I missed out on the New Haven RR Talgos, have had no reason to be near those in Wash State, and have otherwise had one ride in this life aboard such, namely Irun to Madrid. You can tell my enthusiasm for this equipment simply runneth over.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I have been assured by Amtrak (in an e-mail response) that the Talgo service from Seattle to Vancouver, B.C. WILL resume on July 25, 2009! That's good news for Vikki, Art and us! We are all planning on using the service to get to Vancouver for cruises.
Frank in Sunny SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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If the line is really curvey, which Portland to Seattle, and I think also Seattle to Vancouver is, then a Talgo, or a more robust version of one, makes sense. For something as near straight as Chicago to Milwaukee, no.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Question: what's the definition of Talgo? It seems like there's no standard appearance, other than being a light-weight car; and does it refer just to the rolling stock or to the motive power as well?
Posts: 518 | From: Maynard, MA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I enjoyed our Talgo trip to Vancouver a couple years ago (and a much earlier one from Madrid to Seville) and think it is an appropriate train for relatively short distances that negotiates a route with lots of curves. Former Southern and Seaboard routes through the Piedmont region might qualify.
I liked the amenities on the Talgo - curtains at your seat (biz class), monitor to track your progress, and a nice diner with food superior to normal Amtrak fare. I did not like the relatively rough ride you got - although I'm sure some of that was BNSF track.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Although I liked the Talgo trip down from Vancouver to Seattle, which I took twice, I found it surprisingly noisy! And I liked even more the Superliner trip we took up from Seattle to Vancouver, which had one of the good observation-style lounge cars, fantastic for viewing the waters as we rode by. OTOH, about 2 weeks later, I took a Superliner down from Vancouver to Seattle that had a weirdly configured lounge car, with the seats facing in! And a few days later I took a Superliner from Seattle to Salem Oregon that was in horrid condition; air conditioner broke after Portland!
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by TBlack: Question: what's the definition of Talgo? It seems like there's no standard appearance, other than being a light-weight car; and does it refer just to the rolling stock or to the motive power as well?
The Talgo cars ride lower to the rails, each car is shorter than a conventional car, and two cars share a single truck where they join together. The sharing of the truck is where the tremendous weightsavings comes in.
Personally, I've ridden the Cascades talgo and found them to be far more pleasant of a ride than anything Amfleet.......had to do with the huge windows.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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There are really a lot of unanswered questions here; the biggest of course is whither the funding?
Local/FTA? ARRA '09? Omnibus spending; Federal and/or Local level?
Secondly, it appears that Talgo USA has a "hell on wheels" business plan; they seem ready to set up shop, both manufacture and maintenance, in whatever jurisdiction is willing to give them some business. If this Wisconsin initiative is to move forth (while obviously there is intent, I must question to what extent this represents at this time a "done deal"), there now means there will be an "off in the wilderness" maintenance facility for this equipment resulting in less operational efficiency.
To continue, if this equipment is funded (and the Governor's press release is conveniently silent on this point) by Wisconsin's allocation of the "$8B for HSR" under ARRA '09, will there be sufficient "buy American' content to meet the Act's rather undefined provisions regarding such. Final assembly will of course be done in Wisconsin (Janesville?), but the running gear will be foreign sourced. Possibly US sourced raw materials such as aluminum for the car bodies could help, but could these bodies be fabricated here - ideally in Wisconsin.
Finally, while shiny new equipment will be backdrop for the photo ops, one must wonder what the farepaying public will be in for come five years of revenue service. As I recall from my one Talgo ride, no matter where one sat in the car, it was as if you were sitting atop the trucks. This equipment hardly seems suitable for the straightaway Chi-Milw run, but alas, politics are politics.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr Norman, I certainly have to agree, It seems like "overkill" for a 90 mile, 90 minute trip...
Posts: 332 | From: Long Island, NY USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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The plan in Wisconsin is to have the trains run to Madison from Chicago, and possibly eventually to the Twin Cities. Actually what I read in the Madison paper is that the Milwaukee-Madison link will come first, then Hiawatha (or maybe the much debated KRM? - Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee to connect to Metra?). There is a lot of Milwaukee-Madison traffic now (and good bus service). The grumbling I hear about the train is that the Madison stop will be the airport, and of the course the Badger bus goes downtown and to the UW campus. There will have to be some really good shuttle service between the airport and Capitol Square (for example) to make people abandon the Badger bus. I rode a Talgo train Portland - Seattle a couple years ago and found it a VAST improvement over the aging Hiawatha cars.
-------------------- My new "default" station (EKH) has no baggage service or QuikTrak machine, but the parking is free! And the NY Central RR Museum is just across the tracks (but not open at Amtrak train times. . ..) Posts: 337 | From: Goshen, IN | Registered: Jun 2006
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I rode a Talgo from Irun to Madrid two months ago. It was a class 130 "Alvia" set with ugly duckbills on the engines at both ends. The faster 102s are even uglier. The interior was pleasant enough, though. What was interesting was that you could really hear what type of track we were riding on. It was pretty noisy on jointed rail but got quiet on welded rail. As with a few other Talgos, this train had adjustable wheelsets so it could run on the wider Spanish gauge tracks as well as the standard gauge high speed line from Valladolid to Madrid. I understand that this line is rated for 320 KPH (217 MPH) but it never went faster than 200 KPH (124).
A week later I took an overnight Talgo from Barcelona to Paris, which also changed gauges (and engines) at the border, Port Bou/Cerbere.
I would also agree that a Talgo would be better suited to a longer route than Chicago-Milwaukee. There are plenty of other Diesel Multiple Unit trains in Europe that would make more sense for such a short haul; perhaps a Danish Flexliner, which was once tested on the LA-SD line. If the Hiawatha line were ever extended to Green Bay, it would make sense. Or possibly Chicago-Carbondale(-Memphis?), if that line were upgraded.
I just hope they use an engine that that has a roofline that harmonizes better with the low Talgo cars. Those F59s (built for double deckers) look ridiculous on the Cascades.
Posts: 49 | From: Brookline, MA | Registered: Sep 2007
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No surprise; Talgo plans to pull up stakes in Milwaukee after the four trains, two for Wisconsin and two more for Oregon, are delivered during 2012;
Brief passage:
MILWAUKEE -- One day after Wisconsin lost its funding for high-speed rail, train maker Talgo said it will shut down it's Milwaukee manufacturing plant in early 2012.
The company said, with no Wisconsin high-speed rail line, there will be no trains to build and no way to keep that facility up and running.
The assembly work on Talgo trains has just begun, but suddenly the company's Milwaukee manufacturing operation is facing the end of the line
I wouldn't be the least surprised if Wisconsin declines to take delivery of the two Talgos for some contrived reason. There could well be a rerun of the New York State Turbo fiasco. If Wisconsin places these trains in revenue service, they will just end up as "orphans" without much in the way of, if any, technical support needed to keep the tempermental prima dona's a warbling. Maybe they'll find a home on the Cascade service, or pro-rail North Carolina, with its routes that can benefit, i.e. schedule reductions such as have been realized in the Pacific Northwest, from Talgo's superior curve handling capabilities. When it is finally time, possibly with Illinois taking the lead, equipment suitable for the largely tangent Midwest corridors will be ordered.
Oh, and what did I say earlier in this topic about a "hell on wheels" business plan?
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I never rode the Talgo. However from what I am reading the Cascades Talgo seems to be a nice service. But a 90 minute Chicago-Milwaukee could be best served by the Amfleet cars. I certainly agree with MetSox. The roofline looks ricidulous with the engines. It reminds of the "kiddieland" amusement park train rides. All you need is a giant engineer sitting on top between those streamlining wings or whatever.
Posts: 498 | From: New Hope, PA, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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I do believe the industrial designer Cesar Vergara described the effect as "Chihuahuas following a St. Bernard!"
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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Chicago Tribune today reports "there's somethin' happnin' out there"
Brief passage:
Score one for Illinois, maybe.
Under siege by New Jersey's attempts to lure businesses from Illinois and bruised by the Chicago Bears' loss to the Green Bay Packers, Gov. Pat Quinn went on the offensive and reeled in a maker of high-speed passenger trains that had set up shop in Wisconsin, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Wednesday.
"The governor (of Illinois) just was able to attract Talgo, which is a train manufacturing company from Wisconsin, to come to Illinois to manufacture train sets, which is quite a coup," LaHood said in Washington.
Asked for details, federal and state officials hedged their answers while not quite retracting what LaHood said.
"There is no agreement, to our knowledge,'' said a U.S. Department of Transportation spokesman, speaking on condition of anonymity. "To the best of our knowledge, they are still working on it.''
Suffice to say, I'm hardly pleased by this development. While I should welcome that any industrial facility offering maybe 100 or so well-paying jobs is locating within an "Enterprise Zone" (be it assured they will to reap the inherent "tax breaks') of a state, my state, that is "really not all that recovered' from the Recession, such does not in itself make for a prudent expenditure of public funds.
Quite simply I will reiterate my position; there is no need for Talgo equipment within the Milwaukee-St Louis corridor, nor the other two within Illinois. Talgo equipment will have to be maintained by an outside contractor and will require an on-board technician to ride each set. This could well result in labor "unrest' amongst Amtrak Shop Craft employees.
While possibly there is a "curve or two' Galesburg-Quincy (never ridden it), the other routes are largely tangential. Bi-Level equipment maintained by Amtrak Shop Crafts at 14th St and Beech Grove will do quite fine for any existing, and even any proposed, Illinois service.
Now not for one moment do I forget that there are other regions about that are encouraging development of rail corridors and in which Talgo equipment could prove beneficial. I of course first think of Seattle-Portland where Talgo equipment has resulted in a 30min schedule reduction over previous conventional equipment service. I also envision North Carolina with its curvy routes and especially so should the oft-proposed service to Asheville materialize.
So while I hold there are potential markets about the country interested in establishing intercity rail service and where Talgo equipment could be beneficial, Illinois is not one of them. Further, Talgo is living up to its "hell on wheels' business model and should orders materialize such as from Washstate or Oregon, that is likely where they will pull up stakes and relocate to.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I have ridden the Talgos in the northwest and really, really like them.......
That said, I have heard (but not seen confirmation) that should North Carolina look to procure brand new passenger train equipment, they would look into bilevel cars such as the California Cars or maybe those funky bifocal bilevel commuter cars that GO used in Toronto for years (and likely still does).
For now, the NCDOT is having a good run with their fleet of reconditioned 1960's Heritage Coaches which began their service lives on the Kansas City Southern...... our Piedmont's feature the biggest windows available on any single level Amtrak train!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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During the Christmas holidays I rode on one of the extra trainsets that run the holiday extras on the Cascades service. The set I rode consisted of 2 Amfleet coaches and a Horizon biz/cafe car that had been taken from the Hiawatha service (wall posters and seat-back literature all Milwaukee focused). Speaking as someone who rides frequently on the Talgos and has a chance to compare Talgos, Superliners, Cali cars and Amfleets, I can assure you that the vast majority of the Hiawatha riders are going to love the new Talgos when they arrive. The tilt technology may not be needed on the route and the process of acquiring the trains may not have been fully above board, but from the day those trains arrive, the riders will be in love with them.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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I love the refurbished Talgos. Including the bathrooms and doors between cars. They are like ACELA without the high prices; and IMO even more comfortable. Anyone who rides them in the NW will understand what public transportation is all about and will support funding for it.
I hear they now have Wi-Fi too.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Presumably by now, anyone here who will have occasion to do so, has reviewed July TRAINS.
In the lead News article, Bob Johnston has essentially declared that the Wisconsin Talgos are not going to see revenue service as Chil-Milw Hiawathas.
Lest they become monuments to waste, snd one can be sure the Walker administration would love to make them just that, I can only hope they will see revenue service somewhere - and hopefully where their Pendulum technology will result in a noticeable schedule improvement such as was realized on the Seattle-Portland Cascades.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Here's a short video featuring the WI Talgo. Production quality is very poor, but you get to see something that very few WI residents will ever see--the interior of a Talgo train.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Agree; the production quality (appears to be raw video outtake) leaves much to be desired. It would be interesting to know what the Spaniard Talgo official, speaking English as a second language, had to say about the likelihood of those trains entering revenue service. Again as I noted, Bob Johnston of TRAINS reports their chance of doing so CHI-MKE is "zilch".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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For more than a year, Talgo CEO Antonio Perez has held his tongue as detractors dumped on his company and its trains, until finally he could take no more. Perez cannot believe the State of Wisconsin has chosen to terminate two contracts it signed with Talgo nearly three years ago. His company has put almost three years of work into a project to build and maintain trains in a warehouse in Milwaukee’s 30th Street Corridor, the long-dormant industrial area Gov. Scott Walker has pledged to help revive with a new, $100 million dollar plan. Yet his administration will kill the only viable company now operating there, Talgo.
“What message does this send to other businesses?” Perez asks. “They should be careful of doing business here because Gov Walker does not keep his word. It’s like we’re talking about a Third World country, where people don’t have respect for their contracts.”
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I wonder if the Talgo saga has, in fact, dissuaded other business ventures from considering locating in Milwaukee..... or elsewhere in Wisconsin?
I wonder also whether there is any way of gauging this minus political spin?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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It would be interesting to hear what Tommy Thompson has to say about this, since he is currently running for the US Senate.
If you look at the photos in the link, the Talgo engines don't look quite as ugly after they are painted.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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The paint helps........ sort of like lipstick on a goose.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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“What message does this send to other businesses?” Perez asks. “They should be careful of doing business here because Gov Walker does not keep his word. It’s like we’re talking about a Third World country, where people don’t have respect for their contracts.”
Given the normal nature adn enforcability of contracts in this country, I would regard statements as the above as being insulting. It makes me suspect that he did not have a contract that was on the up and up in the first place.
If making public blusters is the way Mr. Perez feels about it and all he can expect to be able to do about it, all I can say is, Don't let the door bang your butt on your way out.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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I would think Talgo's best interests would be served if they simply bought those sets from Wisconsin, as there does not appear to be a North American buyer at hand.
If those trains remain in the hands of Wisconsin, they will simply be trotted pout for a "show trial" as "monuments to waste".. Talgo will in the process become guilty by association, and could forget about any future business in North America.
If there are photo ops of the equipment being loaded aboard a vessel as deck cargo at Milwaukee (give the local longshoremen the work), at least Talgo would be making the best of a bad situation. This is not to say it is a case of faulty designed equipment (read like the Amtrak SDP-40F and E-60 locomotives of thirty years ago), but rather equipment ordered not suited for the intended route and changing political breezes.
As for them seeing revenue service in Spain; well the government is broke and by adjunct, so is RENFE.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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According to Citizen Dave, if everything had gone according to plan, the HSR line between Madison WI and Chicago would be open and running now.
quote:Had Tom Barrett won the election for governor in 2010, right now, June 2013, would have seen the opening of Madison's high-speed rail station, connecting us to Milwaukee and Chicago immediately and the Twin Cities eventually.
Citizen Dave is actually Dave Cieslewicz, former mayor of Madison WI and, I presume, a Democrat. The article is clearly a partisan hit-piece and there are some obvious inaccuracies or exaggerations in the article:
quote: They (the Talgo trains) are the most sophisticated in the world.
Has it really been 4 years since this story broke?
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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The latest news in the Talgo vs. Scott Walker fiasco has broken. Yes, the Wisconsin Talgos will be moving soon to Beech Grove. It's costing $29,000 a month to store the trains in Milwaukee so, according to the spokesperson for Talgo:
quote:"The reason for the move is to mitigate Talgo's damages in light of the State of Wisconsin's breach of the purchase contract for the trains,"
Also, another interesting quote from the article:
quote:The company also said it expects its $65.9 million claim against the State of Wisconsin, which included costs of unanticipated long-term storage, to fall flat. This would allow Talgo to pursue the damages in court,
The end is nowhere in sight.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Scott Walker brought that state back from the brink. He endured multiple death threats, and literally had thousands upon thousands of paid union thugs bused in to protest inside the state capital. He did exactly what he said he would do if elected. No surprises----he told everyone in advance, and he stuck to his guns under enormous pressure. The result is that Wisconsin is looking VERY good right now. I'm sorry they didn't get their choo-choo, but other priorities took its place.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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A review of the Reader Comments to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article linked by Mr. Vincent May 14, proved to be insightful and mature. This is especially the case with those made by reader JRWOakCreek (anyone wanna bet that's James Wrinn Editor TRAINS?).
However, those comments to the May 19 article also linked by Mr. Vincent are nothing more than the 'Scottylovers' and 'Scottyhaters' teeing off against one another.
Oh and finally, thanks to an intrepid railfan willing to stay awake all hours, here are the Talgo 'inmates' being transported from one 'facility' to another:
posted
There is a report appearing in the Detroit News that a possible deal between MIDOT and Talgo has been challenged by an Illinois concern, Corridor Capital LLC, that believes the proposal was written in a manner so that there could only be one bidder - namely Talgo:
Lansing — State lawmakers are looking into claims that the Department of Transportation is mistakenly buying passenger rail cars that Wisconsin rejected as the result of a faulty bidding process.
The criticism, aired at a recent Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, came from former U.S. Rep. Joe Schwarz of Battle Creek and a competing firm that argues the state’s bid specifications were so narrow only one company could meet them.
At issue is a pending $58 million Michigan Department of Transportation deal to buy two sets of passenger cars built in Milwaukee by the Spanish firm Talgo and once headed for a now-defunct high-speed rail project in Wisconsin. The cars sit idle because Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker called off his predecessor’s railroad plan.
I would guess this Corridor Capital concern has in mind an opportunity to unload their fleet of ex-ATSF High Level cars.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Has this Corridor Capital group tried to sell their ex-ATSF cars back to Amtrak to augment the long distance fleet?
Posts: 37 | From: LAKEWOOD, OHIO | Registered: Jan 2006
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As illustrated by this editorial, and the comments at the page, the rejection of funding in Wisconsin still resonates: Walker's train gaffe continues to resonate
-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr. CG, allow me an off topic comment yet quite relevant to your Mark Twain signature quotation and for that matter your neck of the woods.
Last month, I had occasion to travel to Madison for a business dinner, but before that, I visited with the 20 year old daughter of neighbors. I figured, 'oh well, I'll break the law with her; surely she knows somewhere they don't look too closely at ID's'.
However on meeting up, she shared with me that so long as a college age person regardless of the 'magic number' is with someone who could pass for a parent, they could lawfully have a drink.
When we were sitting at an outdoor bar facing the Capitol and at which she was served without comment, some kid she knew stopped to say Hi; I simply said 'I'm Molly's grandfather' (I'm almost as old as her real maternal).
Point to this anecdote is simply that had I not has reason to be 'on the ground' in Madison with a college student, I would have never known of this local law, which I personally think is quite reasonable and appropriate.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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While nothing to do with the Talgos, 'Scottylovers' such as Mr. CG and Ms. McFarland will certainly enjoy (and just as much as the Scottylovers of the other stripe such as the 'Smith Brothers' will not) this front page piece in The Times that was reported by their Chicago Bureau chief - hardly some 'rip n' read' from a wire service:
CHICAGO — Prosecutors in Wisconsin assert that Gov. Scott Walker was part of an elaborate effort to illegally coordinate fund-raising and spending between his campaign and conservative groups during efforts to recall him and several state senators two years ago, according to court filings unsealed Thursday.
The allegations by five county district attorneys, released as part of a federal lawsuit over the investigation into Mr. Walker, suggest that some of the governor’s top campaign aides directed the political spending of the outside groups, most of them nonprofits, and in effect controlled some of them.
The documents made public on Thursday threatened to cloud the political prospects of Mr. Walker, who is seeking election to a second term this fall and is mentioned as a possible Republican presidential candidate in 2016. They provided a rare view of the inner workings of a far-flung network of conservative nonprofit groups that have come to play a decisive role in national and state elections, secretly moving hundreds of millions of dollars into campaigns by avoiding traditional political action committees, which typically face tougher disclosure requirements
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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