posted
The news reports say that part of the bridge collapsed onto a freight train - anybody have any more details? Was it parked up or moving, and what was it carrying? Thankfully, it seems that the cargo must have been non-flammable or it could have been an even worse disaster.
Is this the same rail route as taken by the Empire Builder?
Posts: 395 | From: england | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
The freight train under the bridge was on dead end track, that used to be the feeder into the Great Northern Passenger Station. It was very likely those train cars had been sitting on the tracks for weeks.
These tracks led to the famous Stone Arch Bridge built by James J. Hill, known as the "Empire Builder" for whom the train is named. Built strictly as a way for passenger trains to get into downtown, this winding s-curved bridge over the Mississippi is said to be so strong and well-built that it is nearly indestructable.
Now it is a beautiful pedestrian overlook of St. Anthony Falls and the locks, and it is an attraction I highly recommend for visitors to Minneapolis.
The Empire Builder runs parallel to these tracks about a mile away, and has not gone through downtown Minneapolis since Amtrak moved to a station midway between the Twin Cities.
There are always quite a few pedestrians and bikers (including me) enjoying the river who pass underneath the bridge that is now collapsed. I hope there were none unfortunate enough to be there last night.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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The news media said this was NOT a terrorist attack, but I am not so sure about that.........
Citizens reportedly heard some distinct "explosions" before the bridge collapsed, and it collapsed in 4 specific places -- very well could have been bombs, couldn't it have? I know there are no earthquakes in Minnesota......
What is the feeling up there, Mr. Twin Star?
For George H - news media says the bridge had a "structural collapse." Is this possible?
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rich, they also said that there was a work crew of 24 repairing the bridge so there are a number of possibilities. Don't you think if it were a terrorist deed the responsible group would have made a claim? Frankly I don't think it serves any useful purpose to speculate, Here in the DC area we are so attuned to terrorist possibilities thatis the first thing people think about. We have been sent notices by the local gov't and the red cross to prepare for emergencies, supplies to have on hand and how to evacuate the area or shelter in place etc. I assume there are other places doing te same. So lets just wait and see.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
The repair work on the bridge was surface work and not structural. Lanes were closed and traffic was funneled into a smaller area.
They ruled out terrorism quite early, but an investigation will probably take months to determine the cause. As for explosions, citizens also reported seeing pedestrians and bicycles fall off the bridge. It's a freeway bridge. No pedestrians and bicycles allowed. They take the parallel bridge, built to last in the '20s.
Minnesota did have a very slight earthquake in the 80's but they would never be strong enough to take a bridge down.
On another thread (Grandluxe & booze)I mentioned there was a same day article before the collapse about the next bridge downstream, built at the same time, being judged unsafe for light rail.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
The same thing happened in Connecticut in 1983, when the Mianus River Bridge on I-95 collapsed. Cause was determined to be poor design, and lack of maintainence. CT embarked on a major program to beef up just about every bridge in the state.
Posts: 133 | From: Canaan, CT | Registered: Dec 2004
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If it was a terrorist act, which I really, really don't think it is, it hasn't created terror.
I appreciate the info above concerning where the Empire Builder goes thru twin cities - I've been curious if it passed under that bridge.
I've heard it collapsed on a rail car that had "chemical beads", but exposure wasn't deemed risky.
Posts: 7 | From: Atlanta | Registered: Aug 2006
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Well TwinStar, happy to hear that you weren't biking under that bridge. I knew you would offer some detailed info of the area around the bridge. Thanks. I seem to think that it was the bridge's design which was the problem. But time will tell. I'm no expert on it. I read a brief explanation about the design on internet news. I myself have a problem transversing some bridges. everytime I travel to Long Island, NY to visit family I hope traffic is not stopped on the Verrazano-Narrows bridge which connects Staten Island and Brooklyn. If they still had ferry service between Staten Island and Brooklyn I would use it instead of crossing that bridge. Of course direct Amtrak service to Long Island would be a fantasy come true.
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
This is not the first of such incidents; a thought with which I'm certain Mr. Harris will concur, is that our infrastructure is simply "worn out".
I was "out there" visiting family when this incident noted earlier by RussM occurred during 1983:
posted
I saw a video of the bridge collapse. It appeared the structure failed at one of the supports and took the other support and bridge with it.
I've seen wrought iron being held in place by the numerous layers of paint Perhaps they will find the interior of those rectangular structure members had rusted from the inside-out.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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This bridge is just upstream of the I-35W collapse, and will probably outlast its replacement.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sometime between six months and a year from now there should be a fairly exhaustive report from the NTSB on this collapse. Until then you can regard what is said about this collapse as guesswork. (The level of certainty in most early comments is usually inversely proportioned to the level ofknowledge behind the comment.) I am not about to make any guesses in public because 1. I don't know enough about what happend to comment, and 2. If that was not enough, it has been "strongly suggested" by our management that if asked to comment about this subject in public to refrain from doing so.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Along with the majority of regional residents, I used this bridge several times each week, so it is a strange feeling to say the least to hear of this collapse. Many times while driving over this bridge I would sneak a look over my shoulder to the view of the stone arch bridge lighted up at night and the beautiful view of downtown Minneapolis. Just the other week I went to the Guthrie theater to a play nearby to this bridge, and watched the aquatennial fireworks over the river. I think I heard it averaged around 140,000 cars a day, so it will certainly be difficult to replace in the short term. I saw in the paper before all of this, that the highway bridge they were planning on using for the new light-rail central corridor line to St. Paul was not able support the additional weight and would have to be fixed up. That is a short distance downriver from this one. It perhaps would be impossible to combine the two projects, but I hope they at least are aware of each other and get either one or both bridges built or rebuilt as quickly as possible. It's predictable, but I think it is disingenous for people to immediately cry for more taxes and spending and claim all the infrastructure in the country is going to H in an H basket. Infrastructure is important, but it is also a special interest of people just like education or health care or the environment or defense. It's like claiming you need a cop on every street-corner every time there is a murder or crime. Public Policy is full of compromises. Everyone in education claims their issue deserves the most money because it's "for the children", people in health care say our natural health is the most important thing in the world. Defense claim national security, crime and punishment, claim police and jails. Somewhere the right balance must be struck, but acting like we can replace every bridge in the country right now is not a plausible notion. Does the infrastructure need fixing? Of course. Can you prevent all possible accidents by spending money and having the latest designs? NO! I'm reminded of the Bible passage where Jesus asked rhetorically "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them,.(A bible times news story). Do you think that they were worse sinners(or more guilty) than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
My personal interpratation being that Accidents happen, and take care of your own personal and spiritual situation because you don't know the when's and the why's of future events.
Posts: 38 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by TwinStarRocket: For those interested, more info on the Minneapolis Stone Arch Bridge,...and will probably outlast its (I-35) replacement.
Lest we forget, Mr. TwinStar, the 1965 floods did a pretty good job on Stone Arch.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Highway bridges are inspected every other year, at a minimum. Even the small low-traffic-volume bridges that we have on the Santa Fe National Forest are inspected every other year. What happened to the people on the bridge is terrible, but I also worry about the people who inspected the bridge last time.
It is quite likely that witnesses heard "explosions." When a structure like that fails, the sounds of the pieces coming apart can seem to be explosions.
This is a problem of money. You can solve problems by throwing money at them, the Defense Department does it all the time. It is way past time for us to increase taxes to pay for the infrastructure problems that we have in this country. We have roads and bridges and airports and railroads and ocean ports that we have to fix. You can't have an economy and society like ours without transportation.
-------------------- Kiernan Posts: 155 | From: Santa Fe, New Mexico | Registered: Apr 2005
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I'm feeling a bit of relief.....my wife and I between us have several old friends living in the Twin Cities. They also have responded that they are well.
One friend has a daughter who is an ER nurse at what I presume is the University of Minnesota Hospital....close enough that those who could walk away from it walked in for medical care. Another friend knows someone who was driving on one of the sections that fell flat for only 30-40 feet and walked away unhurt.
Simply devestating to watch the pictures and realize that many were not so fortunate/
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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In 1993, Congress added 4.25 cents onto the gas tax and dumped every bit of that into their general fund. What Congress could do is take that tax money and put it back into transportation, like 2.25 cents for bridge repair and 2 cents for passenger rail.
I'm writing my Congress Critters.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
The following article in Trains Newswire might be of interest regarding the destroyed rail cars.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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the ny papers and tv are in the can it happen here modes with pictures of the blooklyn bridge. as in past discussions about the hudson river tunnels and bostons big dig odds are the brooklyn bridge will be standing far longer then some of todays modern marvels.
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Minnesota's Governor Pawlenty has vetoed most transportation infrastructure funding bills passed by the legislature, because of his no-new-taxes pledge. Even this year's 5 cent increase in the gas tax, which hasn't increased in over a decade, was vetoed. As a result, many schedules for replacement and maintenance have been been lengthened due to lack of funding.
He appointed his Lt. Governor Molnau to double as Transportation Commissioner. She was an infamous anti-rail legislator, who called the Minneapolis Hiawatha Light Rail line the "train to nowhere", and still opposes all rail projects.
Previous Gov. Jesse Ventura (a rail advocate) had a very qualified full time Transportation Commissioner, who strongly supported new rail projects and accelerated bridge replacement, and opposed reductions in staff and outsourcing of inspections.
Republican Pawlenty won both times with vote percentages in the 40's due to third party candidates running. His budget cuts have resulted in many lawn signs going up in the Twin City area that say "Willing to Pay for a Better Minnesota".
Gov. Pawlenty reversed his original opposition to the Northstar Commuter Rail Line (on the Empire Builder route to St. Cloud), which primarily will serve a heavily Republican district and is very popular with gridlock-weary voters he needs.
This is not to say the tragedy that just occurred is the direct result of political policy. But like we may feel about Amtrak, it is cheaper to invest in transportation now than to let the situation get so bad that we spend even more money to get out of a high profile crisis. The same politicians who saved our hard earned money from wasteful government spending will now show us they can demonstrate leadership by spending even more money in reaction to an event that maybe could have been avoided. It makes one long for the days when politics had visionaries like Jesse "the Bod" Ventura.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Well Tanner, I certainly support freedom of the press as necessary in a democracy. BUT it seems to me that whenever there is a crisis the media grab on like a *** with a bone and won'tlet go. They go on ad nauseum with the same pictures and facts which in some cases are few. Then they seem to go into their would, could, should, what if, and "we have heard from our sources unconfirmed reports that..." modes. There must be a better way.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Addenda, Regardless of political party we hear "the white house, the pentagon etc says" " we have the situation uner advisement etc." I think DC must be the only city where the buildings talk to each other.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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Disappointed Twinstar that you would stoop to such political invective. This accident had absolutely nothing to do with the Governor's political policies whether they are right or wrong and it is a cheap shot and cheap political point scoring to try to assign blame to him or his appointees,I'm not surprised, but discouraged that leaders or members of any party would try to turn these heart-wrenching images into votes. The inspections showed the same thing when Governor Ventura was in office for heaven sake. This bridge would not have been replaced whoever was in the Governor's office from whatever party, or if they had a gas tax of five dollars. It was not recommended to be replaced for at least 20 more years. Besides just being an accident, if any failure occurred it was in the inability of bridge inspectors to differentiate and bring attention to serious safety concerns apart from that of regular issues that need to be addressed but don't have a safety component. These inspections and their recommendations are carried out outside the political process by bridge engineers. The bridge was inspected more than often enough, so there is something wrong in the process, either the inspection must be conducted in a new way in order to catch a safety issue and highlight it, or if the inspections themselves are fine, to find new words and form to properly describe an actual structural safety issue in lay-mans terms apart from ratings that also include factors like "we need a new lane, signs, resurfacing, paint or guardrails", If a bridge report showed a potential for actual collapse, it should actually use those terms in any report to the Governor, not minutia like "fatigue cracking not likely in deck truss, but stress in the structure ya da ya da ya da" It sounds like the last time they had a chance to avoid the accident was that MNDOT was given an option to add some steel reinforcement plates earlier this year or late last and decided instead to proceed with more detailed inspections to determine where to put them. Obviously this was an grave error. But this all has nothing to do with funding or politics. If somebody would have told the Governor or any governor that the bridge was unsafe, he would have shut it down in about five minutes. In order for a Governor to listen to advice like that, you cannot "cry wolf" every week and claim that 50% of the state's or countries bridges are in trouble and need huge amounts of spending to fix them. If you do that, it will just sound like an agency trying to get their share of the budget, which is what they all do every year. And properly, each agency makes the best case for their projects and funding, then compromises are made in order to make it fit. But this bridge was different, it needed to be fixed quickly or shut down It sounds to me like this could have been fixed very cheaply with a little steel reinforcement, but as is typical for Transportation people, they decide to "study" it some more and wait for the perfect all encompassing insanely expensive solution how ever many years or decades in the future to come about, instead of just providing a quick solution to actually fix the problem in the short term.
Incidentally, I was in Minneapolis last evening and it went pretty well driving wise coming from 35W North, I first took 280 to University and got something to eat in Dinkytown at the "Loring Pasta Bar. http://www.loringpastabar.com Very cool place!! totally awesome architecture and atmosphere.Probably one of the most interesting places in the Twin Cities to eat. The pictures don't do it justice. I thought the food was good, although I'm not a real connoisseur and don't drink wine or any alcohol so I can't give detailed recommendations on that score. Then I went over and took the Hennepin avenue bridge downtown and saw a great band. Coming back home I took the recommended route of I-94 to 280 back to 35W North. They blocked off certain exits and made the traffic lights stay green to turn 280 into a freeway, which worked well. I think drivers in the Twin cities will primarily lose a little time, but little else due to the bridge collapse if they were not directly affected by the tragedy. Too bad we don't have the central corridor light-rail up and running, That would have helped mitigate the traffic problems. Respectfully
Posts: 38 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by train lady: Well Tanner, I certainly support freedom of the press as necessary in a democracy. BUT it seems to me that whenever there is a crisis the media grab on like a *** with a bone and won'tlet go. They go on ad nauseum with the same pictures and facts which in some cases are few. Then they seem to go into their would, could, should, what if, and "we have heard from our sources unconfirmed reports that..." modes. There must be a better way.
There is a better way. However, the "media" MUST quit hiring journalists and start hiring reporters. Instead of trying to be the National Enquirer or Entertainment Tonight, the media should start reporting the news and have some intelligent people on the payroll. Right now, the "media" employees are way more interested in producing an entertainment program, instead of a news program. {Please note: Fox was NOT excluded!}
We get what we expect from our "media". Fortunately, we all have access to the internet!
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Mr. Smith, I find that 'journalist" is the term those within the profession desire to be called.
I've been called it before, but I do prefer CPA to "Tax Man' or 'Bookkeeper'.
I believe your term entertainer regretably all too often is "right on'. Would O'Reilly and Hannity have their ratings if they treated their hostages with a little decency and respect?
I further understand that in some demographic groups, infotainment shows such as Jon Stewart and "the News" outrate the likes of Katie, Brian, and Chuck.
Further, I'm starting to learn that the world at large's day does not stop when network evening news comes on (I don't think Fox Brodcast even offers it) as has mine for the past 40 or so years.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Norman: If the main stream media employed real reporters, we would have no need for Hannity or O'Reilly. They would not have anything to talk about.
Journalism has devolved into the dumbest profession on this planet. They do not need common sense, logic, analytical abilities or even facts. All they need is emotional impact.
A modern-day journalist would have to be shown which end of the shovel to use. The warnings you see on all ladders were put there because journalists couldn't figure out how to safely use one.
And the major networks still have their evening news shows??? Who knew...
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Mike while I agree with you on the entertainment notion I must say I don't find the internet any better. I read as many different explanations of the new "free drinks" bit on the net as I have heard on TV. It gets to the point where it is hard to know what is for real. Then you add the politicians slants and it gets to "whatever"
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I've thus far refrained from getting into this topic because it really opens up a can of worms for me. I see the collapse as merely one of many symptoms of an ailing nation that seems more interested in cosmetic problems than structural ones.
I've been hearing for 20 years that America's bridges were deteriorating. But it was always back-page news. It doesn't get anyone's attention until a bridge actually falls down.
Instead politicians and reporters go into ecstacies over O.J, Elian, Monica, Princess Diana, Gary Condit, Terry Schiavo, Paris, Brittany, etc. all while bridges are rusting and levees are eroding. For years there were warnings that New Orleans couldn't withstand a major hurricane, but nobody who could do anything about it paid any attention. And I notice the public went right along for the ride.
What is Gary Hart best known for? Monkey business. Hardly anyone even knows, much less cares, that he and Warren Rudman headed a commission that warned of potential terrorist attacks two years before 9/11. About that same time security people at the World Trade Center even predicted that the next attack on that landmark would probably be by air, yet nobody paid attention.
We as a nation just aren't focusing on things that matter. We boast about how great America is, while we let it crumble around us. Only when something crumbles spectacularly enough to make TV news does anyone notice. Then we vow "never again," for awhile anyway, then we go back to fussing over Paris, Brittany, etc.
At this rate our favorite subject, Amtrak, won't get noticed until the NEC slides onto the sea.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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After a successful email and telephone campaign accomplishes my stated objective, I will then make the time to schedule an appointment for that physical exam I've been putting off and maybe even have the brakes checked on my vehicle.
And that's the way we do it I'm afraid.
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Thank you for saying what I have been muttering for many a long year. We are watching the decline and fall of the American empire. I couldn't care less about the poor stars and athlete who make millions and have drug problems. I care that we always find the money to help other nations, fight wars,give all sorts of services to illegals but never have enough to fix our infrastructure, fund a decent rail system, help our own citizens ( and legal immigrants). Oh yes Congress seems to find the funds for their own perks and pet projects like the bridge to no where in Alaska. Think of what some of that misused money could do if it were used for Amtrak!! Now I shall get off my soap box.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Posted by Mike Smith: "In other words, Mr. Toy, you are stating that the USA is following the same path that Rome followed in it's latter days."
And on the cutting edge of our march down that path is our passenger rail system.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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After reviewing this material appearing in Today's New York 'Mini' Times (today they adopted the 12" width format of most other papers), I am lead to wonder to what extent it is possible to estimate the load on a highway bridge at any given time?
Railroads are not confronted with this problem, as the weight of any train is known. Railroads can and do restrict the weight of trains on bridges. Case in point is the Kate Shelly Bridge in Central Iowa where even though double tracked, only one train may be on the bridge at any time.
Of course, for those around here who contend that UP is letting their property "go to rack and ruin', it should be noted September TRAINS has an article stating how this bridger is being rebuilt so that two trains can be accomodated simultaneously.
posted
well Zephyr, just make sure you are not under it when it does.I'd hate to lose a valuable member of the forum.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Since I am clueless to the structuring of bridges could one of our civil engineers answer a question? What other factors other than weight can cause a collapse? Would there be a situation where weight had nothing to do with the problem? On crossing the Mississippi on the Zephyr I am always a little uneasy,especially when I look down and see nothing but water.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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You are asking a question that would take a long time to give a good answer to. However, for your part 2 worry: Relax. First there is nothing that gets the care and concern on a good railroad line line a major bridge, even if it looks bad. Second, a passenger train is far lighter both per axle and in total than a freight train, so if the freight train before made it across, you will too.
George
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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