&N) so there could be a decent west and Chicago connection that would continue on east.
Think of a morning departure evening arrival at Jackson, probably ending up with an overnight Jacksonville to Miami.
Just a thought to start the ball rolling.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I was thinking a non-sleeper train between ATL and NOL if the Crescent is rerouted to DFW-ELP.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Wish all of this can come true but, El Paso is in a major fight with UP to keep the Dallas St. railyard. If UP wins they will move it over to Sunland Park about 5 miles west of the station, so there would be no place to store the train except on the platform. Then UP would get angry because it uses the station track as the second main track headed east. There is however a VERY old siding parallel to the station track which hasn't see any trains except for the occasional set out of b/o. Maybe that could be of use if any of this were to materialize.
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Whether intentionally or by accident, it appears, Mr. DC, you agree with my position regarding Sunset East.
The Northeast Corridor passenger, and for that matter his counterpart in the three California corridors, is what the future of intercity rail passenger service is all about. It is not about Sunset East that even in the best of times has always been the weakest link in Amtrak's LD system. To have been inaugurated meant at one time it had a political patron saint but that evidently is no longer the case. There is perfectly adequate alternative transportation for any prospective passenger along the route - and the number of those prospective passengers have likely been permanently diminished (what's New Orleans "best case" repopulation goal? I think about 300K -down from PREKAT 5l5K)
...
Therefore, it appears that the only advocate for resumption of service is NARP and their constituents pushing their LD advocacy agenda. I believe their propaganda includes mention of a law requiring Amtrak to run and CSX to host the train. Maybe there is, but it appears the only petitioner with desire to have any such law enforced is NARP.
If you're saying there will probably be more expansion of corridor and regional trains in the future than there will long-distance services, I agree. But if you are implying there is no place - or even a reduced role - for LD trains such as the Sunset, then I vehemently disagree. Passenger rail critics tend to harbor the idea that nobody will ride trains over 300-400 miles, but of course that is exactly how LD trains are commonly used. Few ride L.A. to Orlando (or New Orleans) on the Sunset; The train does a lot of on-and-off business at every stop (think of it as a succession of overlapping 300 mile corridors, linking to and through major cities and small towns). Even in the NE corridor, most persons boarding Acela in Boston aren't going all the way to D.C. - LD trains fulfill a similar role.
The Sunset's true problem isn't the distance between the end points (the lack of timekeeping with an already over-padded schedule, however, is another matter). Look at it this way: there are thousands of people traveling every day east of New Orleans (whatever the current population), far more than sufficient to fill at least one train a day. But it is not reasonable to judge the success of a tri-weekly Sunset by the standards of a corridor operation.
Amtrak is required by law to give 180-day notice before removing all service on a given route. Therefore, sooner or later Amtrak is going to have to annouce [I]something{/I]in regards to the Sunset's future. I will say one thing, and that if the train is not to return permanantly, it seems foolish to have to bring it back for just 180 days. Something should have been done long before now.
Posts: 72 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I think the route it's running right now is turning a profit. They should just make a new train to JAX, and leave the Sunset to run its historic route with a decent amount of ridership. Every time I go down to the station there are at least 30 people if not more boarding #1 or #2. They should at least tell the public that the Sunset won't go east again, instead the connecting train would. So there is no loss of service along the gulf coast.
posted
If 300-400 miles is the "magic number" which separates "Corridor" routes from LD routes, then the NE Corridor is actually an LD route -- total distance from BOS-WAS is 457 miles, and if you include WAS-NPN, the total distance BOS-NPN is 644 miles, per AMTRAK timetables, and Trains #66 and #67 are both overnight trains on this route. As others have pointed out, the "NE Corridor" has several trains a day and has a relatively high load factor, but by this definition, the "NE Corridor" is actually a short LD run, is it not? Think about it...... As others have said, most people in the "NE Corridor" do NOT travel BOS-WAS or BOS-NPN, but travel on innumerable shorter segments (NYP-BAL, NYP-WAS, PHL-NYP, PHL-WAS, etc., etc.....) Apply that to the "traditional" LD routes and it is obvious that there is no reason that the "traditional" LD routes can't do as well as the "NE Corridor" IF they were properly operated (with the cooperation of the host railroads, obviously -- especially in areas of "medium" population density such as NOL-HOS, NOL-JAX, etc.).
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Undoubtably, Mr. DC 2001, there are any number of city pairs along the Sunset Route that could support a 'Corridor' rail passenger market. After all the Sunset serves the fastest growing region of our land.
But take a peek at any travel website and note the frequency of flights between the city pairs. Southwest Airlines, that without even looking, likely serves Sunset Route city pairs, including Houston New Orleans and NO-Jax. But they have long held to a maxim of 'five a day or forget it' . If rail is not prepared to offer 'five a day' or better, then so rail had best 'forget it' - and in the Corridors that count, namely the NE and its four "feeder branches' (Albany, Hbg, Richmond, Springfield) as well as the Southern California ones, that "five a day' is met or exceeded.
I have long thought that 'Angels to Meadows' (LA-LV) would be an overnight success with "plain old trains', i.e. forget the Maglev, on-board gaming, adult floor shows, whatever. But again, 'five a day or forget it'.
Now the obvious problem; how are you going to fit 'five a day" on existing infrastructure. Embargo freight traffic? I doubt that.
Now back to the intended topic of Sunset East. Obviously both Amtrak and CSX want it gone. Now the tactic is how to get rid of it without having to resume it for the statutory '180 day notice" period, during which time, some group like NARP could well get an injunction and otherwise obstruct its orderly discontinuance. To me it appears the tactic being used is this indefinite "Katrina factor' annullment. Maybe the opposing parties in interest will just go away and move on. After all, there are strikes (labor) out there that have never been settled, and as I've noted earlier, the Korean War.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Mr Norman that is not true. Amtrak does not want to see NOL to ORL gone. Your gonna have to trust me on this, but I talked too and have a meeting with a high ranking Amtrak representive this month. This person said Amtrak is very eagered to return service east of NOL. This person said once Amtrak gives up a stop or route, it's near imposasible to get it back ever again. This person also said a top goal is to get the Cardinal and Sunset Daily service. The problem is not enough trainsets. It's cheaper to run daily vs tri-weekly. CSX may want Amtrak gone, but not Amtrak.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I guess it is time to let be bygones be bygones; The New York Times is reporting that Sen Trent Lott (R-MS) again holds a leadership post in the Senate - albeit this time in the minority party.
Sen. Lott can be considered "somewhat pro-rail" - and note where he is from - Pascagoula.
And on what route is Pascagoula?
I still wouldn't get hopes up very high; just reporting what I read.
posted
NOL is still holding its own in term of passenger boardings. You can't say that a day or two of light bookings on the Crescent justifies cancelling/rerouting the route South of ATL, for instance.
A good friend of mine just took #20 NOL-BHM last week...said that about 75 boarded in NOL...not too bad at all...and he said that they had 100+ on #19 back to NOL. It just depends on the day of the week, really. With the return of the cruise ships and the convention business in the city, you'll see the business pick up even more as time moves along.
The city of NOL may only have 200,000 (200,000 and growing), but the metro area still has over 1.2 million. It's still a market that can support rail service.
-------------------- Good morning America, how are ya?
44,950 Amtrak rail miles traveled since August 18, 2003. Posts: 135 | From: Atlanta, GA / New Orleans, LA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I don't base my opinion on NOL population. I just think the Crescent from DC to ELP would make more money than NYC to NOL.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Well I have nothing against splitting the train in Meridian, but you have to keep some service to New Orleans.
Say for instance the proposed "Crescent Star" was started...maybe just cut the train in half...something like the following...
FTW-MEI
1 baggage 1 sleeper 1 diner 2 coaches
NOL-MEI
1 baggage 1 sleeper 1 lounge 2 coaches
IMO, you still need to keep some Sleeping Car service to New Orleans; since NOL-MEI is only about four hours in length, push comes to shove, the Diner is not really needed. Lots of extra expense for just one meal service in each direction. Offer cold meal service in the Lounge to Sleeper passengers like they do on the Empire Builder between Spokane and Portland.
-------------------- Good morning America, how are ya?
44,950 Amtrak rail miles traveled since August 18, 2003. Posts: 135 | From: Atlanta, GA / New Orleans, LA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I think a new train independent of the Crescent operates between ATL and NOL. This way the service stays in that area. The new train would be a non-sleeper train operating twice a day.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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