[This message has been edited by Gilbert B Norman (edited 04-10-2002).]

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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

The Del Monte Club Car

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Originally posted by RICK777200:
HOW CRAMPED IS THE ECONOMY ROOM? WHAT NICE FEATURES DOES IT HAVE? IS IT WORTH THE MONEY? (ON A SUPERLINER TRAIN.)

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The actual dimensions are 3'-6" wide by 6'-6" long. A Deluxe Room is 6'-6" long and 7'-6" wide (including the toilet annex)

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Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale) www.geocities.com/evrr

I agree with Mr. Atwell's statement that the best way to assure viewing of scenery on both sides of the train is to visit the lounge car. After all, it's free, and there is no one hovering over you until you order a drink. Further, with a Standard, you cannot control what the occupant(s) across the hall are going to do. Possibly they could care less about, say, the New River and like to "nap" during the day (guess some people have "body clocks" that permit that), and as such, their blinds would be closed.

Now to move this post in a different but related direction. While over at railroad.net, I often contended that passengers whom would have preferred Deluxe, have had to settle for Standard on the Viewliner trains. Another thought to consider that I have posted elsewhere is the imbalance of rooms, be they Standard, Deluxe, or Special, between trains inbound to Chicago, and those outbound to the East. It would appear that 132 rooms arrive in Chicago on Trains 4,6,&8, while 104 depart on 30,40,&48. On the days 50 operates, the ante is up to 126. I realize that this takes the simplistic view that everyone arriving at Chicago is connecting to the East, but I would guess this should provide some food for thought and discussion.

Railroads "in days of yore" tried economy sleeper arrangements. In fact, my railroad, the MILW, acquired new 14 Section economy sleepers that were marketed under the name of "Touralux". The only problem was there were no inhernet economics to justify a lesser accomodation rate. In order to justify such, there must be a "breakthrough" design, such as the Budd Slumbercoach that accomodated 40 passengers.

So, I think Amtrak already has the economy sleeper in place; it's called the Viewliner Standard Bedroom.

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Originally posted by Jim:

Incidentally, I read once that Amtrak actually converted an Amfleet coach into a section sleeper as an experiment. Don't know what the result was (but I imagine the upper berth was pretty tight!)

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Naturally, my answer is yes; but then again I'm not exactly about to "revisit" an overnight coach ride, or, in the absence of traveling overseas, a "redeye" flight.

But the beauty of a Forum is that someone will post here with equally cogent reasoning stating a sleeper is not worth it.

Further, allow me to comment on "Jim's" post regarding open Section sleepers, on which I had numerous rides in the past. A further disadvantage for the Upper Berth passenger is that the forward riding seat belonged to the Lower Berth. While I guess passengers away from North America would wonder "what's the big deal", "we" (US and Canada; lest we forget there are as good as no passenger trains in Mexico anymore) all seem to have a strong preference towards "forward riding" (which by way was a "booking" agent's term, in the same manner as was "POSH").

[This message has been edited by Gilbert B Norman (edited 04-14-2002).]

Eventually, the only service to have the sleepers with sections will be the western transcontinental run of the "Canadian." This is the train on which sections are the least popular. It is Via's intention to use the sleepers displaced on all other trains by the Renaissance cars to offer expanded service in the west.

I realise that open sections lost their popularity in the U.S. a long time ago. On my first Amtrak trip in 1972 on the "Coast Starlight" our assigned sleeping car had been replaced by a car which contained several open sections. Our assigned bedroom did not exist, so we temporarily sat in a section until another room was found for us. Other sleeper passengers passing by made comments about how unusual it was to see such a section. Some even looked down their noses at us as if we weren't really first class passengers. Thirty years later, it is still considered first class to travel in a section aboard Via Rail, but I doubt that it would be acceptable to re-introduce this type of accommodation in the U.S.

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Originally posted by JAChooChoo:
In 1978, 60 passsenger Amfleet I coaches 21867 and 21882 has 3 rows of seats removed and 2 modified Superliner Economy Room modules installed. They were returned to their original configuration in 1981.

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Do you know where I can find any photos?

First, I do not think the in room "facilties" are an advantage; the principal reason is that when parties of two are occupying a Viewliner Standard, one must leave the room while the other "engages". This resulted in a situation I observed on a June Lake Shore trip where half-clad males were standing about the hallway. I have never observed same on a Superliner. The in room facilities result in a narrower bed than in the Superliner.

Further, the communal shower in the Superliners has considerably more room available than same in the Viewliner. Also, on now two occasions, I have had to remove the luggage stored in the Shower room simply so that I could make use of such. While to do so was annoying, I kept those thought to myself simply because there was nowhere else to stow it. The Superliner simply has so much more space for storing carry-on luggage.

To me, the walk down the hall "to go" is simply "no big deal".

I will readily acknowledge that the upper level windows give the Viewliner a "light and airy" feeling; also, the in-room video system hopefully means less of those incursions into lounge car "chatting and viewing" time. I would think that the video system could be "retroed" into the existing Superliner fleet; the upper level windows likely will have to wait for an order of Superliner III's.

As to Superliner vs. Viewliner:

1) If you're in a Viewliner room by yourself, sleep in the upper berth. It's wider, more comfortable, and leaves you room underneath in which to dress, open suitcases, etc.

2) Seats in Superliner economies are wider and more comfortable than in Viewliners. However, the upper berth (even in deluxe rooms) is claustrophobic (my wife couldn't stand it, so I had to switch with her).

Anyway, I saw you ask about the family room too. If you can book a family room it is a better deal and it is nice to keep the family together. However if you and the wife want to join the 80 mile and hour club, you may need seperate rooms :-)!

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Originally posted by CarterB:
Just out of curiosity......who here has ridden VIA using a lower berth . . .

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Two nights, Montreal to Winnipeg. I had a great time, but it was the Canadian, after all. It's hard to be objective, because much of my enthusiasm stemmed from the novelty of riding in such storied accomodation, but overall I preferred it to what I've seen of the Viewliner standard.

In my view, a section sleeper is a trade-off between roominess and privacy. A section is limited to 2 people (adults, anyway) even though there is room for four. In effect, each person gets a couch during the day. At night, it's the biggest bed on revenue rails. Daytime privacy is not that bad. The only other people visible are those across the aisle. Since Via's sections are portions of sleeping cars, there's minimal through-traffic in the aisles.

Via's section sleeper page: http://www.viarail.com/classes/en_serv_visi_cosu.html

I wonder why a light curtain couldn't be supplied to use during the day just to give a little privacy. Personally, I prefer to see out both sides of the train & spend a little people watching time.
Reggie

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Originally posted by reggierail: I wonder why a light curtain couldn't be supplied to use during the day just to give a little privacy.

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I always wondered that myself. With daytime curtains, one would basically have a room without bathroom facilities. Sections have been in service since the end of the 19th Century. No one ever thought of this?

The Viewliner sleepers have grown on me and I do find the a/c controls and output far better than in Superliners where the hallway usually feels cooler than the room. The headroom and window make the Viewliner upper bed far better than the tight Superliner upper.

However, the negative part of the Viewliner standard room is its tightness due to the toilet. The lower bed is way too narrow as about 2 inches of the mattress are below the padded armrest and you cannot put your arm in between. The luggage storage space above the hall is okay but it won't store more than one large suitcase and a duffel bag. On a transcontinental trip, two people may be taking 2 large pullman bags plus other stuff. There is no other luggage space in the car. The video system is okay except when your travel companion wants to watch something that is annoying while you are trying to enjoy the passing scenery. The Viewliner shower has better ventilation, i.e., it doesn't get steamy inside the shower room and I find it suitable for changing clothes. However, they need a community potty to help those sharing a room with someone else.

Another comment re: Viewliners...the deluxe rooms are over the wheels and you get lots of noise if your neighbor has the blasted video sound turned way up as happened to us recently (the partition between rooms is not very thick).

The Viewliners have extra space for storing luggage at the top of the room, which is nice -- Superliners have the "common area" on the lower level for storing luggage, and on one trip I took several years ago, I had suitcases stored below, and in the middle of the night, an elderly couple detrained and took my suitcases by mistake!! Of course, I didn't realize that until the morning, and it took about 4 days for my suitcases to catch back up with me! So I keep my bags in my room now, and Viewliners have more room available. No matter what accomodations, though, I usually open up both the top and bottom bunk in my rooms, and the top bunk is used for storing suitcases.

I have ridden on VIA too -- in 1999 I took a trip on the Canadian, and enjoyed that very much -- the roomettes are very nice accomodations (I was in a "Manor" car), and, as usual, I spent most of the time in the dome car which is only for the use of those passengers in whatever 3- or 4-car "section" of the train you are in -- great trip, and I got to know many of my fellow passengers who also spent most of the 4-day trip in the dome car.

So I don't care if I am in a Viewliner, a Superliner, or a Heritage roomette -- the other option is coach, and I will NOT take coach on an overnight trip!!! Sleepers are definitely worth the money!!

John