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Does anyone know the highest elevation reached on the route from Chicago to Seattle? My son has an inner ear problem and can't fly, but I am hoping he can take the train.
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I believe Marias Pass in northwestern Montana, at 5,218 feet, is the highest elevation on the Builder route. I've been over that pass in the Builder a dozen times and have never needed to resort to the Valsalva maneuver, nor have I ever felt pressure in the ears. The pressure builds up very gradually along the climb to the pass. Perhaps this would be suitable for your son.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Older aircraft were pressurised to an equivalent altitude of around 7-10,000ft depending on aircraft if I remember correctly. Newer aircraft are better and have a lower equivalent altitude.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I think it may be higher in the Cascades. I remember a short period when a friend and I both flt pressure in that area. Perhaps the best thing would be to check with Amtrak.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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I just checked the Empire Builder route guide on Trainweb. It says the Cascade Tunnel is at 4,061 feet and that Marias Pass at 5,216 feet is the highest point on the journey.
5218 feet? 5216 feet? 5211 feet? Maybe it depends on how tall the surveyor is . . .
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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You are right, Henry. But our problem wasn;t in the tunnel. I have a vague impression that it was a heavilly forested area and we were going up rather quickly. Why all the ear discomfort I don't know. Is it possible there is a higher area other than the tunnel? I do know that was the only place that bothered us on the entire trip
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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It is not so much the total change of elevation that gets you, but how fast. If it is very slow, the normal muscular movements will relieve the pressure under all but the worst of ear conditions. I found some information on the line, and here it is:
Empire Builder Route
Station elevations are from www.gngoat.org/through_your_car_window.htm which provides a 1953 Great Northern Railroad publication. Grades and crest elevations are from the profiles given in the BNSF Employee timetables which have 200 feet vertical by 2 mile horizontal grids, so you can take the elevations as approximate, but for purposes of what your ears feel these should be sufficiently accurate.
This little analysis just runs from Minneapolis west, as east of there the elevation changes would likely be insignificant, and I don’t have any handy information on the ex-Milwaukee line profiles at hand.
At Minneapolis, the elevation is 817 feet. From there the line climbs slowly with no grades over about 0.5% to a high point of about 1420 foot elevation 180 miles west of Minneapolis. It then drops, also slowly back to an elevation of 907 feet at Fargo ND. After Fargo, the line again climbs relatively slowly over the next 90 miles to an elevation of about 1450 feet. It stays at between 1450 feet and 1650 feet elevation the rest of the way to Minot, which is at 1560 feet elevation. After Minot, it climbs at about an 0.60% grade for the next 30 miles to an elevation of about 2250 feet. It stays between 2100 feet and 2400 feet for the next 70 miles, then drops at between 0.60% and 0.65% over 25 miles to 1861 feet elevation at Williston MT. From there it is near level with very light grades up and down with no changes over about 50 feet but gradually climbing until reaching an elevation of 2095 feet at Glasgow MT. Between Glasgow and Havre, about 150 miles, the line climbs gradually to an elevation of 2486 feet.
West of Havre is where the climbing starts. About 36 miles west of Havre the line goes about 3000 feet elevation for the first time and it will stay above 3000 feet for the next 280 miles. BNSF calls this 250 mile piece of railroad, from Pacific Junction, 4 miles west of Havre to Whitefish MT, the Hi-Line Subdivision. It is appropriately named.
The serious climbing does not start immediately. A crest at about 3500 feet elevation is reached 50 miles west of Havre and then the line descends a few hundred feet, staying between 3100 feet and 3400 feet for the next about 70 miles.
The line again achieves 3500 feet a few miles east of Cut Bank MT, which is at elevation 3721 feet and then 4000 feet 12 miles west of Cut Bank. The line climbs another 1000 feet over the next 30 miles, and then drops to an elevation of about 4806 feet at Glacier Park Station. From there the climb to Marias Pass begins, climbing to just over 5200 feet on grades of up to 1.3% over the next 13 miles. Marias Pass, as others have said is the highest point on the route.
From the pass the line drops at grades of 1.0% to 1.8% over the next 18 miles to Essex MT, which is at an elevation of about 3850 feet. This is the second steepest grade on the line and the first really steep (for a railroad) grade encountered. Therefore this grade might result in some ear pain. However the rate of change would still be much slower than you would experience in an airplane or in a car.
The line continues downgrade at rates of 0.80% or less from Essex to Whitefish, 46 miles further and at elevation 3040 feet. (We are scaring 3000 feet elevation here, but do not drop below it.) From here the climbing starts again, but mostly at a rate of 0.25% with a little at 1.00% up to the east portal of the Flathead Tunnel. The cross section of this tunnel is quite generous, but there might be a pressure pulse associated with the tunnel, as the speed at 50 mph is considerably higher than that allowed in the somewhat smaller cross section Cascade Tunnel. The east portal is at elevation of about 3650 feet. This is the second longest tunnel on the route, and I think also the second longest railroad tunnel in the US. 7.01 miles. The east portal is the high end. Downgrade through the tunnel at 0.62%, going to 1.00% after exiting the tunnel and for the next about 24 miles, by which point you are down to an elevation of about 2100 feet. From this point to Spokane, a distance of about 170 miles, the elevation stays between 1800 and 2400 feet, with Spokane being at 1876 feet elevation.
West of Spokane, if you choose to go to Portland OR you are through with serious mountains. Out of Spokane the line climbs to an elevation of about 2350 feet in 20 miles and then drops gradually to Pasco, elevation 358 feet. Beyond Pasco the line follows the Columbia River downgrade the rest of the way to Portland, elevation 32 feet.
West of Spokane toward Seattle is a different story. Out of Spokane the line climbs to about 2450 feet elevation at a grade of up to slightly over 1.0% in 12 miles and stays at near that elevation for the next 30 miles. From there it descends gradually over the next 50 miles to an elevation of about 1300 feet. Stays near that elevation for about 40 miles, then drops at a 1.0% grade to an elevation of about 650 feet. Stays at that elevation for about 13 miles to Wenatchee, elevation 648 feet.
Between Wenatchee and Seattle the line is the aptly named Scenic Subdivision and our last shot of mountain railroading. Immediately west of Wenatchee begins the 50 mile climb into the Cascades, cresting at Cascade Tunnel, east portal elevation 2818 feet. The first 20 miles of the climb is at under 1.0%, but then the rate goes to about 1.5% and finally the last few miles at 2.2%. However speeds are relatively low. The Cascade Tunnel is 7.79 miles long and the longest railroad tunnel in the US. It is on a 1.7% grade down westbound. Speed is limited to 30 mph. After leaving the tunnel the grade goes to 2.2%, for about 10 miles to Skykomish WA, elevation 933 feet, but the speed is limited to 25 mph on this section. From Skykomish it is 50 miles to Everett, elevation 39 feet, on the shore of Puget Sound. Grades are no steeper than about 1.0% and generally under 0.5%. Between Everett and Seattle, the line follows the shore of Puget Sound and is near level.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Wow. Mr. Harris, you are such an impressive resource. I most be a true foamer since I found every word fascinating. Don't tell anyone, but I've also been known to follow passenger routes cross country in detail on Google Earth.
Another feature I like about carrying GPS with me on trains, is to be constantly informed of elevation and speed. But it doesn't get me through the tunnels like George does.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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I am astonished that no one has quoted the latest TRAINS (Dec., 2007) which has as its Map of the Month Marias Pass Snowsheds. The elevation shown for the summit is 5212.61.
Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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It's that extra .61 that will get you every time. I have watched tracks move downward as a train rolls over. It could get down to about 5212.45 or so with a train on it.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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RRChina, some of us are so broke we have to use Wikipedia to scale the heights!
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Twin Star - talk to me about GPS receivers. I was looking into getting a receiver for the car. Does one use the same type of device in the train - like a Garmin Street Pilot or the newer Nuvi version?
Why do I need this device? Because I saw one and it was so neat!
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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I don't know much about what is available, but I bought a DeLorme package at CompUSA to install on my laptop for about $100. Of course it means you have to carry a laptop to use it. It included a GPS receiver that plugs into a USB port and the software discs that include the Delorme maps/atlas that you need to view your location. The maps take up a lot of space, but you can either transfer them to your hard drive or reload from cd each use.
When I was a riding the Empire Builder eastbound through Idaho in the lounge car, I encountered a fellow traveler in the wee hours who had one of these. We watched the train wind around the lakes and mountains on his laptop screen, which somewhat compensated for the beautiful scenery we could not see at night. I decided I HAD TO HAVE THIS!
There might be some smaller screen products out there that don't require a pc to use.
You don't need the internet. All you need is the sky. To me it is fun to look ahead on the map to see where your track/train is going. Maps can get is detailed as topo or satellite photo images if you wish to purchase such. There are cheaper ones out there than what I bought.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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The street atlas version came with the DeLorme package I have. Once you register the software, you are on the DeLorme mailing list for offers on their other atlases, which include topo. I think topo may be regional. Rail lines are shown on the street version, which covers the entire US.
I am not promoting DeLorme. It is just the only product I have tried. I believe they are at the high end price of what is out there.
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I bought the GPS receiver and also ordered an ac adapter since I plan to use it on train trips and even on my upcoming trip to Hawaii where I will not have a car. Went via Amazon although I wanted to use an Amtrak partner. Amazon was the only place I found the model I wanted. Will let you know how it works out, should be delivered by Monday. Guess this is my early Xmas present.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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It should be noted that any standard hiker's GPS with downloadable capacity (or mini-SD card) for topo maps can be used on a train trip. I have a two year old Garmin GPSMAP 60CS that I used both for geocaching and air navigation (I have an airplane) -- the latter even though it does not have an aviation database. Essentially you want to know your course, speed and location, and if you can view all that on a topo map it's great for train travel. You know almost as much as the engineer does!
On my last trip on No. 5 I used the GPS while simultaneously taking pictures with my camera, so that I could accurately describe where the photos were taken.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Off topic but related, it must be fun to watch one of these GPS devices, such as the factory installed one on my auto fire up after an Auto Train journey. I can imagine the display 'bouncing around' as the GPS takes its fixes (after all it's nothing but an electronic sextant) and locates the map accordingly. But also, I guess only Amtrak auto valets get to witness that as by the time I drive off either at Lorton or Sanford, it has already fixed.
But then, my current auto has had a longer train ride than Auto Train offers - on the BNSF from Portland to wherever BNSF unloads autos for local delivery here (the salesman showed me the shipping documents) so I guess there was an occasion for even a more radical fix with its GPS.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I ordered the Delorme for my laptop. I also have a hand held device. I assume it would be difficult with the flat windows in the sleeper, but the curved upper window in the lounge would work much better.
Posts: 30 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2007
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It's not the window but the number of satellites the GPS can find through it. If you hold it up to the window the GPS usually is able to find at least three and usually five or six satellites. A sleeper window works fine. The lounge car would allow more satellites to be found, however, hence your fixes would tend to be more accurate as the train moved along.
Wouldn't it be fun if Garmin or someone else marketed a moving-map GPS with a railroad database? You could then see electronic mileposts, maybe even track warrants -- no, that's going too far!
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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I have both DeLorme's "Topo USA" and "3-D Topo Quads" for all the states through which AMTRAK passes -- I use them to produce my "railroad log" maps. While either software package can be used witH DeLorme's GPS system, based on my experience just with the software, Topo USA is not very accurate. The 3-D Topo Quads are much more accurate than Topo USA as far as locating railroad lines. if you highlight a railroad line on Topo USA, then open the same data file in 3-D Topo Quads, it is amazing how far off the route is which was based on Topo USA!!!! When I produce my maps, I always first plot the routes from Topo USA, then I refine the routes and "correct" them with 3-D Topo Quads.
The downside to using these DeLorme products is that 3-D Topo Quads are quite expensive -- I finished purchasing all the CD sets I need a few years ago, and they were selling for about $100 each at that time -- therefore the complete set covering the whole country (states through which AMTRAK passes) cost probably $5000 -- I of course purchased the various state CD-ROM sets over a period of 2 or 3 years.......
The Topo USA software also costs about $100, but that set does cover the entire country; however, as I stated above, not that accurately (and the topographic contours in Topo USA are very very inaccurate, as they are very very "generalized")
--Railroad Rich
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Regarding the GPS "fixing up" after a long journey, my experience with a TomTom (which is a purpose-built navigation system with built in GPS) is that it takes a minute or two, will fix on the location immediately, but doesn't fix on the orientation for a few seconds - the map rotates crazily for a second or two.
As for the railroad atlas, I'm not sure what Garmin offer, but with the TomTom you can add your own data to its database, be it mileposts, sidings, or whatever. The only snag with a TomTom is that it tries to "snap" to the nearest road if it's within about 100yds, and is therefore no good for rail travel!
Now, if you could set up a microwave/satellite receiver and decoder to read the data being transmitted to/from an interlocking, THAT would be fun! Not necessarily legal though.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Interesting discussion regarding GPS devices. I am on my second auto with one such factory installed.
What I "fear" as these devices become more mainstream (when I had my first during 1999, you didn't hear the likes of "Give a give a Garmin" tune of Carol of the Bells) they will become the next road hazard. I could easily foresee jurisdictions enacting laws against any use, including viewing, while a vehicle is motion (you cannot set mine unless stopped).
I welcome expanded restrictions on cell phone usage (again I have a hands free, but using it while driving still represents a distraction so I try to keep it "short and sweet") and I'm not sure how I will react should there be prohibitions on GPS devices.
But then, we are discussing the use of such aboard trains - and I don't think there are about to be any prohibitions there.
Finally, anyone know if these devices are OK or NONO aboard a flight? After all, even here many must fly in one direction of their rail joyride.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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In my experience using a GPS aboard an airliner is OK. But it should be turned off during takeoff and landing, as all electronic devices are required to be. It is unlikely that a GPS would interfere with an aircraft's navigation equipment, but it is better to be safe now than sorry afterward.
I, too, have wondered about those automotive GPSes being safe, but if the driver is sensible (I guess we can't expect them all to be) they are probably OK as well.
I took a long cab ride the other day. The cabbie had an automotive GPS mounted on the left windshield post. He would glance (not stare) at it frequently when its screen changed to tell him of an upcoming turn. I never felt that he was not paying attention to the road.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Flight tracking is already on most international flights. A video screen on the back of the seat. Doubt if u could see satellites through the small windows.
Posts: 30 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2007
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Well, when my Garmin arrives tomorrow I will test it out on the trip south to San Diego and the cruise ship. Then I will totally confuse it by trying to use it in the middle of the ocean on the way to Hawaii. Once in Honolulu I expect to use it to get around. Only problem is the AC charger was not available so I may run out of battery power before I return.
I will probably take a short train trip before the end of the year, will test it there. I really wanted it yesterday when we were on the Surfliner - I wanted to pinpoint the location of what I believe is called the BNSF Yards - I call it container city. Looks to be in East LA, Maywood-Bell area when I look at a map. I can follow the BNSF tracks on the Thomas Brothers map to Anaheim but can't figure out where it turns south to San Diego. RR Rich - you probably know this route.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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Talk about thread creep . . . the original poster wanted to know the highest point on the Builder line. And then we got into GPSes.
I will now formally, incontrovertibly, definitely, and all by myself return the thread to the original topic by pointing out something all of us GPS-heads seem to have forgotten: A good GPS receiver gives you altitude as well as latitude and longitude. Now all we need is a volunteer to ride the Builder from Chicago to Seattle with GPS in hand and a steady eye on the altitude readout.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Henry, I would gladly offer tomorrow if I could. But with SWMBO 37 weeks pregnant, it's not a good idea to be away. However, somewhere around 5200 feet seems to be the average maximum.
Sorry to veer off course again, but my feeling is that an in-car navigation system is fairly equal to your car stereo (fighting to find the right CD or station), lighting a cigarette (never tried it), arguing with the passenger, and a multitude of other things. Using a non-hands-free mobile (cell) phone ought not be a problem in the UK as it's banned but there's always some - notably taxi, coach, and truck drivers - who ignore it.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Vicki - I will researech your question more fully with my maps of the Surfliner route. I assume the BNSF yard you are referring to is south of L.A. Union Station, along the river? Is that near the AMTRAK yard? I will have to look for this yard on my maps.
The Surfliner route leaves L.A. Union Station to the north, like every other route out of L.A., then makes a very sharp right-hand south turn at Mission Tower and follows the L.A. River for a few miles, past the AMTRAK yard. At Redondo Junction, S of the AMTRAK yard, the route makes another bend to the NNE and follows a maze of various tracks through the Cities of Commerce and Industry, and eventually gets to Fullerton. Just past the Fullerton station, the Surfliners make a 90-degree bend back to the south (Metrolink to Riverside and Corona, as well as the Southwest Chief route, goes straight east from Fullerton. The line south of Fullerton goes through Anaheim, Orange, Santa Ana, Santa Fe Springs, Tustin, and many other Orange Co. suburbs and eventually ends up along the Pacific Ocean at Doheny Beach, N of San Clemente.
As I say, once I look at my maps and find where the "BNSF yard" is, I will answer your question more fully.
--Railroad Rich
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Just to take up Henry's challenge, when I rode the EB earlier this year (SEA to CHI) the maximum altitude recorded on my GPS was 5,216 feet at the Marias Pass.
I believe the quoted altitude is 5,206. (? my extra 10 ft being the distance to my upper level bedroom).
Ken C
Posts: 28 | From: Bristol England | Registered: Jan 2003
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Thanks RRRich, I knew you would know this stuff. And I do mean the area after you leave the river - many, many trucks parked, container loaders in action, etc. And I will look more closely at the Thomas guide in the Fullerton area to try to see the turn to the south. I guess, since I am getting interested in the "where am I aspects" I need to look at map sites prior to my trips.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by HopefulRailUser: Thanks RRRich, I knew you would know this stuff. And I do mean the area after you leave the river - many, many trucks parked, container loaders in action, etc. And I will look more closely at the Thomas guide in the Fullerton area to try to see the turn to the south. I guess, since I am getting interested in the "where am I aspects" I need to look at map sites prior to my trips.
Hobart Yard
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Vicki - I found Hobart Yard on my maps of the Surfliner route. Yes, it appears to be just north of Vernon & Maywood -- approximately one mile east of Redondo Junction, where the Surfliner route crosses the L.A. River and heads SSE (not NNE, as I said earlier....).
From the Hobart area, the route proceeds east and southeast through the industrial areas of Commerce and Montebello, then makes a bend to the south through Santa Fe Springs, then back to the SE through Buena Park and eventually into Fullerton, where, as I stated before, right past the Fullerton AMTRAK station, the route makes the 90-degree bend to the south and heads through Orange County, and eventually along the ocean to San Diego.
I have a video at home, which I forgot the exact title of -- something like "Santa Fe's Surf Route" or something -- I will look up the title and give it to you tomorrow. The video shows the entire route from L.A. to San Diego, and shows the OLD "San Diegan" trains as well as many freights, and there are route maps in the video at the beginning of each section, which will show exactly where the routes go, and they are discussed in the video.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Thanks Rich. I was able to follow the route on a map after your initial info. I see the BNSF tracks on the south side and the UP on the north side. I am leaving town for two weeks but will check it all out when I return.
We are taking a cruise to Hawaii. Not surprisingly I put Honolulu in my new GPS and it was unable to plot a course for me. Wants those roads. But I should be able to follow the exit from LA on the train since there are roads everywhere. If AGR doesn't cough up those bonus points that are supposed to be applied as miles I will be taking one more trip on the Surfliner before year end.
Aloha all.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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