posted
Two hours late approaching Denver. GrandLuxe cars on the rear. They looked good, not tired at all, on the long hike along Track 28 in CUS to Car 832.
No idea why the delay ... Slow orders in western Nebraska, I suspect.
Diner Lite last night a welcome surprise ... Actually tasty.. Better than the indifferent "real food" on No. 8 last week.
Sleeper attendant is Isaac Heath, brother of the nonpareil Bob Heath. Almost as tall as Bob, and just as good.
Written via wireless pager from the train. Not easy to thumb the keyboard bouncing along at 79 mph.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mr. Kisor, if you are on #5(5), I observed your passing of MP 18.00 yesterday.
I do agree that a little soap and water on the LUXE equipment did help the cause, but by no means is there the spit and polish that was part of any Santa Fe train leaving Dearborn (or even for that matter METRA/BNSF passing by here).
Interesting to learn that ZEPHYRLUXE leaves from the through Track 19-28 at CUS.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
By the light of day at Denver the paint does look a tad worn, but I have seen tattier TGVs. (The train does fit the platform at Denver but the GL passengers did not disembark. Wonder why.)
Can you imagine the labor intensiveness it would take to make a train look as spiffy as the Super Chief of yore? Not in this day and age, perhaps. The proof of this pudding may be in the on-board service as well as the amenities.
Finally departed DEN at 9:38.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, my goodness. Isaac is the best. He is one of my all time favorites. I had him on the Texas Eagle and the Zephyr. Tell him the Cleveland lady said "hello." I should be back on the Zephyr soon.
Posts: 54 | From: Chagrin Falls, OH, USA | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Doesn't the 5 usually back into Denver Union Station on a dead end track? Wouldn't that put Amtrak closer to Coors Field than DUS?
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Denver Union Station HAS ALWAYS been a "back in or back out" station. As a child, I took UP 9/10, the City of Saint Louis through there several times. Mom always made sure we kids were sitting someplace during the movements at Denver!
The platform at DUS does indeed stretch from the old post office (terminal annex is the building next door to union station) out to Coors Field. During the M&E days, when I'd take 5/6, I'd take the chance to get a walk on solid ground.
Mr TSR has hit the rub of the GL operation. Mr Rader does not understand he is part of a transportation business, not a cruise business. His porters need to open the trap doors and decorate the platforms at least at the division points!
posted
Clean rail cars, or at least clean windows, is possible. I noticed that at essentially every stop of more than a few minutes VIA had their folks out there with the hoses and soap washing the windows. Made for some better pictures, that's for sure.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sadly, no amount of washing will make the Superliner Lexan windows suitable for decent photogeaphy. They all seem to be scratched with sandpaper. I am not certain but I think the VIA sleeper windows were glass. They were clean and clear leaving Toronto. Winnipeg and Jasper.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Great picture of ATSF engines. It was clear even in the latter days of railroad operated passenger service which carriers had some degree of pride in their operations.
Even as late as the mid-60's, there was a through sleeper from New York-PRR-Cincinnati-Nashville. The L&N switched that car every day to the car washing track that apparently was still in operation only for that car.
I guess they were one of the roads, even though financially not in the same league as the Santa Fe, that tried to do it right. It's the little things that make the difference. Amtrak has not learned how to do that consistently.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Great picture of ATSF engines. It was clear even in the latter days of railroad operated passenger service which carriers had some degree of pride in their operations.
I agree---Santa Fe took great pride in their operations. Southern Railway did, too.
Not surprisingly, Southern opted to continue its passenger service at the time that Amtrak was formed. It's been said that ATSF only gave up its passenger service to Amtrak in '71 at the last minute, after being told that they couldn't drop their unprofitable routes and keep the ones that were still making a small profit.
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Great picture of ATSF engines. It was clear even in the latter days of railroad operated passenger service which carriers had some degree of pride in their operations.
I agree---Santa Fe took great pride in their operations. Southern Railway did, too.
Not surprisingly, Southern opted to continue its passenger service at the time that Amtrak was formed. It's been said that ATSF only gave up its passenger service to Amtrak in '71 at the last minute, after being told that they couldn't drop their unprofitable routes and keep the ones that were still making a small profit.
Seaboard is another railroad that wasn't in a hurry to join up with Amtrak.
The kicker, as you allude to, is that the Amtrak legislation mandated that any railroad choosing not to join Amtrak in 1971 would have to maintain all of their existing passenger trains until January 1, 1975 before they could again petition for discontinuance.
Southern took advantage of a loophole by having their fully merged subsidiary, Central of Georgia, join Amtrak and thus discontinuing the 'Nancy Hanks' (Atlanta to Savannah) and CofG's section of the 'City of Miami' on April 30, 1971. It has been suggested that it was by throwing the CofG passenger trains 'under the wheels' that Southern was able to maintain the rest of their passenger operations.....and that the Southern Crescent was the only one they really wanted.
On May 1, 1971 the remaining Southern passenger trains were the 'Southern Crescent', the 'Piedmont' (a DC to Atlanta day train), the tri-weekly remnant of the 'Asheville Special' running from Asheville to a connection with the 'Piedmont' in Salisbury, NC, and a nameless one coach train between Washington and Lynchburg. This train was a remnant of the 'Birmingham Special' via Knoxville and Chattanooga.
These trains were operated well by the Southern with clean equipment, pleasant staff, and mostly on-time trains.
The parade of train-off petitions cranked up again shortly after the mandatory January 1, 1975 deadline. By June 1975 the 'Crescent' was only operating tri-weekly south of Atlanta where it had previously operated daily as far as Birmingham. The 'Lynchburg Special' trains #7 and #8 disappeared. The 'Piedmont' was discontinued south of Charlotte and rescheduled so as not to make the connection with trains #3 and #4 in Salisbury. With the connection broken the Asheville train was averaging fewer than 19 passengers per trip and it was discontinued two months later in August 1975.
The 'Piedmont' made it's final runs just after Thanksgiving in 1976.......so in just 23 months Southern had divested itself of every passenger operation save for the Crescent.....and the steam excursions but they are another story.
This was a particularly sad story for me as my first passenger train trips were aboard train #4 from Asheville to Salisbury and then on to visit an aunt in Washington, DC aboard #6, the northbound Piedmont. I developed an affinity for FP7's and dome cars all at the same time!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by tarheelman: It's been said that ATSF only gave up its passenger service to Amtrak in '71 at the last minute
Quite correct, Mr. Tarheel, Santa Fe was "on the fence" until the eleventh hour.
One of their principal concerns was their access to Chicago Union Station. They were concerned that they would be stuck with all costs, including debt service, that a tennant incurred under the controlling 1919 Agreement.
Something tells me thay took a look at the May 1, 1971 Operating Agreement, specifically to Section 4.4 appertaining Jointly Owned Terminals and thought these provisions are simply unconscionable in the railroad's favor and Amtrak would never pay them.
It turns out that Amtrak did pay them, but took immediate steps first with litigation to alleviate the burden and then simply vacating those terminals with access fees far more abusive than CUS. They of course subsequently "solved the problem" at CUS by acquiring the facility.
First to be out was Cincinnati where the entire cost of that barn was passed to Amtrak for operating six trains a week. Needless to say, that Amtrak went back there and to Kansas City as well, means that they obtained far more favorable terms from non-rail owners than were provided for within 4.4.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
After running 2-plus hours late all night, No. 5 departed RNO just 16 minutes in the hole. Can you spell S-L-O-P?
Diner Lite disappointed last night (the salmon was oaken) but was OK this morning. I'd give it a C plus.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
The 'Piedmont' made it's final runs just after Thanksgiving in 1976.......so in just 23 months Southern had divested itself of every passenger operation save for the Crescent.....and the steam excursions but they are another story.
This was a particularly sad story for me as my first passenger train trips were aboard train #4 from Asheville to Salisbury and then on to visit an aunt in Washington, DC aboard #6, the northbound Piedmont. I developed an affinity for FP7's and dome cars all at the same time! [/QB]
My first passenger train trip was aboard a Southern Railway passenger train from Greensboro to High Point in 1972. However, a friend's Dad used to take us to Southern's Pomona yard in Greensboro from time to time to watch the trains. On the passenger trains, I remember how majestic the EMD E/F locomotives looked (not to mention snazzy in their green, white, and gold paint jobs) and how clean the cars were.
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
My No. 5 arrived at Emeryville one hour 15 minutes EARLY despite running for hundreds of miles 2 hours late. There's more slop in its schedule than in Manute Bol's basketball shorts.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hi Tarheelman, (and apologies to Henry for hijacking your thread with tales of another #5)
Thanks for posting your own Southern passenger memories. Don't you love the restoration work on the stations in High Point and Greensboro? Hamlet is pretty incredible too though that was not originally a Southern depot.
I absolutely was thrilled by the way the FP7's looked in their CLEAN black and white attire. The only thing better was catching a glimpse of the lovely green and gold southbound 'Crescent' when the northbound 'Piedmont' would meet it in Northern Virginia.
After the 'Piedmont' was discontinued south of Charlotte and trains #3 & #4 went away, my father would still drive my mother and I to Salisbury to catch #6 to Washington. With the new schedule the 'Piedmont' would actually arrive at Union Station just minutes before the 'Crescent' departed......gave me a few more minutes to admire those green and gold E8's.
In retrospect now, the thing which I liked most about Southern's passenger services in the 1970's though is that I, just barely a teen-ager at the time, had the opportunity to experience pre-Amtrak passenger railroading. Something that I could not have done had I been growing up in most other areas of the country at that time.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Contrary to above, Denver Union Station has NOT always been a "back-in" station. I can't remember when it was reconfigured (1960's?? 1970's??) but before that date most, if not all tracks went through. Some D&RGW, AT&SF and C&S trains departed to the southwest; UP, CB&Q, and the remainder of D&RGW and C&S trains departed to the northeast. The grand exception to all this was #17/18, the California Zephyr. Westbound it was wyed through the car wash and then backed into DUS. Eastbound it was wyed AFTER the station stop and again through the car wash.
A set of freight-only tracks paralleled the passenger tracks to the north of the station. Those tracks remain and now carry all through freight operations, including lots and lots of coal destined for Texas and the southeast.
Posts: 87 | From: Snowmass, CO USA | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ironically, even though as Mr. Gardner notes, trains heading South to Colorado Springs on the C&S and ATSF (D&RGW trackage rights as well) made Denver a run through station, it was formally named the Denver Union Terminal; DUT was a recognized term as well. Terminal generally implies a stub end facility.
Incidentially, the Denver Zephyr "ran in" to facilitate ready interchange of its Colorado Springs cars.
Lastly, lest anyone think that either Mr. Gardner or myself forgot about the Rock Island, we didn't. RI split its Rocky Mountain Rocket at Limon CO into Denver and Colorado Springs sections. Their access to Denver was over UP trackage rights (route of the Portland Rose).
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I worked with a youth group in Denver in the mid-1980's. At that time the tracks still ran through Denver Union Station but the California Zephyr (both #5 and #6) would back in to the station.
DUS is now a stub-end station as the tracks leaving the station southward towards Colorado Springs and Pueblo came up in the mid-to-late 90's for new development in the now trendy LODO area.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Since you were on the partner road of the UP, the CMStP&P, do you know when UP made their decision? I've been told it was also very late along... perhaps even into April of 1971.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not aware of any "eleventh hour' decision by UP to join Amtrak. Since neither "City" was included in the "Basic System", the UP envisioned a "sign up and we're out" scenario.
While the advice of an entry level Internal Auditor was not exactly sought on the matter, the decision on my MILW to sign up was made quite expediently. With loss of the UP interchange, Iowa Division traffic would have been rather a trickle.
As was lest we forget, the City of Savanna continued to run for about two months after A-Day, as did the Quincy Zephyr and the Clinton 400. This was owing to some Illinois judge who was saying "I'm the law'.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
If my memory serves me conrrectly, the only Amtrak passenger train on UP at Day One was the CZ between Denver and Ogden. For the first severla months, maybe a lot longer it the power ran around it and it ran backwards between Cheyanne and Denver. This train was my ride home / acquainted with the US when returning from that great Southeast Asian vacation land in late 1971.
I think UP was in there at all bacause D&RGW decided not to join. Thought about taking the D&RGW train out of Ogden instead of staying on the CZ, but really did not want to take the additional day, and I had near one months pay plus travel money in cash on my body.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Quite correct, Mr. Harris, however that the UP had any passenger trains on A-Day was brought about only by the Rio Grande's eleventh hour decision to stay out and run their own train.
Oh and my reunion with "The World" after my 12 month all expenses paid "tour" ended during July 1968 was to ride The Cascade Fairfield to Oakland, Zephyr Oakland to Sacramento, and the "City" Sacramento to Ogden and my next station at Hill AFB. I took three weeks leave immediately after reporting.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Hi Tarheelman, (and apologies to Henry for hijacking your thread with tales of another #5)
Thanks for posting your own Southern passenger memories. Don't you love the restoration work on the stations in High Point and Greensboro? Hamlet is pretty incredible too though that was not originally a Southern depot.
David, the restoration work on the Greensboro and High Point stations indeed was nicely done. They are stations that the residents of these two cities can be proud of---each one represents its city well.
In the Greensboro station, I especially like the way that the large map of Southern's network circa 1927 was preserved and is clearly visible as you walk toward the hallway that leads to the platforms. It's a nice tribute to a well-run railroad from the past.
I haven't seen the Hamlet station in person, but I've seen pictures of it. It looks terrific in the pictures---I'm sure it's even more impressive in person.
Another nicely restored station is the one in Burlington that used to be the shops for the N.C.R.R. One of these days, I'm going to stop by there and visit the museum that the N.C.R.R. maintains inside this station. I hear that it's really interesting.
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
1) The FP-45s had already been renumbered (or else an F-45 was on point for that other train).
2) The looks like a Mercury or a Plymouth adjacent to the sleeper. I never knew automobiles were allowed at that end of the LAUPT platform level.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
1) The FP-45s had already been renumbered (or else an F-45 was on point for that other train).
2) The looks like a Mercury or a Plymouth adjacent to the sleeper. I never knew automobiles were allowed at that end of the LAUPT platform level.
Not sure what the significance of "already been renumbered" means. 5492 was renumbered in 1970. Used to be 102. According to the photo caption it's the power and tail of the last Santa Fe Super Chief. Here's the link to full caption. What bugs me is why is the power not coupled to the head of the train and on the other track? And if this power used the "escape" tracks, why would the tail of the train be facing us? Should be the front of the train and be a baggage car and then it would be behind the escape switch not past it. And if the train is getting ready for departure (which makes sense with the sleeper on the rear facing us) why would they spot the power all the way to the rear on the adjacent track? So there's something not right with the photo's caption.
I've seen photos with vehicles near the platform before. I'm pretty sure they aren't passengers cars, but could be the mechanical departments means of travel to spiffy up an already spiffy train. In modern days I've seen police cars parked at the end of tracks at LAUPT.
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Southwest Chief: What bugs me is why is the power not coupled to the head of the train and on the other track? And if this power used the "escape" tracks, why would the tail of the train be facing us? Should be the front of the train and be a baggage car and then it would be behind the escape switch not past it. And if the train is getting ready for departure (which makes sense with the sleeper on the rear facing us) why would they spot the power all the way to the rear on the adjacent track? So there's something not right with the photo's caption.
One theory is that the "power" consisted of two engines, back to back (and we only see the one formerly squashed between baggage and lead engine), and the train was backed into the station. Then, for whatever reason, the power was taken off the front and parked in the next platform.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had not realized the FP-45s were renumbered that early. I thought that happened after A-Day.
That photo was taken a month before A-Day (March 30, 2001). It's a morning shot by the sun angles. Looking at google maps airphoto of LAUPT, the switch for the escape track is several carlengths north. We are looking at 5942 on Track 10, and whatever train is spotted on Track 11.
Thinking about it, as I recall 23/24 (the ex-Grand Canyon) did not get taken off until A-Day, so this might be her getting ready to go.
Another possibility, though these cars are too clean, really, for arrival, is that 5942 leads the El Capitan section of 17/18 on arrival into LAUPT, and the Pullman we see is the lead of the Super Chief section.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
If there are no objections I would like to get back to the original thread and ask Henry "where are you now?" . We left you in Emoryville with no notice of what comes/came next. Are you going to send more reports as you return to Chicago?
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ms. Train Lady INDEED has a point; I think all participants here, myself included, that have addressed subjects at this topic other than Mr. Kisor's journey on #5(5), owe the gentleman a sincere apology for hijacking his topic.
Mr. Kisor, allow mine to be so noted.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Ms. Train Lady INDEED has a point; I think all participants here, myself included, that have addressed subjects at this topic other than Mr. Kisor's journey on #5(5), owe the gentleman a siincere apology for hijacking his topic.
posted
I really like this "enroute" type of trip report. Too bad we all don't have the technology to report on our trips as we experience them. When I get off the last train on any trip I take, I usually hang around and watch the train leave, feeling a kind of sadness that I'm not still on it. "After the fact" trip reports are reporting on an adventure that is over.
Yes, Mr. Kisor, where are you now, and where are you going next, and what kind of people did you meet, and are you on time, and did your toilets function?
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Guilty as charged. I'll try to remember to open a new thread the next time I'm inclined to go off on a tangent.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hopefully Henry will read this and we will soon have the answers to all your questions. I do agree with you TSR, these enroute reports are great and Henry yours are excellent.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
First, this thread was not the victim of a hijacking -- it was a casualty of a drive-by shooting. :-)
I have returned, as General MacArthur said so grandly.
'Twas a good trip. Full report is on my blog. Highlights:
The schedule padding is amusing. (Two hours late out of Salt Lake City and the train arrives at Emeryville an hour EARLY?)
Diner Lite not bad the first night, rather lousy the second.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I should have added that I was in wireless country about 3/4 of the way. Exceptions were in the canyons of Utah and Colorado and the Nowheresvilles Iowa and Illinois. Most sizable towns had wireless. Makes a good way to keep in touch with the world outside, and to consult Amtrak's site to see how far behind the train really was.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
