I haven't read it (to access, my computer with XP OS must be set for "cookies enabled" and apparently it is not), but reportedly the entire Amtrak/GL operation is in "deep trouble'.
Oh course it is still "happy talk' over at Grand Luxe's site.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Just scanned it briefly. Essentially they have eliminated another scheduled trip behind the California Zephyr and made deeper cuts to the service planned on the Southwest Chief and Silver Meteor. A corporate spokesperson was quoted as saying something to the effect that logic would suggest that there would be a demand for service to Florida in December but that the demand had not materialized.
Passengers who had booked travel on the now canceled GrandLuxe trips are being offered a full refund OR twice the dollar value of their canceled trip towards a GrandLuxe rail voyage in 2008.
I think that what this suggests is that there is a market for the level of first class service such as what Amtrak provides (the 'Red Roof Inn' of first class rail travel) on a daily basis but there is not a market on regularly scheduled passenger trains for the super luxurious accomodations and pampering (the 'Ritz-Carlton' or 'Princess Cruises' of rail travel) that GrandLuxe offers.
There is a niche for GrandLuxe but it's in the market for folks looking to be pampered while taking an organized land cruise with several other attractions included. Perhaps they could revisit hooking their cars to the Cardinal but including a two night stopover at the Greenbrier as part of the package.
I just hope that the apparant failure of this experiment doesn't prompt the anti-Amtrak forces to renew their attack on what level of first-class service Amtrak does offer.
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I think you are right, David, people who want to spend all that on a trip will take a real cruise unless the land cruise offers all the amenities, including excursions and land hotels.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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I guess, Mr. Presley, I could get to the material if I were to make an adjustment to Tools/Internet Options/Privacy/ IE default settings. However TRAINS shows up once a month as it has since 1958, and I guess I'll "read all about it" come December.
Not sure it it will be worth planning my Sunday Nov 4 to include observing the passing of #6(2) as that was to have been the inaugural AMLUXE run.
I learned at another site that a sixteen car train (nine AM seven GL) will "foul' an interchange at Salt Lake City that suffice to say UP finds quite unacceptable. Sometimes I have to wonder why all this kind of stuff crops up at the eleventh hour rather than in early feasability planning stages.
But we cannot escape the fact that every past luxoservice operated in conjunction with scheduled Amtrak trains has flopped. Also, the question must be raised just how successful has the separately operated (Amtrak locomotives and Operating Employees) AOE/GL has really been (AOE was a privately held corporation and did not publicly disclose its Financial Statements; new owner Colorado Railcar is an LLC - again no public disclosure).
There is much to suggest that Mr. Presley's thoughts are largely "on mark".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I was disappointed when Grand Luxe cancelled my L.A. to Chicago trip in late December. I did not accept their offer of a credit for a future trip, as (like Mr. Norman) I am suspicious that the Grand Luxe/Amtrak partnership will succeed. I wonder if the remaining trips scheduled to start next month will in fact operate as promised.
Posts: 524 | From: Toronto Ont. Canada | Registered: Mar 2001
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I don't think I'm a-typical. I needed service from A to B, along the line. A to B is shorter than End to End.
ORIGINALLY: On one routing (5/6), I'd have to backhaul from both the origin and destination to obtain my needed destinations. On another routing (3/4), I'd have to backhaul at my origin.
ONLY RECENTLY: GL put a "call your travel agent" option for "shorts on the line." Calling them, one of my stops on 5/6 is still not there.
CONCLUSION: GL still has not accepted that their role in a GL/Amtrak partnership is to provide transportation at a high end, not a port, into port cruise.
I hope that makes sense.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doesn't work for me, since I'm not a TRAINS subscriber; I went to the GLR website. Seems like my Dec 20 trip is safe. Can you tell me different?
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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The article mentioned three specific departure dates in each direction (all in November) remaining for the California Zephyr.
(1st eastbound from Emeryville Nov 2, 1st westbound from Chicago Nov 5 Mr. Norman.....in case there is a pooch taking you for a walk down by the tracks at train time on either 11/4 or 11/5)
Jerome, the article made no mention of departure dates on the Silver Meteor which, because you live in Richmond, VA, I assume is the train you're planning to travel on. I'd give GrandLuxe a call to be certain BUT I think you would have heard from them by now if your trip was off.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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According to the Grand Luxe website there are still three departures from L.A. to Chicago. Dec, 3,8, and 13, and from Chicago Dec 1,6 and 11.
One other thing, I just received an e-mail from Amtrak announcing their newest partnership with Grand Luxe, and that they will give me 2000 AGR points for booking a Grand Luxe Express trip, and in addition double points if I book certain trips before April 30. How very strange for a service that is facing so many cancellations.
Posts: 524 | From: Toronto Ont. Canada | Registered: Mar 2001
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The trips touted in the AGR email seem to be GrandLuxe's 'regular' services and not those trips carried on the back of regular Amtrak trains.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Here is what I have learned reqarding AMLUXE from various sources. According to Bob Johnston @ TRAINS Newswire, there will be a positioning trip on #5(30) DEN-EMY and then the following EMY-CHI trips during November:
#5(5)(11)(17) #6(2)(8)(14)
"That's all folks' everything else: CANX
No mention of another "positioning trip' EMY-DEN presumably on #6(20); probably just a "lick our wounds' deadhead.
Again, GL website still full of "happy talk".
Here is the GL consist being handled on the DEN-EMY #5(30)positioning move:
800768 sleeping car SANTA FE 800231 sleeping car MONTE CARLO 800740 sleeping car DENVER 800757 sleeping car MONTREAL 800310 club car SEATTLE 800308 dining car CHICAGO 800246 crew car MONTEREY
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: The trips touted in the AGR email seem to be GrandLuxe's 'regular' services and not those trips carried on the back of regular Amtrak trains.
When I re-read the e-mail it states that the AGR points will apply on the Grand Luxe Express (which I think is their regular service) and the double points on the Grand Luxe Limited (behind the Amtrak Service) from Chicago to the Bay area as well as the antebellum South service. Grand Luxe is silent about Los Angeles and Miami.
Posts: 524 | From: Toronto Ont. Canada | Registered: Mar 2001
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Thanks for the link to passenger cars, Mr. Norman. I wonder why Grade Luxe would elect to use the lounge car Seattle instead of the wonderful observation, New York? Surely the rear observation area would be a far better place to see the west than a mid train lounge.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Somehow, Mr. Palmland, I think that will simply be one of many "WHY's' that will be asked after this upcoming fiasco is confirmed as a flop.
Guess what else I learned from an Amtrak Locomotive Engineer posting at another Forum and holding an assignment on the Zephyr? #5(30) handling the DEN-EMY "positioning move" didn't even STOP in Salt Lake City. SLC passengers were bussed to/from Provo and the locomotives were fueled there by an oil tanker local delivery truck. The T&E crew changed at D&RGW Roper Yard before the train was interchanged to the WP (it's all UP; I used predecessor roads simply to clarify). This was necessitated because the Amtrak SLC station can no longer accommodate a 16 car train (3loco, 9AM, 7GL).
Sounds like the guys and gals BOTH at 60Mass and Denver really did their homework on this one!!!!
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Norman, I'm not sure where the SLC station is currently located but had a 'drive by' of the original UP terminal building this summer. Safely preserved but in the midst of massive redevelopment project downtown.
What a shame it couldn't have been saved as a station. It would have be so easy for it to remain as such and become a focal point for the city, much like Denver. If you saw the World Series, Union Station was shown in all its glory on numerous occasions as part of setting the scene for the series at Coors field in the LoDo area of Denver.
But I guess no one has ever accused Amtrak and local politicians of being far sighted. So much easier to have an AmShack and let the developers do their thing.
As to Colorado Rail Car / Grandluxe, it strikes me that they can do a good job of building cars for 'cruise trains' but haven't a clue about how to market and run a hotel on wheels. Where is the Pullman Co. when you need them. I do think there is a market for good first class service on Amtrak - a notch or two below (in amenities and price) what Grand Luxe tries to offer but a cut above most Amtrak offerings.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Has anyone observed #6(2); this is to be the first Eastward Zephyr handling Grand Luxe equipment.
Of interest, according to the website, #6(2) arrived Provo some ten MINUTES late, but departed some 65 minutes late. This is likely because the 'bustetoot' from Salt Lake City could not depart there until scheduled departure and the locomotives are being refueled at Provo.
As noted in my earlier posting, ZEPHYRLUXE will not serve the SLC station; the 17 car consist is too long to be handled there.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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1) Both UP and D&RGW stations were retained as buildings. Remember that on A-Day, UP ceased all passenger operations into SLC. From then until they sold the building, it was their office building in Salt Lake.
2) D&RGW, when it joined Amtrak, gave space in their station building to Amtrak.
3) When construction for the Winter Games got serious, trackage to both stations ceased being used. That's when Amtrak built the SLC Amshack. I can tell you it was between Christmas of 1999 and Christmas of 2001.
4) GL, from everything I've heard since this past summer, never intended to use their Dome (s) (do they still have more than one on the roster?) or the ex TWENTIETH CENTURY LIMITED observation Sandy Creek.
5) From the forum Mr Norman mentioned, I found it interesting that there was no T&E crew in the GL cars. The rear brakeman and flagman were named FRED.
6) As I've stated earlier, running on a scheduled route is not a cruise: It's transportation. I know, for a fact, folks ride short in the sleepers, not end to end. I am a living/breathing example of that. Amtrak and GL need to get their heads out from where the sun does not shine and get used to dealing with Mr Smith boarding at Lincoln Nebraska and getting off at Winnemucca, Nevada.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I just looked at the Grandluxe website today, and the only Grandluxe/Amtrak service left is on the Zephyr departing Emeryville Nov. 2,8,14 and from Chicago Nov. 5,11,17. I don't think I will trust Grandluxe again since I lost money with my deposit (due to exchange rates) so I will be most reluctant to give them money in advance should they offer a similar service in the future.
Posts: 524 | From: Toronto Ont. Canada | Registered: Mar 2001
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The SLC Amtrak station is a cold and desolate place. I flew into SLC in April 2002 and cabbed over to the train station to wait for #5's shortly after midnight (at-that-time) departure.
I was there by myself outside after dark for about 90 minutes before the lone Amtrak agent arrived and opened up around 10:30pm. In all that time I think maybe two cars and a truck trundled down the warehouse district street the station is located on. Other than that I don't think I spotted any sign of life the entire time......except for the frightening looking fellow who showed up with no luggage 10 minutes before the Amtrak agent and hung out (without speaking) on the other side of the building smoking a foul-smelling cigar. I couldn't tell if he was a fellow passenger or a mass murderer. It was like something from a Stephen King novel. Can't say the folks missing SLC on the special Amluxe trains are missing anything at all but it was an absolutely horrendous logistics oversight to not realize a Zephyr hauling that many private cars could not fit the facilities in SLC anymore.
The worst irony is that over the tops of the dark, sulking warehouses, I could see the top of the former DRG&W passenger station's inviting ediface three blocks away.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I had driven through SLC in the spring of 1992, with my then almost 3 year old son. As I recall, both the D&RGW and the UP buildings already belonged to SLC, with trackage rights retained by the UP.
UP, wanted to be a good corporate sponsor for the 2002 Winter Games, gladly gave away their trackage rights.
So, indeed, you were "out in the cold."
Suggestion for all, from Mr Pressley's hard earned wisdom: Know when stations on the line open and close. Many stations operate with one shift covering both movements of the day.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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First, there were only two P-42 units; #2 being one of such. I guess one of the three units previously observed is assigned DEN-OAK.
The LUXE consist was apparently the seven cars noted throughout this topic; no domes or obs - car names I recall were "Monterrey" and "Chicago". While it is hardly fair to judge the cleanliness or condition of any consist eighteen miles away from its destination, it just seemed to look "tired". I could recall observing and riding #26 Century or #28 Broadway and the consist just did not look as tired upon arrival in New York as did this GL. I would think that the folk are paying enough for an en route washing - and I don't they got one.
Zephyr was the "same old same old" nine cars.
Oh, and "enquiring mind wants to know"; anyone have knowledge how ZEPHYRLUXE's arrival will be handled at CUS; will it arrive on Track 19-26 (through track) or will they cut the LUXE and spot the cars at another platform?
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Well, the other shoe has dropped; I've been informed today that all the Grand Luxe trips to Florida have been cancelled for lack of interest. Even when they tried to consolidate all their prospective passengers into one Dec. 20 trip, it still wasn't enough to make a go of it.
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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I can confirm the website now only offers the 5/6 movements.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Well, so much for the GLX! I'd planned a 10 day vacation in Orlando around this train, but now I've made too many reservations and bought too many show and theme park tickets to cancel the trip, even though the raison d'etre of the trip has disappeared! Besides, I had to cancel a rail journey to Eastern Canada last summer because of shingles! This trip is too good to scratch, even if I have to take Amtrak Silver Service!
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mr. Nicholson, you are hardly likely the only person "burned' by first the GL hoopla, thence the abrupt cancelling of most of their service.
You also are likely "taking it like a man" more so than others.
Volks, this fiasco is simply the nail in the coffin for any future privatization initiatives for Sleeping and Dining services. No land based hotel operator is going to "touch it with a ten foot pole".
Even if there is no economic justification for continuing the LD's (150 people six times a week through the heart of the fastest growing region does not constitute economic justification) and only slight social justification (how do the can't drives won't flys get about?) for same, there is of course much political justification and accordingly they are "safe" so long as "things are done in Washington the way they are done". But, with the sentiment that Sleepers as well as Food & Beverage must pay their way, I cannot rule out that the LD's could become Coach only.
Amtrak in the near future could well resemble Missouri Pacific on A-Day Eve.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: But, with the sentiment that Sleepers as well as Food & Beverage must pay their way, I cannot rule out that the LD's could become Coach only.
Amtrak in the near future could well resemble Missouri Pacific on A-Day Eve.
The cynic in me feared that this would be the end result the minute we first started talking about 'privatizing' food and sleeping car services.
Remember how well the idea of having Subway provide food and beverage service on the New York - Albany trains worked out?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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The problem I see here (and I know there are myriads of others) is this Grandluxe plan was sort of like adding a 5-Star wing to a Howard Johnsons. Same address, same view, same delays, same ungodly arrival and departure times etc. There just are not enough 5-Star ammenities possible to warrant the huge price differential. What might actually work is to raise Amtraks 1-Star system to a 3-Star system or to make Sleepers 2 classes ----- Standard and Premium. Each with it's own level of amenities and pricing.
Posts: 460 | From: North Central CT | Registered: May 2004
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Incidentially, Wyndham is the high end brand of Cendant - the owners of the HoJo brand.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Concerning the apparent demise of the Grand Luxe/AMTRAK "partnership," I don't want to say "I told you so," but I told you so..........!!!
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr Rader has his head where the sun does not shine.
Waaay back in August, he wanted his passengers to cruise from end to end. Folks, that worked in the days of the Super Chief, City of Los Angeles, and City of San Francisco. There were multiple trains on multiple routes.
These days, not every LD route even has daily service (hello, 1/2). We need and want to board/get off at the RIGHT station for us, not the endpoints of the route.
The business plan was faulty. Over and above that, the standard of maintenance from the AOE days seems to be slipping. I don't buy the argument that these cars are older. Look at the PV world, look at the executive fleet world in the railroad business. UP Selma is 91 years old; 104 North Platte 83. They are in great shape.
Good shops, proper care, and a mechanical force which can "get it done" when a car goes bad-order. If Mr Rader needs advice, he might want to pick the minds of Bill Kratville and Arthur Dubin.
posted
As a frequent western LD rider, I have never ever rode end-to-end. I seem to recall some Amtrak figures lately that indicated very few people do.
Carrying DeeCT's great analogy further, you could say the 5 star wing of Howard Johnson's only allows check-in and check-out at one specific time. During all other hours the doors will be locked.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Well, in trying to get alternate transportation from Orlando on Dec. 21, I find Amtrak's only available sleeping car accomodation is a deluxe sleeper for (gulp), $900! That's more than GL's ticket was (minus $200 refund for canceling original trip). Not wishing to pay Ritz-Carlton rate for Red Roof accomodations, and staying with my vow never to travel Amtrak LD overnight again, I bit the bullet and booked Southwast to BWI. I can use the Amtrak Regional ticket I was going to use for travel back to Richmond off the GL. In a way, this whole thing was a godsend. I'd already put the finishing touches on my trip, and would have gone stir crazy waiting!
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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While I've not sworn off overnight Amtrak trips, I generally will go overnight only when I have enough accumulated Guest Reward points (and thanks to the bonus for getting the new Chase AGR card I'm sitting on 40,000 of those now) to cash in for 'something big'. I also am not shy about flying somewhere and keep mental notes of the airports from which it's easy and cheap to each an Amtrak station.
Continuing that notion, I will rarely use my points on the Silver Service trains because I don't feel like I receive the best value for my points on those routes. I will use points on the Crescent for trips originating or ending in Atlanta but then heading west because you can really get 'point bargains' that way.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Here is how it is reported at the Amtrak website regarding the ZEPHYRLUXE Salt Lake City "skip stop".
Oh well, I guess you simply cannot say "to accomodate a special luxury train move'.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I see "on-time bus transportation" is provided for pax going east from SLC on #6. How can anything "on-time" (more unnecessary hyphens) be coordinated with an Amtrak train running on UP tracks?
And westbound, you leave 3 hours early to cover a 90 mile round trip to Provo and back to where you started. 30 mph average speed? More train ride for your buck to us foamers. Yes, every train ride is an adventure.
I vote for replacing this with a 20 mule team wagon ride to Winnemucca, except with ponies. And maybe bagpipes. An awe-inspiring sight under the moon on the salt flats.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
That's more than GL's ticket was (minus $200 refund for canceling original trip). 
