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I should have set up a pitchfork concession down in Orlando for this; pitchforks (and brains)are all these Tea Party types are missing. Some of the "safety concerns", like what happens when rails heat up to 90 degrees, are truly laughable.
posted
These people need to figure out that they are being used. We are dealing with an issue that should not have any liberal/conservative political connotation at all. The anti-rail people are propogandaizing this issue as a liberal/conservative issue and using these people much the same way that the NIMBY people use environmentalism as a way to stop things they don't like.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
You've got it backwards, George. The political right in this country believes it gets traction by being against ANYTHING that might involve expending government funds regardless of whether it can improve our lot or not, witness health care, environmentalism, public transportation, etc. They are using any issue that comes up to further their political agenda in this way; that character pushing the railcar just wants to get elected.
Reminds me of the line in Marlon Brando's "The Wild One". "What are you rebelling against?" asks someone. "What've you got?" was his reply.
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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Ocala Mike: To respond to that one would get into a political discussion that I feel we should avoid. For that matter, I feet is what wsa done in your original post. Can we just drop this whole thread. Recongize that there is such a thing as reasonable and intelligent people that disagree with your take on thnigs.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ocala Mike: Some of the "safety concerns", like what happens when rails heat up to 90 degrees, are truly laughable.
Indeed, perhaps they ought to read up on what the rest of the world does in terms of rail expansion joints in extremes of temperature - even on high speed lines where track geometry and vertical track stiffness could raise issues.
Just because Florida is apparently an "auto-loving state" does not mean it has to remain that way. "We've always done it that way so we'll continue to do so" is one of the weakest arguments in my book.
Having said that, "US$billions" does sound rather extravagant for what is a somewhat flat state and only 61 miles of route, some of it pre-existing.
One final word: the photographer of the first picture is standing on one of two main line tracks (speed at least 40mph - George? Just south of Church Street) to take that picture, with a perfectly good footpath in view, a somewhat safer position, and most definitely not from a grade crossing. I bet the photographer wasm't in his hi-vis either. And they wonder why people get hit by trains.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The is a certain irony of the adopted name "tea party" as it relates to conservative values. The Boston Tea Party was an act of vandalism committed against the world's largest corporation, which enjoyed tax advantages not available to those less powerful. Today, such vandalism might be suspected to be the work of left wing terrorists.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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The money sounds high. Not sure the opponents are kicking around real numbers. What none of these characters are saying is that CSX as part of the deal agreed to spend the money they got fixing up some of their other lines in the state. Makes sense for all concerned, but is somewhat complex to explain in one paragraph.
AS to auto-loving: Point of fact, just because one has always run around in a car does not mean that they always can. Considering the high proportion of Yankee retirees in Florida, there are a lot of people in the area that either don't drive any more even though they used to, or should not be driving beyond a trip to the nearest grocery and drug store.
The guy's arguemetns about the rail at high temperatures is simply the silly spouting of the ignorant. Chances are the current track through town is in welded rail already. As to rail expansion joints: There is normally one simple rule in the US sytems: 1. Don't use them. If in doubt, go back and read rule one. Given good metallurgy and welds, you will not get pull-aparts even with a 100 degree F (that is 56 degrees C, Geoff) temperature change. We normally set the rail so that it is in tension most of the time, so buckling is fairly rare. (Yes, that was the cause of the Auto Train derailment, but there were several aggravating factors there, also.)
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by smitty195: I'd like to exercise my right to remain silent.
Understood perfectly! I imagine the other Smith brother (from the Republic of Texas, better known as Baja Oklahoma) is also pretty quiet tonight given the results of a certain football game that just ended in your state.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: As to rail expansion joints: There is normally one simple rule in the US sytems: 1. Don't use them. If in doubt, go back and read rule one. Given good metallurgy and welds, you will not get pull-aparts even with a 100 degree F (that is 56 degrees C, Geoff) temperature change. We normally set the rail so that it is in tension most of the time, so buckling is fairly rare. (Yes, that was the cause of the Auto Train derailment, but there were several aggravating factors there, also.)
38 degrees Celcius! If I understand correctly, we only use expansion joints on transitional areas, such as embankment to bridge span - not as much as I might have implied. Yes, we use tension at the median temperature as well and the ballast should be keeping the track in place (wasn't this one of the factors in the AT derailment?). We're currently having temperatures below freezing yet no broken rails that I know of, and in summer we can get in the high 90s (F). Only if it gets much above that, which is pretty rare, do they start putting blanket speed restrictions down. Sagging overhead wires can be a problem too, even with the balancing weights.
Florida doesn't have the temperature range that other parts of the country see so, again, that argument is pretty weak.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Discretionary spending in the US, and Amtrak is discretionary spending, is being outstripped by entitled spending.
I'm conservative, but not of the tea-party ilk. Even so, the reality is our Chinese bankers own us.
There are things the Nation is supposed to do, things that neither the States nor industry can do.
Those things come under this portion of the preamble: "Establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, ... , and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity..."
Problem is, CONGRESS (and too many Administrations) have focused on "promote the general welfare" ... the key being GENERAL ... the whole ... not the individuals.
Yeah, if Amtrak had to be thrown under the budgetary bus as part of truly getting our national economic house in order,... I might have to say yes.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ocala, do you seriously "think" the liberal bastillion of the University of Texas, loosing a football game, would have any effect on me???
And I do understand why you would denigrate anyone that is protesting the insane spending that our current Congress is engaged in.
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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Sorry, Mike, I forgot about Austin being the West Berlin of the Lone Star State. We have Gainesville, and you have Austin.
As far as "insane" goes, well, keep staring at that picture of Butler going against the railcar. I don't denigrate rational protest, it's the other kind that irks me.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Geoff: Given good metallurgy and welds, you will not get pull-aparts even with a 100 degree F (that is 56 degrees C
George, you're almost never wrong in technical issues, but I think you're off here-- 56 C. has got to be more than 100 F-- I think it's really around 131-132 F. Just an observation-- they call Alabama the Crimson Tide, they call me Deacon Blue- From the old Steely Dan song-- what a game at the Rose Bowl. Even though the Longhorn fans seemed to far outnumber the 'Tide fans...it was pretty quiet there near the end. Still, wonder if the outcome would have been different, if Colt McCoy hadn't been sent to the Infirmary so early?? Imagine the pressure on that back-up QB for the 'Horns! Can't fault him, for giving it his best. Guess Bear Bryant's happy too... Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ocala Mike: 56 degrees C does = 132.8 degrees F as a raw statement of temperature. (F=9/5 C + 32)
BUT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT A TEMPERATURE CHANGE OF 56 DEGREES C, WHICH WOULD CORRESPOND TO A TEMPERATURE CHANGE OF EXACTLY 100.8 DEGREES F.
Thanks Mike- and sorry George! I'm standing corrected! Didn't read the post as it should have been read. But I stand behind my football observations! Please don't ban me, guys--! =(^o^)=
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Geoff: Given good metallurgy and welds, you will not get pull-aparts even with a 100 degree F (that is 56 degrees C
George, you're almost never wrong in technical issues, but I think you're off here-- 56 C. has got to be more than 100 F-- I think it's really around 131-132 F. Just an observation-- they call Alabama the Crimson Tide, they call me Deacon Blue- From the old Steely Dan song-- what a game at the Rose Bowl. Even though the Longhorn fans seemed to far outnumber the 'Tide fans...it was pretty quiet there near the end. Still, wonder if the outcome would have been different, if Colt McCoy hadn't been sent to the Infirmary so early?? Imagine the pressure on that back-up QB for the 'Horns! Can't fault him, for giving it his best. Guess Bear Bryant's happy too...
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I calculated 133 deg. Fahrenheit for 56 deg. Celsius. Any easy way to convert Celsius to Farenheit is to (1) double the Celsius temp; (2) subtract 1/10th of the answer from step (1); then add 32.
As an amateur radio operator, I will often get a temp, for the operator on the other end, in Celsius, not Fahrenheit. As a means to get a rough idea of what the Celsius temp would be in Fahrenheit, I remember: (Celcius to Farenheit) "30 is hot, 20 is nice, 10 is cool, zero is ice".
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: These people need to figure out that they are being used. We are dealing with an issue that should not have any liberal/conservative political connotation at all. The anti-rail people are propogandaizing this issue as a liberal/conservative issue and using these people much the same way that the NIMBY people use environmentalism as a way to stop things they don't like.
I second Mr. Harris' sentiments regarding this topic. Issues like this should not be either left or right.
-------------------- "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one corner of the Earth all one's life." Posts: 506 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Geoff: Given good metallurgy and welds, you will not get pull-aparts even with a 100 degree F (that is 56 degrees C
George, you're almost never wrong in technical issues, but I think you're off here-- 56 C. has got to be more than 100 F-- I think it's really around 131-132 F. Just an observation-- they call Alabama the Crimson Tide, they call me Deacon Blue- From the old Steely Dan song-- what a game at the Rose Bowl. Even though the Longhorn fans seemed to far outnumber the 'Tide fans...it was pretty quiet there near the end. Still, wonder if the outcome would have been different, if Colt McCoy hadn't been sent to the Infirmary so early?? Imagine the pressure on that back-up QB for the 'Horns! Can't fault him, for giving it his best. Guess Bear Bryant's happy too...
**************************************
I calculated 133 deg. Fahrenheit for 56 deg. Celsius. Any easy way to convert Celsius to Farenheit is to (1) double the Celsius temp; (2) subtract 1/10th of the answer from step (1); then add 32.
As an amateur radio operator, I will often get a temp, for the operator on the other end, in Celsius, not Fahrenheit. As a means to get a rough idea of what the Celsius temp would be in Fahrenheit, I remember: (Celcius to Farenheit) "30 is hot, 20 is nice, 10 is cool, zero is ice".
Richard
Yukon:
Go up and read Ocala Mike's and Railroad Bob's posts. I was talking temperature range of 100 degrees F, not a top temperature of 100 degrees F. Generally, in a place like Florida the rail temperature will get well above the air temperatue due to solar heating. So I was thinking terms of say 20F to 120F, which is probably a little too small, but then I was only doing round numbers, not engineering analysis.
120F - 20F = 100F difference
If I did it in degrees C, it would be:
49C - -7C = 56C
Carrying this calculation beyond the full degree gives a finesse the given information does not warrant.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Apologies George, I also did not notice the "range" keyword which, upon re-reading, is clear.
FWIW I've since learnt that UK rails are stretched to a rail temperature of 28C, with the average UK air temperature reaching the same figure only a few days a year. Note [to others] that air temperature does not equal rail temperature.
Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Geoff Mayo:One final word: the photographer of the first picture is standing on one of two main line tracks (speed at least 40mph - George? [/QB]
Missed this question earlier. I have no ETT recent or old for this area, so I have no idea of what the allowed speed limit is at this particular location. I think the line speed otherwise unrestricted is 79 mph, but am reasonably certain that it would less here.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
The inclusive photo within The Ledger report was taken at a nowadays rundown display of equipment at Church Street Station - an entertainment complex located in Downtown Orlando.
Mr. Mayo, you have reported here that you have been there in the past.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The question Geoff Mayo raises, Gil, is where exactly was the PHOTOGRAPHER who took the picture standing. Geoff opines that he had to be standing on main-line trackage to get that shot, a rather unsafe location (not to mention the trespassing angle).
Also, it's ironic that the railcar that the politician is having a symbolic "encounter" with is clearly marked "private property". I would have thought those of his political bent respected private property.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
As I recall the lay of the land, I don't think the photographer was on the ACL main line, but he could have been.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
If that's the ACL mainline, Amtrak trains are in trouble. I do believe that is on a siding (I suspect the roadmaster has long since pulled any connecting switch) for the defunct Church street operation.
According to a 1999 ETT, the double track through the city is from about MP A786 (close to Winter Park) through A792. Passenger speeds are restricted to 25 or 40 MPH in various segments.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Go up and read Ocala Mike's and Railroad Bob's posts. I was talking temperature range of 100 degrees F, not a top temperature of 100 degrees F. Generally, in a place like Florida the rail temperature will get well above the air temperatue due to solar heating. So I was thinking terms of say 20F to 120F, which is probably a little too small, but then I was only doing round numbers, not engineering analysis.
120F - 20F = 100F difference
If I did it in degrees C, it would be:
49C - -7C = 56C
Carrying this calculation beyond the full degree gives a finesse the given information does not warrant. [/QB][/QUOTE] ***************************************
My apologies, George. I did not read, correctly, and did not realize your were talking about a 120F to 20F difference.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr. Mayo, you have reported here that you have been there in the past.
Indeed I was, parking in the garage behind the one in view, and walking along the (safer) footpath behind the train. I'm not sure the footpath was public: it ended and we had to hop over the shrubbery to continue north to Church Street, but there were no "private property" signs on the path itself, nor did anybody give us a second look (except when we asked what happened to the shopping and entertainment: mostly gone elsewhere).
quote:Originally posted by Ocala Mike: The question Geoff Mayo raises, Gil, is where exactly was the PHOTOGRAPHER who took the picture standing. Geoff opines that he had to be standing on main-line trackage to get that shot, a rather unsafe location (not to mention the trespassing angle).
That's correct, as to my question. This Aerial map should hopefully show what I mean.
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: As I recall the lay of the land, I don't think the photographer was on the ACL main line, but he could have been.
As there is no visible distortion in the photo I would hazard a guess that the photographer would have needed to be 6-8 feet away from the subject which would place him in the vicinity of the right hand running rail of the right hand track.
quote:Originally posted by palmland: If that's the ACL mainline, Amtrak trains are in trouble. I do believe that is on a siding (I suspect the roadmaster has long since pulled any connecting switch) for the defunct Church street operation.
It is indeed on a separate track, and I think you're right: the aerial photo shows the track fading away before the next grade crossing south. I vaguely remember chocks under some of the wheels of the train as well.
quote:Originally posted by palmland: According to a 1999 ETT, the double track through the city is from about MP A786 (close to Winter Park) through A792. Passenger speeds are restricted to 25 or 40 MPH in various segments.
I stood and watched an Amtrak train head north through there: he was certainly doing more than 25 but probably less than 40; could have been accelerating.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
To bad the US Government forgot that when they got into the railroad business they had just completed all those wonderful rails for there cheif competitors, the rails where called inter-states!
Posts: 516 | From: New Haven, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by 4021North: "Rail is the most expensive way to move people." --Sun Rail protester
"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”." --Adolf Hitler
Mr. 4021, I wonder if you are aware that there have been a few recent postings added to your topic over at Advocacy.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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