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I've been looking for information on the demise of the Richmond, Fredericksburg, & Potomac Railroad. Since the Wikipedia article doesn't say anything about this, I thought I might find something on CSX's website. No dice---not only is there nothing on the RF&P, there's nothing on CSX history at all!
Norfolk Southern's website has a decent section on that railroad's history. Maybe I didn't look hard enough on CSX's site.....or does this company not care about its history?
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
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Well, CSX has a "Heritage Corridor" in the 500 Water Street office bldg in Jax commemorating all of the predecessor companies, so they do care...some.
What happened to the RF&P? Short story: Potomac Yard became less and less necessary as freight traffic was re-routed away from the NEC following its transfer to Amtrak in 1977. RF&P had remained independent largely due to the state of Virginia's ownership of 25% of its stock. CSX desired to consolidate it to save money. Pot Yard was very valuable for redevelopment. A deal was struck in which the state swapped its 25% of RF&P for ownership of Pot Yard. CSX consolidated RF&P, closed Pot Yard, and turned it over to the state for sale. End of story.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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To expand on Mr. Resor's report, the RF&P was actually owned by a holding company named the Richmond Washington Company. That company was owned equally by the six carriers that interchanged with the RF&P - namely B&O, PRR, SRY, C&O, SAL, and ACL as well as the noted share owned by the Commonwealth. As one can see, mergers eventually had the road owned by one carrier, cars could readily be "pre-blocked' at ACCA (the large yard opposite Amtrak's station) rendering POT as an appendage of operating property (quite valuable of course a an NOP). From there, Mr. Resor's report of the "real estate for trackage deal" moved forth, and at that time the road ceased to exist and became a CSX Subdivision.
While one would have thought RF&P would have been an early user of "run through' operations, until quite late in the game, passenger and freight, they ran their own motive power on their trains. While I'm prepared to stand corrected on this point, I believe it was only at A-Day when there was run-through passenger power.
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Mr. Norman is correct about run through power as observed from my days at RMC in the mid 60's. The lack of run through power may have been because of the cab signals in RF&P units. The ACL/SAL power may not have had these or been incompatible with RF&P signals.
Strangely I did see an abandoned ACL engine, an E6 if I recall correctly, on a siding in Ashland early one morning. Closer to the CSX era, freights often had CSX units but behind an RF&P lead unit.
While I am sure CSX would have loved to have had a yard with the capacity of Pot YD, the Conrail acquisition did help, with blocking as far north as Selkirk for Waycross. The northbound yards, Waycross, Hamlet, Rocky Mount and Acca seemed to have finally digested the change.
Given the DC real estate prices, it's hard to argue with the economics of its closure. To the extent this change forced CSX to design the service around its closure probably improved overall transit times. What is not clear is what happens as rail traffic continues to grow.
There has always been talk of a new Baltimore yard to replace the limited facilities there, but not likely to happen unless the state steps up big time as part of the growth of MARC service.
Regarding CSX information on predecessor railroads, I think it's fair to say it is not near the top of the list of priorities. However to CSX's credit (and previous Chairman Hays Watkins' interest) the B&O Transportation Museum would not exist without their support.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thanks for the replies, folks. You retired railroad employees are a real resource on this forum---I've never been able to find as much information on the RF&P by searching the web as you've given me on this thread.
It's good to know that CSX has at least acknowledged their history by setting aside some space for it in their headquarters building. However, a paragraph or two on their website for each predecessor RR (as Norfolk Southern has done) would be nice for those of us seeking information. IMO, if nothing else, this would be good PR for CSX.
Posts: 100 | From: Kernersville, NC | Registered: Oct 2007
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On the subject of run-through power: neither the ACL nor SAL, AFAIK, had cab signals, and RF&P did, so engines were always changed in both Washington and Richmond on the Florida trains. However, late in the pre-Amtrak era through SCL power did start appearing in WAS. I'm guessing a small number of SCL E-units must have been equipped with cab signals; perhaps the RF&P units were wearing out?
Freights always had an RF&P unit leading, but by the end it was typically the only RF&P unit on the train. The rest of the power was CSX.
As for yard capacity, closure of Pot Yard actually caused big problems for CSX (not so much for NS). Acca really isn't big enough to handle the work transferred from Pot Yard, and there is no yard in Baltimore that's able to replace Pot Yard either. CSX's attitude toward the difficulties, as with so many other problems, seems to be "live with it".
And to add a historical note to Mr. Norman's post, RF&P originally reached exactly those three points. Its northenmost point was Quantico, VA. It was PRR that instigated the extension to Washington, bringing in other railroads when there were objections to PRR's attempt to monopolize the Long Bridge crossing of the Potomac River. PRR had taken full control of the bridge, and the connection to the Orange and Alexandria Railroad (later Southern) over the objections of B&O. B&O tried an "end run" by constructing the Georgetown Branch (now abandoned) and surveying a route that crossed the Potomac near present-day Chain Bridge and would have reached the O&A line at Fairfax Station, VA. Needless to say, the PRR deal meant that it was never built (although the Georgetown Branch continued in operation until the early 1990s).
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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ACL had ATS (Automatic Train Stop) in effect at least into the mid 1960's. I have an ACL Waycross division ETT of 1965, and it shows 90 mph permissible "Savannah to DA" and "DA to Jesup" but only for trains 1,2, 87, 88, 91, 92. Those trains being the Florida Special, East Coast Champion, and West Coast Champion. All other passenger trains were limited to 80 mph. I would assume that the ATS extended north all the way to Richmond, but I do not have the information to prove it.
Never heard that about the Georgetown Branch. I was of the impression, but with no substantiating information that the B&O line down the east side of the Patomac River to opposite to Alexandria, VA was for the purpose of connecting to the O&A via a ferry across the Patomac at that point. Southern had a small yard in Alex east of the connection to RF&P and a line that extended further east to the Patomac waterfront that went through a small tunnel about 1/2 block long. Saw this in operation when I was in the area in 1971.
Somewhat off topic: There was another railroad with the initials O&A. It was in Alabama, the Oneonta and Attala which was a paper company set up by the L&N to build a line between those points in the early 1900's. The location is just northeast of Birmingham. It gave them a line more or less parallel to Southern's line between Attala and Birmingham, and formed part of (maybe completed) a loop line from Boyles Yard (Birmingham) Attala, Anniston, Sylacuaga, Calera where it joint the L&N main between Birmingham and Montgomery. The O&A is now abandoned along with most of the rest of the loop except the part south out of Anniston and Gadsden that connects with the remnant of the ex-SAL main out of Birmingham.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
ACL had ATS (Automatic Train Stop) in effect at least into the mid 1960's. I have an ACL Waycross division ETT of 1965, and it shows 90 mph permissible "Savannah to DA" and "DA to Jesup" but only for trains 1,2, 87, 88, 91, 92. Those trains being the Florida Special, East Coast Champion, and West Coast Champion. All other passenger trains were limited to 80 mph. I would assume that the ATS extended north all the way to Richmond, but I do not have the information to prove it.
Never heard that about the Georgetown Branch. I was of the impression, but with no substantiating information that the B&O line down the east side of the Patomac River to opposite to Alexandria, VA was for the purpose of connecting to the O&A via a ferry across the Patomac at that point. Southern had a small yard in Alex east of the connection to RF&P and a line that extended further east to the Patomac waterfront that went through a small tunnel about 1/2 block long. Saw this in operation when I was in the area in 1971.
Somewhat off topic: There was another railroad with the initials O&A. It was in Alabama, the Oneonta and Attala which was a paper company set up by the L&N to build a line between those points in the early 1900's. The location is just northeast of Birmingham. It gave them a line more or less parallel to Southern's line between Attala and Birmingham, and formed part of (maybe completed) a loop line from Boyles Yard (Birmingham) Attala, Anniston, Sylacuaga, Calera where it joint the L&N main between Birmingham and Montgomery. The O&A is now abandoned along with most of the rest of the loop except the part south out of Anniston and Gadsden that connects with the remnant of the ex-SAL main out of Birmingham.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Interesting George, but I wonder about the practical effect of ATS. I had a former ACL dispatcher tell me the Champion routinely hit 100 mph if running late and they would plan their train movements accordingly. Of course that was in the days when it was more important to stay on time than worry about the FRA.
On the subject of lines around Pot Yd, the Washington and Old Dominion was a wonderfully bucolic line that meandered from the yard out to Loudon county. I would have loved to see that in operation, but only saw remnants and now the route is mostly littered with McMansions.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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The B&O Alexandria Extension did have a ferry connection to Southern (O&A) via ferry, and in fact NS still operates over the track in Alexandria to reach a thermal generating station.
During WWII a bridge was built across the Potomac so B&O trains could cross the river, but it was removed long ago.
My Georgetown Branch information comes from Herb Harwood's book "Impossible Challenge". Herb is a good historian, so I have no reason to doubt him.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by rresor: During WWII a bridge was built across the Potomac so B&O trains could cross the river, but it was removed long ago.
Wow! Lived in the DC area, with gaps, 1969 to 1978 and never heard that before. For part of the time I was in an apartment in the grungier part of old Alex just north of the Beltway.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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