posted
My wife and I were planning a round trip from San Jose to LAX on the Starlight in March, and we usually like to get a standard bedroom. It's only a day trip, but the standard bedroom is quieter and also allows us access to the Parlor Car.
We tried booking the trip online, but all the bedrooms were shown as sold out. We changed our days and still everything is sold out. Finally we called Amtrak and had a nice chat with a very friendly service representative - it turns out that Amtrak isn't running _any_ sleeping cars at all on the current, abbreviated, Starlight route from Sacramento to LA. No sleepers, no Parlor Car. It's either coach or nothing.
Bummer! Seems like yet another blow to the Starlight. Any updated news on the mudslide situation? At this point, we'll probably just skip Amtrak and drive. It beats coach, and the car trip is half the time of the Starlight.
posted
Since the Starlight’s allotted sleepers are out of service, where are they now?
Are other trains getting them? Or are the sleepers getting some tender loving care at either Los Angeles, or Beech Grove?
Or are they just sitting in Los Angeles and Seattle?
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
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When Amtrak announced the restoration of service between LAX and SAC they clearly stated that it would be coach only service. The service alert that appears as a link on the reservation page also states this.
Since 11 & 14 are just regional day trains for now, the demand for sleepers is likely insignificant, hence their absence. What we have here is essentially the Coast Daylight, which likewise won't have sleepers or a full dining car when it gets going in the not too distant future (pending funding). Consider this a test run for the Daylight revival.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Mr. Toy: ... won't have sleepers or a full dining car when it gets going in the not too distant future (pending funding). Consider this a test run for the Daylight revival.
Only coach cars from Sacramento to LA? Sounds like Greyhound Bus service on rails to me.
At least the Surfliners manage to have Business class, and the longest Surfliner trip you can take is only about half the time it takes to get from SJC to LAX. Is coach really the best Amtrak can do for the Starlight?
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by GIZMOS: Is coach really the best Amtrak can do for the Starlight?
No! Amtrak is screwing around with this whole Coast "Stublight" nonsense. And it *is* nonsense! This train should be running LAX to KFS (Klamath Falls, Oregon) DAILY! It should also be operating EUG (Eugene, Oregon) to SEA (Seattle, Washignton) DAILY!
Running this train with a single locomotive (which broke down two days ago, stranding the train and blocking the tracks, eventually leading to annulling the train in Oakland), and a Sighsteer Lounge with 3 coaches is ridiculous. For a run this long (LAX to SAC), it should have a diner. There is NO EXCUSE for this. There should also be one sleeper running, as there actually IS a market to sell day rooms for a run this long. You're on the train from roughly 10AM until midnight, and many people (myself included) routinely purchase sleeping car accommodations, even for a shorter journey. For me, taking #11 from OKJ (Oakland, CA) to LAX (Los Angeles, CA) is a sleeper. I'm not the only one who does this---many people do. Amtrak WAS considering marketing their sleepers for day travel last year, but that idea got squashed. The idea was too good, so they shot it down.
Mr. Kummant (Amtrak CEO) has been doing a very good job with Amtrak, in my opinion. However, I have NO IDEA what he is doing with the Starlight right now. It's a messy situation, with many unhappy people (passengers and employees alike). They have lost a large amount of revenue in future bookings for peak periods, such as Spring Break along the route of the Starlight which hits numerous college campuses. This is a complete mess, and it is total nonsense. EXTREMELY poor decision making going on at Amtrak right now.
I'll climb down off my soap box now.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
While likely not the most respectful way to say it, it appears to me Mr Smith that you have "bought the RAILPAC party line hook line and sinker".
I always though NARP was needlessly militant; they actually appear "fair and reasonable' since I have been exposed to the "teachings' of that first mentioned advocacy group.
Griefus, doesn't Amtrak have other things to do than dealing with the correspondence from that fellow Paul Dyson?
My West Coast colleagues, be patient; the Starlight will return, just as did the Talgos.
disclaimer: I never have nor likely ever will, belong to any rail passenger advocacy group. I'll ride LD's when convenient to my travel needs but simply as a means of A to B transportation for a guy who is in no rush to do much of anything anymore. If and when they're gone, I'll have my mostly pre-A-Day memories.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Attempting to find some middle ground here (though such often results in being taken down in the crossfire)....
I agree with Smitty that the train should be going all the way to KFS with a bus bridge to EUG. Sleepers and diner included. In a public service business, the customer's needs should come first, even when circumstances would require additional costs to accommodate those needs. It pays off in the long run with goodwill. Similarly, a customer's conviction that making a reservation with Amtrak means you will get to your destination generates priceless customer loyalty.
But since Amtrak has chosen not to do that, and since the train is essentially a regional day train for now, there is no more need for sleepers on the pseudo-Daylight than on the San Joaquins, Surfliners or Cascades.
Gizmo, there really is no comparison between Amtrak coach and Greyhound. Legroom on a Superliner coach vastly exceed's that of a bus, and no bus has an 85 foot long lounge with a cafe built in. I agree, though, that a day train is slower than driving. That's why I only take trains for overnight trips so we don't have to stop to sleep.
And for the record, I am a member of NARP and RailPAC. For my membership dollars I fully expect the leadership of these organizations to speak out on behalf the rail traveler's interests. That's the whole point of a passenger rail advocacy organization. Kudos to RailPAC for speaking out from the first day of cancellation.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Mr. Toy: Gizmo, there really is no comparison between Amtrak coach and Greyhound. Legroom on a Superliner coach vastly exceed's that of a bus, and no bus has an 85 foot long lounge with a cafe built in.
Fair enough, although remember that the bus trip from SJC to LA is six hours, but the train trip is twelve.
And I don't know about you, but for us the train has an unfortunate habit of turning into a bus anyway. Witness the letter from Mr Kummant to Paul Dyson here where Amtrak talks about busing passengers from San Jose to the San Joaquin, and then from Bakersfield to LA, as an alternative to the Starlight.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
As someone who has ridden overnight in both a Greyhound Bus and a Superliner, there is NO comparing the two. It actually creates a dangerous misperception to call an Amtrak LD Superliner coach a "Greyhound on Rails" as the two are vastly different. Sadly, for the first 33 years of my life, I HAD this misperception.
As for the lack of Sleepers, while some feel that "many people" book dayrooms, I'm not quite as confident that a sleeper would break even financially.
Plus, it would seem almost hypocritical... Why should it be that DEFINITE overnight trains 66 and 67 between BOS and NPN don't roster sleepers (or even A-IIs), while a long daytrain version of 11 and 14 should? This while other long daytrains (Maple Leaf, Vermonter, Carolinian, Palmetto, Adirondack) don't? The legroom in coach on a Superliner is certainly comparable to that in any BC coach, so I can't see a need for BC either, but that's just me.
Adirondack runs with Amfleet I's and has no such amenities. I'd be glad to ride Superliners in coach on a day run compared to an A-I.
-------------------- History of Baltimore and Baltimore Transit - Visit http://www.btco.net ! Posts: 86 | From: Baltimore | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I'm with Mr. Toy. However I do not belong to either organization. I am somewhere in between Gizmo and Mr Norman. We should remember that UP and BNSF and other RRs have their businesses to run. Advocacy is good, but bringing BOTH side to the table and recognizing both sides have their fair stakes would yield the best results.
For starters, I don't beleive Sleepers for a day train would break even. There are simply not enough passengers that are willing to pay 200+ extra dollars for a 10 to 12hr trip. Also, extending the train to KFS would be just for the sake of extending it to KFS. How many more passengers would be served compared to the costs? If they had a bus bridge, well, maybe it'd make sense...but then if you have sleepers they would have to transfer from their nice cozy sleepers to a bus ride and then to a Cascade trip...so much for seemless service. No I totally agree with Amtrak's decision.
As for militant advocacy groups, they need to recognize that the RR company's have their businesses to run. What we should be doing is dangling a larger carrot in front of their noses ($$$$$). Getting nasty with them will just create more tension and resentment. BTW: anybody get ANY news on the progress being made in Oakridge?
-------------------- Patrick Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Sometime in April seems about the likliest earliest reopening at this time.
Particularly, click on the pictures in the letter.
Like others here, I see no point whatsoever in putting a sleeper on a day train on the theory that there MIGHT be a few people that value their privacy so much that they will rent a room.
AS for two locomotives, this is also a waste. It is far more cost effective to have one well maintained locomotive that two poorly maintained ones.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
I have no problem with AMTRAK not running sleepers on the CS now while the mudslide is being repaired -- HOWEVER.......... let's just hope that the sleepers normally used in the CS, (which I assume are sitting somewhere idle now) don't get "loaned out" to other LD trains (Sunset, CZ, whatever.....) during the mudslide repair, amd then when it comes time to re-open the CS route, the sleeper cars are nowhere to be found........
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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"LibertyLimited" wrote: "As for the lack of Sleepers, while some feel that many people" book dayrooms, I'm not quite as confident that a sleeper would break even financially."
Just one question: why should a service provider have to break even in providing a service? Amtrak should not be run as a profit-making business because it provides a service. After all, how much profit is made while maintaining highways?
I also strongly agree with "smitty195". Points well made.
Margaret
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
While I certainly am not one of the "self-sufficiency" advocates for passenger transportation (I also cherish the LD network, and would like to see its gradual expansion), I also don't advocate for needless waste. If you totally ignore any sense of efficiency, you only give the enemies of passenger transportation some very viable ammunition.
I don't expect or want my local transit agency to be looking to break even, but if every bus I board only has 3 people aboard it, then something's got to give.
Adding a sleeper (not to mention a Parlor Car) to a day train increases fuel consumption, haulage expenses, and labor and maintenance costs, so there needs to be SOME justification in adding one. I would hope that someone at Amtrak reviewed just how many sleepers are reserved on average for riders travelling between SAC-LAX on the CS to determine if a sleeper was necessary. If this number is in the single digits, then indeed I would think it best to skip the amenity. The quantification of "many people" sounds awfully anecdotal.
Superliner coaches are THE roomiest, most comfortable coaches run on Amtrak, to which one also has the option of choosing a lower level seat if they wish to have better privacy.
Sorry, but I have a LOT more sympathy for someone who endures a 13 hour ride in an Amfleet I from CLT-NYP on the Carolinian or a 14-15 hour ride OVERNIGHT NPN-BOS in an Amfleet I on Regionals 66/67, than someone who cannot upgrade to isolate themselves from the barely 100 others aboard the Stubby Starlight in a Sleeper compartment and First Class Parlor.
We'll simply have to agree to disagree.
Had they obliged and added these amenities, would people then be criticizing the lack of a Full Diner?
-------------------- History of Baltimore and Baltimore Transit - Visit http://www.btco.net ! Posts: 86 | From: Baltimore | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Amtrak website states that Thruway coach service will commence February 29th between Sacramento and Portland, with meal and rest stops en route. Perhaps not ideal, but better than no service at all. Chris G's attempt to reserve a seat on the Starlight Stub recently was unsuccesful, all seats taken. John
Posts: 41 | From: Yaxham, Norfolk, UK | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Be sure to note that the Press Release is now calling for a resumption of train service only in April. At present, however, the website continues to show a through train effective March 24.
Oh well, first a few days, then a week, then another week, than a month, and now resumption will be pushing three months.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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The big re-launch of the Coast Starlight is supposed to be at the beginning of May. Maybe the first run of the train WILL be the re-launch? Wishful thinking on my part. I'm just sorta thinking how Amtrak could make a big deal out of resuming service AND re-launching the train. Invite the news media, put out press releases, get free advertisement in the form of newspaper articles and online articles announcing that the UP slide has been repaired and service is being restored after three months of suspension. In addition, now Amtrak will have a premier train with all new amenities and services!
Wait just a minute.....it's starting to make sense and would make Amtrak look good. Nevermind---they'll never do it.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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My lady friend and I are booked on the Coast Starlight in early July. I m still even pessemistic about that date! I ve taken dozens of long Amtrak trips alone, and now I ve built her up on the relaunch of the CS and the joys of long distance Amtrak travel. She 's only ridden a few commuter trains. I really hope everything is normal by July!I want her first LD train ride to be memorable, so she will want to do a lot more in the future.
I m breaking her in easy..flying to LA, the train to Seattle and flying back East. In time I hope I can talk her into making the entire trip by train.
I know RRRich will be taking the CS around the same time as I am...if it still is not iperating, that could be a problem..and I really don t relish bustitution from Sacramento to Portland!
Posts: 176 | From: Bloomsburg Pa | Registered: Jul 2000
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LA to Seattle is even above the level of 'breaking her in'. LOL That's still almost a 36 hour train ride. LOL Hopefully, you have a sleeper (since its her first time).
I would bet a buck or two that the CS will be up and running fully in July. My guess would be that that that train will be 'back in the habit' by May or sooner. June and July are VERY popular months for that train. Have fun.
-------------------- Patrick Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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This would be consistent with the most recent info on UPRR's website: 4 to 6 weeks as of Feb. 15.
Posts: 387 | From: Bakersfield, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I'll double-check my sources, but I think the motels in Oakridge are all 100% sold-out through at least mid-May for railroad employees and contractors. Local businesses have been extremely happy recently, as they are having more business than they have EVER had. Businesses that we would normally not think of when it comes to railroad emergencies, such as the local dry cleaners, are doing a booming business. They are so short on motel rooms that some local residents are renting out rooms in their homes to workers. As one local said, "What recession?". Because of the pre-booking of hotels for such a long period, I am having doubts as to whether or not the Coast Starlight will be running the full route length by April 1st. But I would love to be pleasantly surprised!
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by amtraxmaniac: This would be consistent with the most recent info on UPRR's website: 4 to 6 weeks as of Feb. 15.
More optimism than realism.
According to a recent discussion on trainorders, the slide is still moving and they had 8 inches of fresh snow over the weekend, stopping work for a day or two.
Until the ground stops moving, there can be no finish date given with any certainty.
There was also mention of "rumor" of bringing in a pile driver, which may mean they are giving up on restoration into a more or less as-was condition and are planning to bridge the site. This has its own difficulties, as if the slide plane is deep in the ground, and this one apparently is, you have to get the foundation below the slide plane and develop a foundation design that will stop the mountain.
An alternate scheme using a pile driver would be to drive enough piles through the slide plane to stitch the ground above the slide plane to the ground below the slide plane and stop it that way. This may or may not work. You may find that a new and lower slide plane develops and an even bigger chunk of mountainside starts moving.
There is a potential for "weeks" becoming "months."
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Interesting info, George -- what is your source for this info? I'd like to look at it, since I have a background in engineering geology. If they "bridge" the slide, won't that also involve extensive realignment of the tracks?
I can see possibly bridging that entire "horseshoe curve" at some time in the future, but that definitely would involve considerable realignment. Remember the Thistle landslide in 1993 (?)......
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Miss Vickie, I think you had best be on the phone with the airline of your choice. It appears that you and Mr. Art will not be the only ones around here with travel plans plans affected by the Starlight's, for all intent and purpose, indefinite annulment.
While I'm "not exactly" a proponent of such, who knows, maybe a "Deschutes Daylingt" will come to pass?
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Amtrak continues to have its service notice on its homepage.
Even for straight and level trackage in my neck of the woods, it took weeks to restore the ex CB&Q (now BNSF) between Parkville and Farley, MO after the flood of 1993.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gil - I still hold out hope for the May 8th trip on the CS. But my alternate is not the air but the ground. We will drive if the train is not running.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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Vicki.......I'm not so sure it will be running by May 8th. I have not purchased my tickets yet, because I just have a feeling that they will be holding off on the re-launch. From some of the stuff I've heard regarding the slide, it's a VERY long way from being re-opened. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it's not until mid-summer or even later. I hope I'm wrong though!
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Smitty, it does sound pretty grim. I used 30,000 points for these tickets but I presume I can return them and get the points back if the train is not running. In the meantime I have printed out the info about parking at the Seattle cruise ship terminal. We can drive up there in not much more time than the CS takes. But I was sure looking forward to seeing the "new" CS and hope it will happen.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I know UP employees currently working onsite at the Oregon slide. They really have their hands full. And UP really wants to get that line reopened ASAP.
Hang in there, folks.
-------------------- Ham Radio Orange County, California Posts: 46 | From: Orange County, CA | Registered: Dec 2007
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I don't think anyone around here thinks UP is dallying restoring the line just so they can persuade Amtrak to permanently kill the Starlight. As they noted at their website, they have advised shippers to expect 72 hours of additional handling time on N-S West Coast cars.
Not sure that band of militants over at RAILPAC shares same thought.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I too do NOT believe that UP is purposely delaying repair of the slide, since they need the line reopened as much as AMTRAK does. It will take some time though -- I just hope the slide is repaired before July, since we are planning on taking the CS from LAX to SEA on our trip this summer. if the slide is not repaired by July, we will NOT fly or take a bus from L.A. or Sacramento to Seattle, however - we will rent a car and drive.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Well, it does not sound good for our May trip from San Diego to Portland so I am preparing an alternative plan. How about San Diego to Sacramento via Surfliner-Bus to Bakersfield (yuck!!) Then San Joaquins to Sacramento. Stay a night in SAC, then get a car and off to Yosemite for two days. Then head north via I-5 and alternatives to Oregon--Crater Lake--Central Oregon to Portland. Stay in Portland for a two day trip around Mt Hood, then board the Cascades to Seattle and Empire Builder/Capitol Lmt. back home. Saved part of our Amtrak rides,(CLE-San via LSL and SWC; take some new ones (San Joaquins) see Yosemite, Mt Hood and Glacier Natl Park (we missed that in the dark on last years trip). Hotel reservations at SAC and Mariposa are made and changed our PDX reservations for a few less days than originally planned. With a refund of our LAX to PDX tickets, we will be all set. This of course is Plan B, and still hoping the original trip via the Coast Starlight will work out but we shall see. Watching the news from Oregon with great interest. Keep up the great reports. Railroad and Mrs. Bill. Westward Ho!!
Posts: 87 | From: Ohio | Registered: Apr 2007
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Succinctly, a West Coast group RAILPAC petitioned Amtrak to restore the Starlight as far as possible to the head of the blockage, namely Seattle-Eugene and K Falls-LA and provide a busteetoot between those points via , presumably via US 97 and OR 58.
OK fine, as I guess that is what advocacy groups members pay dues to have done.
An Oakland based Amtrak executive responded with the usual "litany" of cost, inconvenience (to staff), and even the new Labor Agreements. In short, no!
RAILPAC posted this letter at their page; Amtrak quickly advised RAILPAC the letter was a fake and had best "cease and desist". They did; and yanked the material,
Now enter an East Coast group URPA, they somehow have knowledge the letter is authentic and are imploring Amtrak's Inspector General to review the matter.
There it stands.
From reviewing the material I find one error which would have me concurring with Amtrak's position that the letter is a fake. From having reviewed enough Amtrak internal and external correspondence during my years in the industry, it is Amtrak protocol to capitalize Corporation. This letter simply presents such in lower case.
But on the flip side, I've been gone from the industry pushing thirty years and maybe protocols have changed.
Just a thought.
Finally, FWIW, as of a few moments ago, the website returns a train San Jose to Portland for April 1; bets anyone?
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Succinctly, a West Coast group RAILPAC petitioned Amtrak to restore the Starlight as far as possible to the head of the blockage, namely Seattle-Eugene and K Falls-LA and provide a busteetoot between those points via , presumably via US 97 and OR 58.
******************************* I can't understand why, from the onset, that they did not provide a bus link between Klamath and Eugene, along 97 and 58. It would seem more logical than bus passengers from Sacramento to Portland. I'm not sure, but I think Horizon Airlines flies between Sac and Portland..if I were on the Starlight, I think I would prefer an air link rather than the bus. Even a flight between Oakland and Portland, I think, would be more convenient.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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A bus link between K-falls and Eugene wouldn't be any faster than a bus link between Dunsmuir and Eugene. Hwys 97 and 58 are nice rides but dicy in the winter and the ride over Mt. Ashland on I-5 can get iffy too. There must be many factors to consider. The logistics of it all are beyond me, however, living in the area, I see the Sacramento--Portland bus link reasonable.
Posts: 139 | From: myrtle creek oregon | Registered: Jul 2006
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