posted
Yes Smitty it is just an awful scene and there are several fatalities. It might end up being Metrolink's worse wreck.
I'd hate to speculate this early, but I think Metrolink may have ran a signal or the signals were not operating properly.
This Map shows where the collision took place. If you pan down (south) a bit you will see where the line goes down to single tracks due to the tunnels. Metrolink had just left Chatsworth and was heading North. UP was heading south. The wreck occurred close to the signals where Metrolink would have been held. UP may have also ran a signal, but this is northwest and far from the wreck site.
Starlight and other trains will obviously be annulled for several days.
Terrible tragedy. I'm praying for those whose families may be affected by this.
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
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While obviously too early to tell (and the NTSB Investigation report will not likely be available for a year), it likely is a case of human error.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
17 dead so far. The Surfliner northern section will not run for now. The Starlight will start and end at SBA, at least today, with "alternate transportation" provided to and from LA.
I find this whole thing very frightening. Seems that collisions like this should be impossible, there should be so many fail safes that it can't happen. Metrolink itself seems doomed to have serious accidents.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I grew up in Chatsworth in the 1960's. I lived about 1/2 mile from the point of collision. It is sad to see this.
Typically, about how many freight trains come through this track each day? When I lived there, there was only one passenger each way, the Coast Daylight, and quite a few freight trains.
Posts: 446 | From: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
The Metrolink's engine is INSIDE the first passenger car - no wonder there are unfortunately so many casualties.
Now for my soapbox - and I make no apologies for directing this at certain posters. Out of respect for those affected, I think it best we leave the speculation to the professional investigative authorities. There is no way of us knowing what happened. I've seen a friend's life wrecked by speculation about what he did or didn't do - and the report completely exonerated him. But it was too late as the damage had been done by idle speculation on forums such as this and in the media.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The Victum count is now at 24 (foxnews) , the Metrolink Enigine has been removed from the First Car it telescopes into, they say there exspecting worse when they remove the colapsed second floor of the first car, and that Friday's crash is now the worst Rail disaster in the past 15 years.. its very sad, say a preyer for those who were involved and that the suvivors in the hospital are ok
posted
A Metrolink spokesperson says the rail line's preliminary investigation shows that the Metrolink engineer ran a red signal and was the probable case of the crash. This is unusual, coming in advance of the NTSB investigation and findings, and the NTSB itself says it's too soon to tell. The New York Times story is at:
Death toll at 25 as of 9:30 CDT Saturday and expected to climb further; some 40 victims are in critical condition.
I wonder if Metrolink wanted the spokesperson's statement made in order to cushion the impact of inevitable lawsuits, much as many hospitals now are admitting mistakes and apologizing for them so that wronged patients will be more willing to settle than litigate.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
On our news tonight all that was said was Metrolink thought the engineer failed to stop at a red light. Speaking of news doesn't our poster Mike live in Beaumont TX? I hope he and his family are safe. If anyone hears please post it.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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I practically fell out of the chair at Hyatt's restaurant this morning at Breakfast when I noted that Metrolink had announced it was he engineer's fault.
But as Matt Wald was quick to note in the Times, "it aint over" until the NTSB files their report:
Finally volks, to close on a lighter note, there was a bagpiper performing at the Wedding (outdoors) yesterday (anyone ever hear the Wagner "wedding' processional played by a bagpiper before?).
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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You must have gone to Chatsworth, eh? I went to Taft. Same era, though I might be a little younger, class of 1974.
This is not good on any level. There are rumors today that the Metrolink engineer failed to heed signals. If he did, first, watch for a demand for a work rules change: Two in the cab, calling and confirming signals. Second, the families will own Metrolink.
Now, if there is a signal systems error attributable to UP, then the last is true for UP vice Metrolink.
Disclaimer: IRA position in UNP.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Doodlebug: News reports are now emerging that the Metrolink engineer may have been text-messaging railfans on his cellphone at the time of the accident.
If this proves to be the case, it has to be the most irresponsible act ever......missing a signal to mess with a tiny keyboard.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by PullmanCo: ...Now, if there is a signal systems error attributable to UP...
I believe Metrolink now owns the portion of track where the collision took place, and it is dispatched by Metrolink. So I'm assuming they are responsible for the signaling system. It's part of the Metrolink Ventura Sub. Slightly past Moorpark at CP Las Posas is where the UP Santa Barbara sub takes over.
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
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Associated Press reports that the National Transportation Safety Board has requested cell phone records of two teen-agers and the Metrolink engineer and has also interviewed the teens and their families.
Also, a split apparently has emerged between the Metrolink board and its communications department over the issue of blaming the engineer for running a signal.
posted
I predict this will mark the beginning of the end for passenger cab cars. Before long state and/or federal regulations will require a locomotive or dedicated cab car at the front end. Metrolink and other push-pull services may even take the initiative themselves to save face. I expect riders will demand it. This is, after all, the second major accident with Metrolink involving fatalities in the lead passenger car.
Reports in my local paper implied this wouldn't have happened if freight and passenger trains weren't using the same tracks, as if passenger trains wouldn't collide if they were coming towards each other on the same track.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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posted
But Mr. Toy, this appeared to be a "cornfield meet," in that both locomotives were headed towards each other. Cab cars had nothing to do with it, except that they might have been at the other end of the train.
-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: Smitty -- I couldn't get any sound with the first video link you posted
That link was only good while they were broadcasting the live events of the crash.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
NTSB reported yesterday that the signals were working properly, and that the radio transmissions show that the crew did NOT call out on the radio the last two signals. They passed a flashing yellow signal, and it was not called out on the radio. They passed a red signal, and it was not called out on the radio. So not only did one crew member (the engineer) miss two signals, but the damn conductor didn't notice something unusual going on????? Just like in airplane accidents, there is never a single error made....it is always a chain of errors that leads up to a crash.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Smitty is correct about the chain of errors cause for the crash. Rail and commercial air transportation entities have procedures that are based on redundancy and multiple checks so that operational safety is as protected from individual mistakes as possible. So assuming the reports that Metrolink ran a stop signal are correct, more than one person made a mistake.
Second, the Metrolink spokeswoman who said the accident was caused by Metrolink's training running a stop signal has resigned.
As a former journalist now involved in media relations, I sympathize with her plight.
Posts: 48 | From: San Jose, Calif. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mr. Toy: I predict this will mark the beginning of the end for passenger cab cars. Before long state and/or federal regulations will require a locomotive or dedicated cab car at the front end. Metrolink and other push-pull services may even take the initiative themselves to save face. I expect riders will demand it. This is, after all, the second major accident with Metrolink involving fatalities in the lead passenger car.
Reports in my local paper implied this wouldn't have happened if freight and passenger trains weren't using the same tracks, as if passenger trains wouldn't collide if they were coming towards each other on the same track.
It's amazing how the "lay" media can get it so wrong when they attempt to report on railroad operating issues and procedures. There has been a wealth of misinformation and speculation by so many in this case...the latest casualty seems to be Denise Tyrell of Metrolink. But Mr. Toy, you do know that the locomotive was LEADING in the wreck, right? The train was in the supposedly safer pull-mode. There may be the rare instance, (wild speculation here) that in some wrecks a train might have less injuries operating in "push" mode. For example, a rear-end collision by another train coming up from the rear...
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
smitty and doodlebug; today it is being reported that the main track switch at CP Topanga was "run through," ie. broken. It was a "trailing point" movement for Metro. Kitty Higgins (NTSB Board member and now one of the lead investigators) commented that it was "bent like a banana." One would think that this switch was lined for the UP freight meet with Metro 111, and that the controlling sig. there, if working properly, would have been red-over-red for the Metrolink train. And to make things even murkier, a witness has surfaced saying he "saw" that sig. as clear, or green. Our best bet now is to let cooler heads prevail and allow the NTSB to do their meticulous, methodical work...
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Railroad Bob: Our best bet now is to let cooler heads prevail and allow the NTSB to do their meticulous, methodical work...
The NTSB is extremely good at what they do. Sooner or later (most likely later), there will be a definitive answer as to what took place. Unfortunately, the NTSB can only recommend "fixes" when they find ill procedures. (The NTSB has been recommending for years that the cargo belly of commercial aircraft have a fire extinguishing system, but the FAA has chosen to ignore these recommendations).
As far as the witness who saw the green signal, my two cents follows: Of course this person has to be interviewed, however, his statement could be proven incorrect. I've been involved in training classes that demonstrate how witness statements can be totally wrong. I've seen examples of two police officers witnessing the exact same event, yet they report two different things. The human element can not be corrected sometimes. Same thing with traffic accidents---the witness stories are usually conflicting, which is why (in serious cases) an accident reconstruction specialist will follow the evidence to come up with a cause. The NTSB will do the same thing.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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"The Safety Board also reiterated a recommendation to the Federal Railroad Administration to facilitate actions necessary for development and implementation of positive train control systems that include collision avoidance, and require implementation of positive train control systems on main line tracks, establishing priority requirements for high-risk corridors such as those where commuter and intercity passenger railroads operate."
A former head of the NTSB interview on KNX radio over the weekend thought the latest accident might be enough for Congress to finally mandate PTCS installation.
Posts: 41 | From: San Diego, CA, USA | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Greg: A former head of the NTSB interview on KNX radio over the weekend thought the latest accident might be enough for Congress to finally mandate PTCS installation.
Look at all the horses running loose. Is that the sound of a barn door closing I hear?
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Before everyone gets all warm and fuzzy about PTC, remember anything invented by man has the possibility of error. Note Smitty's "it is always a chain of errors that leads up to a crash." All PTC does is put one more link in the chain, which also gives it one more place to break. Increased complexity does not necessarily lead to increased safety. The NTSB and before it the ICC are notorious for recommending expensive mechanical solutions to solve all human error accident, and also while making these recommendations blithely ignoring both examples of their failure and any thought of cost-benefit ratios.
I hear some dolt sounding shocked that they were depending upon a "red light" to tell the engineer what to do. What do you think we all do when driving down a city street?
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I predict this will mark the beginning of the end for passenger cab cars. Before long state and/or federal regulations will require a locomotive or dedicated cab car at the front end. Metrolink and other push-pull services may even take the initiative themselves to save face. I expect riders will demand it. This is, after all, the second major accident with Metrolink involving fatalities in the lead passenger car.
Reports in my local paper implied this wouldn't have happened if freight and passenger trains weren't using the same tracks, as if passenger trains wouldn't collide if they were coming towards each other on the same track.
It's amazing how the "lay" media can get it so wrong when they attempt to report on railroad operating issues and procedures.
There has been a wealth of misinformation and speculation by so many in this case...the latest casualty seems to be Denise Tyrell of Metrolink. But Mr. Toy, you do know that the locomotive was LEADING in the wreck, right? The train was in the supposedly safer pull-mode. There may be the rare instance, (wild speculation here) that in some wrecks a train might have less injuries operating in "push" mode. For example, a rear-end collision by another train coming up from the rear...
More speculation here, but some railroad personnel on other forums have noted the lack of underframe support on the Bombardier bilevels. The construction of this type of railcar may indeed be lacking.
Also, you get rid of cab cars, you also get rid of EMUs and DMUs. Never mind light rail (streetcars/steam interurbans), which generally have not had a leading locomotive since steam days. (I suspect it would be bizarre to see something like an ALP-46 pulling a BART or NYCTA subway train, at the very least.)
Posts: 566 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Railroad Bob: But Mr. Toy, you do know that the locomotive was LEADING in the wreck, right?
Nope. I just saw the photos of the passenger car blasted to pieces and assumed it took the direct impact. I've seen a lot of train wreck pictures and never saw that kind of damage in anything that didn't take a direct hit.
Posts: 2649 | From: California's Monterey Peninsula | Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Railroad Bob: But Mr. Toy, you do know that the locomotive was LEADING in the wreck, right?
Nope. I just saw the photos of the passenger car blasted to pieces and assumed it took the direct impact. I've seen a lot of train wreck pictures and never saw that kind of damage in anything that didn't take a direct hit.
You know, it wasn't until I took the time to read and study a day or two afterwards that I realized the locomotive was leading. The photo which made most of the news outlets did look rather like it had been a cab control car up front.
I'm thinking that there will be some serious inquiry into the quality of Metrolinks rolling stock now......as in are the ends of the cars sturdy enough to withstand a collision and prevent 'telescoping'? Initial observation seems to suggest not.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Service between SBA and LAUPT was not restored yesterday afternoon and will not happen today (Tuesday, 16 September). Hopefully it will happen tomorrow. The Starlight will terminate here with transfers to Los Angeles.
Frank in overcast SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Does the Coast Starlight sit at the SBA station overnight, or is there a nearby yard where they can take it for servicing and cleaning?
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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I believe they use a siding just east of State Street. Or they may take it to Oxnard where there is probably more room.
All--
Although the Amtrak website still says no service today I just spoke with an agent who assured me that trains (in particular 775) are operating. That said, our friend from here, Gibg, is going to take the Flyaway to LAUPT and, hopefully, the train up here. The agent was surprised that the website wasn't updated. I wasn't.
Frank in SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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"The Safety Board also reiterated a recommendation to the Federal Railroad Administration to facilitate actions necessary for development and implementation of positive train control systems that include collision avoidance, and require implementation of positive train control systems on main line tracks, establishing priority requirements for high-risk corridors such as those where commuter and intercity passenger railroads operate."
A former head of the NTSB interview on KNX radio over the weekend thought the latest accident might be enough for Congress to finally mandate PTCS installation.
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Here is the situation of the area, listed in the direction of the Metrolink train:
446.8 CP DeSoto, east end siding 445.5 Chatsworth Station 444.4 CP Topanga, west end siding 444.0 east portal Tunnel No. 28 443.9 west portal Tunnel No. 28 (tunnel 537 feet long)
Allowed Speeds Freight: 40 mph throughout the area. (60 mph west of 437.7) Passenger: 50 mph – 440.9-442.6 40 mph – 442.6-444.5 70 mph – 444.5-453.1 Through turnouts at CP's DeSoto and Topanga and on the siding between those points, 45P/40F
Approximate point of collision: milepost 444.2. Collision was in middle of a curve with a central angle of about 90 degrees, so visibility was very limited. Not certain whether Metrolink was on siding or main, but either way, the speed limit for both trains at the point of collision was 40 mph.
I will make no speculation on what went wrong, and would consider it inadvisable to do so.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
I was also wondering about PTC, "Positive Train Control". I did not even know what PTC was until the term appeared in a newspaper column, this summer, in regard to the proposed SMART train (Sonoma Marin Area Rail Transit) which, if approved on the Nov ballot, will have a train between Larkspur, north of the Golden Gate, to Cloverdale, Calif. SMART will run on Northwestern Pacific tracks, and the newspaper column said there could be problems in cooperation if the train initiative is approved and it starts running in a about six years.
SMART wants PTC, but Northwestern Pacific says that Positive Train Control is unrealistically optimistic". The NWP will not only have to coordinate its acitivity with SMART, but it has to establish cooperation and connection schedules with Union Pacific (ugh!), especially in regard to a solid-waste train that NWP plans to operate.
This is going to get interesting if the SMART train initiative passes in November.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Here is the situation of the area, listed in the direction of the Metrolink train:
446.8 CP DeSoto, west end siding 445.5 Chatsworth Station 444.4 CP Topanga, east end siding 444.0 west portal Tunnel No. 28 443.9 east portal Tunnel No. 28 (tunnel 537 feet long)
[...]
Approximate point of collision: milepost 444.2.
So, playing dumb here, the Metrolink's last signal was about 0.2 miles behind it, at the end of twin track? If both were doing 40mph then the freight would never have even seen his signals drop back to red as the Metrolink entered the section - assuming, of course, the freight did have clear signals to begin with. There is a video on YouTube which demonstrates this happening - if anybody wants the link, PM me as I don't feel it appropriate to post publically, though you can probably find it easily.
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: I will make no speculation on what went wrong, and would consider it inadvisable to do so.
I couldn't agree more, for the reasons I stated in my earlier "rant". Just goes to show the true rail(way|road)man you are.
Geoff M.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
As a private pilot and a regular reader of NTSB reports, I could not agree more with Mr. Harris and Mr. Geoff M. about speculation on the causes of transportation accidents until the investigators have done their job and reported their findings. What at first seemed a clear cause often ends up an irrelevancy.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
here come the lawsuits. Thats just great, sue the heck out of metrolink. That will bring the victims back to life. And it will result in higher fares for future passengers, as im sure metrolink will pass on the costs to them, just like all businesses do.
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