With a nod to a couple of posters (George Harris and TwinStarRocket) on the Kansas City thread, I'll start the holiday season rolling with my 'wish list' of 5 routes I would like to see Amtrak service return (or be inuagurated for the first time) to.
In no particular order -
1) A 'Twin Star Rocket'
Service from the Twin Cities to Texas connecting to and from the Chief at Kansas City. South of KC this train might possibly go to Oklahoma City (a reroute from the original) and incorporate the Heartland Flyer.
2) Bring back the 'Pioneer'
Service Denver to Seattle through Wyoming. I know UP would love this just as much as.......
3) Bring back the 'Desert Wind'
Salt Lake City to Los Angeles via Las Vegas. It's time that Amtrak goes to Las Vegas again.
4) Some version of the 'South Wind'
Whether Amtrak ever restores the Sunset east of New Orleans or not, one huge 'missing link' is a direct train from Chicago to Florida. My preference for a new South Wind would be via Indianapolis, Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga, and Atlanta.....relying heavily on former L&N routes now operated by every passenger train rider's friend, the CSX.
5) The 'Asheville Special'.
Frommer's has just named Asheville, NC as one of the top top tourist destinations in the United States (something we who live in the area already know) and it's high time to make good on a route the NCDOT has been 'studying' since 1994. Just 140 miles from Asheville to Salisbury would link us to the rest of the national system but since we're dreaming why not turn south at Salisbury and run through Charlotte and on to Columbia, SC. Carry a through sleeper to Miami on the Silver Star. My family (Here and in Orlando) would generate probably 8-10 roundtrips a year on this train.
Looking forward to seeing other folks' additions to my wish list.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Wow, you certainly don't believe in easy routes, do you?!?! Though I do agree, especially 2, 3, and maybe 4.
Can you explain what is so exciting about Asheville, NC? I've heard of it but that's as far as my knowledge goes. Even a Google search just says "a nice place to live" which doesn't exactly tempt me!
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Good choices David. On the South Wind route, I think I'd have to go via Cincinnati - simply because the logistics are already in place to operate there and, more importantly, CUT is my all time favorite terminal.
Thanks for the service to Columbia- we appreciate that - and why not continue on to Charleston, another tourist favorite. Be good to have decent intra state service.
My additions-
1. A front range flyer: El Paso-Albuguerque -Trinidad-Colo Springs-Denver. Maybe connections north to Boulder, Ft. Collins, Cheyenne.
2, Give Virigina and Tenn DOT projects an assist and put on service from Washingotn-Lynchburg- Bristol- Knoxville. There is talk of rebuilding the old Tennesse Central route from Knoxville to Nashville (western end is now the Music City Star commuter service).
3, A connection at Cincinnati to St. Louis and KC for better western connections from the southeast. As has been discussed elsewhere, do this by splitting the Cardinal at Cinci.
4. As long as we are dreaming, how about a train linking the midwest and mid south (especially if your South Wind goes via Nashville - a good idea): Cleveland-Columbus-Cinci-Knoxville-Atlanta.
5. Great a premium level train on the Broadway Ltd route connecting to an upgraded CZ.
I'll be looking for these in the next timetable.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Through(no changes)train service in the NE corridor all the way to Portland,ME and Bangor,ME. Also full dining service (LOL) or improved meal service on trains which travel 8 hrs. or more. Capital improvements on the trackage between NYC and Boston to improve high speed Acela express service. Also improved track along the rocky, bouncing line to Florida. An accelerated, improved program of repair,and rehabilitation of rolling stock...especially the sleepers.
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Geoff M: Wow, you certainly don't believe in easy routes, do you?!?! Though I do agree, especially 2, 3, and maybe 4.
Can you explain what is so exciting about Asheville, NC? I've heard of it but that's as far as my knowledge goes. Even a Google search just says "a nice place to live" which doesn't exactly tempt me!
Geoff M.
Hi Geoff,
The big draws for Asheville would be the nearby Great Smoky Mountains, the famous Biltmore House which was George Vanderbilt's (of the New York Central Vanderbilts) estate, and the boyhood home of early 20th century novelist Thomas Wolfe.
Asheville is also becoming increasingly popular with the counter-culture types. Garrison Keillor has called Asheville "the Santa Fe of the East".....as in Santa Fe, New Mexico....not the railroad!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by palmland: Good choices David. On the South Wind route, I think I'd have to go via Cincinnati - simply because the logistics are already in place to operate there and, more importantly, CUT is my all time favorite terminal.
Also good.
You would be recreating the 'Royal Palm' rather than the 'South Wind' but I would have no complaints with that.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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1) City of New Orleans extended to at least Jacksnoville (at least get it to Florida) then connections can be made with the Silver Service trains.
2) Pioneer - perhaps a section just from Salt Lake City to Seattle would be more easier to launch than on UP's overland route.
3) Rail service to connect the 3-C's in the Midwest.
4) Split the Crescent at Meridian and run a section to Texas (Ft. Worth or Dallas) - the Crescent Star plan. Would provide connectivity on various north-south Amtrak lines in the region
5) Overnight routes - be it LA to San Fransisco, Montreal to NYC, Boston to Washington, New York City to Pittsburgh, Washington to Vermont.
Posts: 337 | Registered: Jun 2003
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and while we're dreaming, how about an extra train or two between Chicago & Minneapolis, thru Milwaukee. Only service now is the Empire Builder. And BTW Milwaukee got slammed this morning by 10" of snow between 4 AM and noon. According to the radar, it seems isolated to Chicago & southeastern Wisconsin, so it might not delay the Empire Builder today
-------------------- My new "default" station (EKH) has no baggage service or QuikTrak machine, but the parking is free! And the NY Central RR Museum is just across the tracks (but not open at Amtrak train times. . ..) Posts: 337 | From: Goshen, IN | Registered: Jun 2006
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I concur regarding the need for a KC - Twin Cities train. Also, a Omaha - St. Paul train.
Of course, the first thing that I would do if I could get Amtrak the funding would to have two trains per day over the existing routes, separated by, say 8, or 12 hours. Two EB and Two WB trains per route each day. While the direct costs would increase, there would be more passenger traffic to offset these.
The 3x/week trains would also become daily, too.
Re route the Empire Builder's route to swing through Madison, WI. This would require some considerable funding, though. WI DOT estimates US $ 50 million just to fix the tracks between Portage and Mad Town from Class 2-3 to Class 4 (59 mph speed limit). Several million $$ more to fix up the track between Madison and Milwaukee, though much of that is already class 3.
There is the option of using the current WSOR (ex-MILW) line via Whitewater and Milton, WI to get from Mad Town to Milw. I think it has been upgraded and improved by the State of WI to FRA Class 3 specs. That line was part of the first line built between those two municipalities.
-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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There was a period when I worked with a summer youth organization in Madison and would have loved to have been able to fly into Milwaukee and take the train to Madison from there.
Realistically speaking, improving the track through Sun Prairie and extending three or four Hiawathas into is more likely to happen before any of the items on my wish list.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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The 3x a week trains absolutely should be daily, esp for the Cardinal.
The most needed train is FL to Chicago, via Atlanta, Chattanooga & Nashville. And, if possible, it should stop in Tallahassee too.
It would be nice to have a train in Asheville, NC, too.
Train service to Las Vegas is a definite need.
And Arizona has grown a plenty and should have stops in Phoenix/Scottsdale. In fact, there ought to be a train from Flagstaff to Phoenix and Scottsdale to Tucson, if that is physically possible.
Ohio is the sort of state that should have trains at least as good as Pennsylvania's, but doesn't. There should be a round robin train serving Cleveland, Akron, Columbus, Cincinnati, and Toledo.
There ought to be a train to get to Yellowstone Park and Mt Rushmore and somewhere reasonablly accessible to Bryce Canyon.
And there ought to be more trains up to Canada. There should be more than one Cascades train up to Vancouver, BC, and it should go Portland to Seattle to Vancouver, and return; not just between Seattle and Vancouver. That train from Chicago to Toronto through Detroit should be reinstated. And there ought to be a train from Minneapolis to Winnepeg. And if physically possible, there ought to be a train up to Calgary too.
Yes, bring back the Pioneer. Would that stop in both Boise and Helena? Because there really ought to be stops there
And bring back that Kentucky train too.
There also ought to be train stops in Boise, Helena, Tulsa, and Wichita.
And definitely more service in Maine. And New Hampshire too.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Thogh not Dream routes but I think it would be nice if we could get service between major city's which might bet some traffic off the roads. Restore rail service to Louisville to Cinncinatti. Ever thought of connecting Detroit with Toledo? High Point to Ashville would be nice though could be a nice tourist train to Ashville especially during Autum and When Biltmore is decorated for Christmas. Out West it seems that if they are going to play around with High Speed Trains a route from LA to Las Vegas would be the optimium area to build it. Also restore a a daytime train to Pittsburgh would be nice it could terminate in Pittsburgh or perhaps terminating at Cleveland. Why would some one want to get off a train in Pittsburgh at 7:30 PM?
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Last night I was working on publishing some of the Florida service timetables, including the South Wind from June 1941. You can see exactly what I'm talking about here.
Take a look at that timetable, and specifically at the connections in Jacksonville for Tampa and St. Petersburg. After a nearly twelve-hundred-mile overnight run, they expected that passengers would be able to make connections scheduled to depart fifteen minutes (to Tampa) and five minutes (to St. Petersburg) after the scheduled arrival of the train. A very tightly scheduled arrival, at that--the South Wind averaged over 52 miles an hour between Chicago and Jacksonville including all stops and steam engine changes.
A five minute connection. After twelve hundred miles and twenty-three hours. That isn't even enough time to change engines! And this isn't just some coincidence between schedules; it appears in the South Wind's timetable as an official connection and apparently was booked and sold on a routine basis. And June 1941 is six months after the debut of the train and its siblings (City of Miami, Dixie Flagler); by then the various roads had enough actual operating experience to know basically what to expect in the way of on-time performance. And in order to keep offering it, they must have made this tight connection more often than not.
Five minutes. To someone like me who has grown up with Amtrak, that boggles the mind. How in the world did we ever come so far--in the WRONG direction--so fast?
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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David, I would have to add to your "joys of Asheville" Carl Sandburg;s home just outside the city,the beautiful waterfalls, in city restaurants and artist galleries. There is just about every type of craft. We ate at an excellent mid east retaurant one night and were entertained by a terrific belly dancer. Also I am told that it is an ideal retirement place because of all the services offered.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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How could I have forgotten Carl Sandburg's home in Flat Rock? One of my co-workers has a sister who, as a college student, worked for Carl Sandburg helping sort and catalog his collections of stuff.
I find it interesting that his house has been left more or less as it was the day he died. Nearly forty years later and it's as if the poet might return to his typewriter at any moment.
Mr. Bowen -
I am really enjoying your streamliner website. Is there any chance at some point you could add a link to a period photograph of each train you are documenting? The Louisville & Nashville streamlined one of their steam locomotives (seems like it might have been #295) and painted it tuscan red to match the cars on the South Wind. This locomotive was assigned exclusively to the South Wind while on L&N rails. A photo of this locomotive blasting out of Louisville would be a nice illustration of the 1941 South Wind.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I am really enjoying your streamliner website. Is there any chance at some point you could add a link to a period photograph of each train you are documenting? The Louisville & Nashville streamlined one of their steam locomotives (seems like it might have been #295) and painted it tuscan red to match the cars on the South Wind. This locomotive was assigned exclusively to the South Wind while on L&N rails. A photo of this locomotive blasting out of Louisville would be a nice illustration of the 1941 South Wind.
You know, Mr. Pressley, that's an excellent idea. I'm not sure that I want to get into serious picture hosting, but a link to a resource such as RailPictures.net (where I found the image of the Texas Chief I use in my site logo) shouldn't be difficult. I was thinking, anyway, of putting in some of the items that are already in the Guide, such as the 2 full page advertisement for the Silver Meteor in the SAL section of the June 1941 Guide. Possibly a few buttons at the bottom of the navigation bar on each timetable page, labeled "Photo Gallery" or some such?
Let me work on it. Might take a while before you see results; right now I'm wanting to concentrate on filling up the blank pages in my "concourse". I'd also like to do a for-real help page for those who may not be experienced at reading a railroad timetable. So it may sit on the back burner a while, but I do think that it would eventually be a worthwhile addition. Thanks.
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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1. Desert Wind. Maybe extend it north of Salt Lake City to Boise or Coeur d'Alene.
2. Pioneer.
3. I concur with Palmland's suggestion for the Front Range Flyer. There needs to be another north-south route between the west coast and the midwest, through Denver.
4. Personal fantasy: The 49er, from Reno to Monterey via Sacramento-Oakland-San Jose. Two major tourist destinations at the endpoints with a major urban customer base in between.
5. Extend the California Zephyr to LA as an overnight train. California's passenger rail associations have been advocating that for quite awhile.
You'll notice a distinct western bias here. Apologies to the rest of the country.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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Some great suggestions: I will definitely have to agree with bringing back the Pioneer and Desert Wind. Whatever happened to the suggestion, at one time, to combine the Pioneer and Desert Wind as a loop from LA, Las Vegas, Utah, and Portland? I would like to see the Pioneer from Portland to Pocatello, down to Ogen then up to Wyoming and over to Cheyenne, and finally down to Denver. How about a branch from Pocatello to Yellowstone?
It would be nice to have the Cascades go through from Portland to Seattle to Vancouver, BC. It also would be nice for a morning Cascade out of Vancouver, instead of 6PM. How about a Cascade from Eugene down to Sacramento, and all-daylight as per the old Shasta route along Highway 5 through Grants Pass, Medford, Mt Shasta, etc.
I like the Palmland suggestion for a connection between El Paso, Albuquerque, Trinidad, & Denver, and Cheyenne. How about on to Casper, Billings, and Havre to meet up with the EB?
And a final Amtrak Fantasy Camp suggestion, how about bringing back the old Northern Pacific route from the Dakotas down to Billings, Bosemann, Butte, Missoula, and over to Spokane..then either to Seattle or from Spokane down to Pasco and Portland? Maybe even a branch down from Livingston or Bozeman to the northern entrance of Yellowstone, as in the old days.
Well, I can dream, can't I?
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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I believe there are no good rail connections to Havre or Coeur d'Alene from the south. But running a shuttle across the Columbia River to connect the Pioneer to the Empire Builder would get you there.
Grand Forks to Winnipeg would be nice. Is the old Santa Fe line from Flagstaff to Phoenix still in good shape? There is a UP line from the transcon to El Paso through Alamogordo, NM that still runs fast freights and is scenic. That could be a fast route to Tucson and Phoenix from the midwest.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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It's never made sense to me that there is no Chicago-Atlanta-Orlando-Miami train. That seems to be a big gap in the system.
However, I'd most like to see more than anything else, an overnight SAN JOAQUIN train (with sleeping cars) between Sacramento and Los Angeles, with train service all the way to L.A. There could also be a section from SFO/OAK/EMY - Los Angeles.
Posts: 134 | From: New York, New York USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
Posts: 134 | From: New York, New York USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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I am a Brit who has been contributing to this forum for nearly five years but I never take part in threads of a "political" nature and rarely into those with even a tenous quasi-political link (because how you choose to run your country is none of my business)so I hope you'll forgive me if I have my two cents worth on this occasion.
We all look back with rose-tinted glasses at former days and convince ourselves how wonderful they were - it is human nature. In the UK we lost over a third of our passenger railways in little more than a decade and now we look at gridlocked roads, high gas prices and urban smog and say "why ever did they shut the railways" but the truth is that they cost a fortune to run and the stark fact is that nobody was using them. Only last week I saw a documentary in which a railway worker from the 1960s admitted that the trains were empty.
20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.
You have just had a change of government and possibly the new electees will have a diffent view to the outgoing legislators. But just be warned that this is not always the case - the plan to axe so many of the railways in the UK was brought in by a Convervative government. Within eighteen months Labour were re-elected and the rail lobby said "hooray" as the plans were still being opposed and fought locally and many of the lines were still open but apart from saving one or two politically sensitive routes that passed through marginal wards they did nothing to reverse the legislation and far more railways closed under the new Labour government who had opposed the legislation than under the Conservatives who had proposed it! The cuts of 1979, and the demise of the Desert Wind and The Pioneer came under Democratic Presidents, remember.
It is very easy to forget that the Desert Wind, which you would think would have been a cast-iron safe strategic route (LA to Chicago via Denver) was axed because passenger numbers had fallen to absolutely ridiculously low numbers. On the Sunset Ltd I talked to the cafe car attendant, a 20-year Amtrak veteran, who used to work the Desert Wind, and he said that on one trip there were just ELEVEN passengers on board when the train left LA. If it was restored as a branch just as far as Las Vegas then yes, I think it could generate sustainable and justifiable numbers, especially if it was a high-speed route of some sort. But what makes you think it would be any more successful now between LVS and SLC then it was before?
I've always believed that Any Amtrak expansion should be based on enhancing its credilility. I think medium distance "city pairs" are the immediate way forward. I know we are looking at separate issues when you look at things like distances and densities of population but in the UK it would be unthinkable for there to be no train service between major cities like Manchester and Birmingham or if cities the size of Sheffield or Bristol had no trains at all or just one train a day. My local branch line halt gets more trains in a day than Houston gets in a month!
Therefore my short-term Top 5 wishlist would be two trains a day each way between:
1. Los Angeles and San Francisco 2. Los Angeles and Phoenix 3. Los Angeles and Las Vegas 4. Dallas and Houston 5. Houston and New Orleans
If you looked at changing/extending existing routes on a best-coverage-for-minimum-cost basis then I would consider:
1. Re-routing the Zephyr through Des Moines and extending it from Emeryville to Los Angeles 2. Re-routing the SW Chief through Wichita and Amarillo 3. Re-routing the Sunset from Houston through Dallas and west Texas (part of the Meridian Crescent plan, I think it was called)
and if any long distance routes were to be developed or re-instated, I think that Chicago to Florida or Denver to Texas should take priority.
You then have to look at issues such as Columbus, Tulsa and Nashville and other major conurbations without passenger rail.
Make no mistake that the outlook for ALL forms of public transport is stronger and more positive at the moment than it has been for decades, but money will be limited and will have to be spent wisely and for the best return. If that means building a short-distance commuter line instead of restoring The Pioneer then I'm afraid that's the choice you'll have to make, because if you really want to make a difference your officials have to change their entire mindset as to the rail industry.
Amtrak gets along on around $1 billion dollars a year. You need probably 10 times that to replace and improve the rolling stock and 50 or 100 times that to put the infrastructure right but what a wonderful carrot to offer the freight railroads - we will give you a massive capital injection of Federal money to update/improve/double track whatever you need, but there's one condition: you must allow Amtrak full, unfettered and priority access to your routes.
If I was a freight stockholder I might think that an excellent offer!
Posts: 395 | From: england | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
It would increase passenger numbers. It would increase interest. Increasing numbers and interest leads to an increase in routes.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
It would increase passenger numbers. It would increase interest. Increasing numbers and interest leads to an increase in routes.
No it wouldn't. Passengers do not care what engine is pulling the train, except for a railfan interested in old fashioned steam engines.
Posts: 134 | From: New York, New York USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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Valid points and your post is well-taken. Of the routes I suggest, I'm afraid that none are likely to return....except for perhaps a link to Asheville with the NCDOT behind it. The next most likely would be Los Angeles to Las Vegas only.
Regardless......we'll take even small advances at this point!
As for the other debate - I would rather Amtrak run it's passenger trains well than get distracted by the incredible expense of running a steam program. I certainly would not mind if one of the several large restored steam locomotives still existant showed up on the point of an Amtrak train every now and then BUT Amtrak has no business trying to maintain steam on it's own.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: My wish would be for Amtrak to lease/buy/restore 1 or 2 steam engines...Maybe the only 2 remaining f1 sister engines 975 and 982 or maybe Daylight. Run steamengines on point maybe twice a month on different LD trains.
What practical purpose would that serve? How would that improve service? How would that facilitate a new route?
It would increase passenger numbers. It would increase interest. Increasing numbers and interest leads to an increase in routes.
No it wouldn't. Passengers do not care what engine is pulling the train, except for a railfan interested in old fashioned steam engines.
Yes it would. Rail travel outside the NEC is a novelty. Steam trains today are novelties. Amtrak suffers because they too refuse to think outside the box. You know what I mean.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr williams has put us all to shame. It just shows that the farther a person is from a "problem", often the surer that person's estimate of the sitution is.
Maybe it would be a good idea if every improvement offered here should have to include two items: the suggested upfront cost of starting the service and the associated annual extra net operating cost for Amtrak.
-------------------- John Pawson Posts: 137 | From: Willow Grove, PA | Registered: Dec 2005
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When you make a wish, you don't ask for the cost. That is why it's a wish. Geeez, will they ban dreaming next.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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As California increased the number of trains on its state funded routes, the number of passengers per train increased.
It has also be well said that increased connectivity increases ridership. That is why such things as Twin Cities to Texas with connectivity both ways in Kansas City is important. Similarly, a north-south Denver to El Paso with connectivity at Albuquerque is useful.
Yes, bot of these would require some track upgrades. Even as the CRIP was failing, they still scheduled Minneapolis to Kansas City in 10 hours. Whatever needs doing to run at least that fast, and faster would be better, should be done. South of KC it would not be the same route. Maybe use the MKT line, or the BNSF through Tulsa (former Frisco), or Oklahoma City (former ATSF). This should split at Dallas or Ft. Worth into Houston and San Antonio sections.
While we are talking Kansas City, how about Omaha-KC-Memphis-Birmingham-Atlanta-Jacksonville, or Birmingham-Montgomery-Tallahassee-Jacksonville. This could also form a Chicago to Florida, vut via Memphis instead of Atlanta. Yes, we are talking some track money again, but if we can not at least approach a normal drive with meal stops time, it is probably not worth doing.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: Yes it would. Rail travel outside the NEC is a novelty. Steam trains today are novelties. Amtrak suffers because they too refuse to think outside the box. You know what I mean.
20th Century is correct. Few people ride the train for a novelty; even fewer - myself as a train fan included - care whether it's a steam engine, a diesel, or an electric loco.
If there was that much of a market, then somebody would have niched it by now.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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If there was that much of a market, then somebody would have niched it by now.
Geoff M.
Actually there is a niche market for trains pulled by steam locomotives - The former Rio Grande narrow guages in Colorado are very popular. The Tennessee Valley Railway Museum sells out it's all-day Autumn Leaf Specials from Chattanooga, TN to Summerville, GA every weekend in October and well into November. Numerous other tourist railroads do very well when their steam locomotives are up and running.
What is missing are mainline excursions pulled by the largest locomotives. We don't see those in the south anymore since Norfolk Southern pulled the plug on their steam program BUT Union Pacific still has a pair of the big locomotives and then there is the Milwaukee 261 which prowls up and down the Mississippi River out of the Twin Cities several times a year.
These are what they are and the steam operations are something I find to be a great deal of fun. However, it's not a niche Amtrak is poised to capture nor is that a niche Amtrak should be expected to capture. Historic steam operations are outside the realm of Amtrak's mission - providing a safe, economical, and more or less reliable transportation to those of us who, for whatever reason, chose to use it.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
The really sad part is Amtrak agrees with the anti-creative thinking. As a result, Amtrak never improves.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: The really sad part is Amtrak agrees with the anti-creative thinking. As a result, Amtrak never improves.
There are several documented examples of steam locomotives pulling Amtrak trains in the 1970's and 1980's. It's not like it hasn't been tried.
I agree with you that steam locomotives are entertaining and I agree with you that they generate interest in railroad operations. I hope that we will always have historical organizations to keep those steam locomotives operating.
My only disagreement is that Amtrak (and the Federal dollars behind Amtrak) should be spent on things other than maintaining steam locomotives. Clean, attractive modern equipment (like Talgo trains with their super-huge windows running through Pennsylvania or up the Hudson River) would go further than a steam locomotive in attracting new riders.
I wouldn't quite say that Amtrak not operating a steam locomotive is evidence of a lack of creativity on Amtrak's part.
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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If there was that much of a market, then somebody would have niched it by now.
Geoff M.
Actually there is a niche market for trains pulled by steam locomotives - [...]What is missing are mainline excursions pulled by the largest locomotives.
Sorry, that's what I meant. I've been on a couple of tourist railroads myself, but you very rarely hear of a mainline steam train.
Mind you, steam engines are not good for hotbox detectors!
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
First, Amtrak need not to own or maintain. Rent a steamer. I didn't say full time service. I said twice a month on a different LD route.
Second, everytime an excursion steam train run, ppl line the tracks or meet the train at a stop. It amazes me how many of you believe not 1 person extra would ride Amtrak on the 2 runs per month. These ppl want to see the train from the tracks but nooooo one wants to ride. Makes perfect sense to you all.
Third, I could write a book on Amtrak lack creativity. Amtrak failure is due to not thinking outside the box.
Posts: 562 | From: Beaumont Texas | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by gp35: First, Amtrak need not to own or maintain. Rent a steamer. I didn't say full time service. I said twice a month on a different LD route.
Second, everytime an excursion steam train run, ppl line the tracks or meet the train at a stop. It amazes me how many of you believe not 1 person extra would ride Amtrak on the 2 runs per month. These ppl want to see the train from the tracks but nooooo one wants to ride. Makes perfect sense to you all.
Third, I could write a book on Amtrak lack creativity. Amtrak failure is due to not thinking outside the box.
Hi GP35,
Before I start disagreeing with you all over again, I do think that you and I are closer in what we like and in our frustration over Amtrak has not done well enough.
I don't disagree that a steam train would sell extra tickets on that particular run. It would. Just not to me! I personally would fly in, rent a car, and chase the locomotive taking photographs rather than ride the train. In other words, I would be one of the people lining the tracks! I've already ridden most of the Amtrak routes and you don't get to enjoy the engine so much from on the train.
Issues with using leased steam is that those locomotives are most often maintained by volunteer organizations. That means the host railroads are going to throw a fit over liability issues. As Geoff notes, that would play havoc with the hotbox detectors. That's before you even get started on the cost to maintain the locomotive. The more you use it the more it costs and no one has pockets that deep when you consider Amtrak and the handful of historical societies which have their hands on operable large steam locomotives.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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