posted
An old Santa Fe PR guy (80 years old) takes the Southwest Chief for the first time and compares it to the Super Chief of the AT&SF's heyday. His conclusion might surprise you.
(The photograph puzzles me. Says it's a roomette, but that window seems awfully small.)
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Concerned that the train replacing the Super Chief would not live up to Super Chief standards, Santa Fe Railway's management declined to let Amtrak use the name. Hence the Southwest Chief was born. So now, after nearly 40 years have gone by, my wife and I decided to find out whether that prejudicial thinking turned out to be true.
This statement is not the whole truth. When joining amtrak, Santa Fe ceded all associated goodwill, including train names, to Amtrak. Amtrak was free to use, and did so from A-Day until roundly June 1974, the name Super Chief. At that time, because the Amtrak service was quite substandard to that offered by "the real deal" (been there done that), Santa Fe ASKED Amtrak not to use the name any further. Amtrak obliged, but was not under any legal obligation to do so (there are other battles to fight). Amtrak adopted the name Southwest Limited. That name prevailed until Superliner equipment was assigned during 1980 and at that time, the name Southwest Chief was adopted.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
We have, without a doubt, the most accomplished "nit picker". But like ACLU in civil affairs, it's good to have some one to keep us honest in rail affairs. Thank you Mr. Norman. Best regards, Rodger
Posts: 112 | From: Merrimac, MA | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I don't get the itch for transcontinental rail travel as often as I once did (perhaps once every 18 months or so now) BUT I could not have stayed away from it for nearly 40 years as this writer did.
I wonder what his reaction would have been had his train been 8 hours late and the dining car staff was reduced to serving beef stew and chicken nuggets in an unexpected meal sitting?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Thank you Mr. Norman for correcting the "Super Chief" story. I tell it once in a while and I like to have my facts straight. It is the train I take most often, and I always want to call it the Super Chief because it has a more exotic and adventerous sound to it.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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posted
A bit off the subject, but there was a statement, in the book "Waiting On A Train", that the Santa Fe Super Chief was an all sleeper train. Was that always the case?
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by yukon11: A bit off the subject, but there was a statement, in the book "Waiting On A Train", that the Santa Fe Super Chief was an all sleeper train. Was that always the case?
Richard
Coaches were added during the 1960's......but initially this was accomplished by combining the coach only 'El Capitan' (which used Santa Fe's Hi-level coaches) with the 'Super Chief'.
For a time this combined train was referred to by both names with coach passengers booked on the El Cap and sleeper passengers booked on the Chief. By the late 1960's the pretense had been dropped and the El Cap name was pretty much a memory.
Interestingly, the Illinois Central employed this same tactic when in the 1960's they combined the coaches only 'Magnolia Star' with the all-pullman 'Panama Limited'.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I guess I rode what may have been one of the last all Pullman Super Chiefs on the way to my wedding. Thanks to the holidays, the Jan 1, 1969 departure from Dearborn was all sleeper with the all coach section to follow.
I still need to put on DVD my Super-8 movies of that trip including hanging out the vestibule doors to catch that great consist running by the semaphores in the high plains. In the dome lounge we listened to the astounding news that Joe Namath and the Jets of that upstart AFL had beaten the beloved Colts. ....And the wedding and marriage have worked out well.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I am personally acquainted with the author, having worked for Santa Fe 35 years. He was a graet PR man along with his boss Bill Burk.
On the Super Chief he could have had a drawing room to avoid the upper berth, or a roomette. But the meals by Fred Harvey are -by far - the greatest distinguishing difference between the SW Chief and the Super Chief. Only the finest of Santa Fe/Fred Harvey dining car personel were assigned to the Super Chief. Talk about personal service, I have ridden many name trains from that era - Panama Limited - Capital Limited - Portland Rose - California Zephyr and none were as good as the Super Chief, although they were very, very good.
Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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After the combination, Santa Fe's national advertising referred to the Super as "all-Pullman service" (as distinct from 'all-Pullman train').
Interesting to leard that any Super Chief Dining Car job was partly excepted (PADO on your property as I recall, Mr. China).
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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As for the small window in the photo (says its a roomette) I'd guess that it is the family room, or maybe the accessible room. Both are downstairs and both only have a single pane window...but on both sides of the train as the rooms are full width. It appears to be a Superliner room to me.
And the mention of coaches on the Super Chief is just lacking in some details, as many have already mentioned. I could go into very specific and detailed info, but I wanted to cut it back as it would be one heck of a large write up just to explain coaches on the Super Chief. This is as best I could do to simplify it:
In 1958, the consists of the Super Chief and El Capitan were combined.
The coach section used the El Capitan Hi-Level cars and was at the front of the train.
The Super Chief consist was at the rear of the train and used single level cars.
There was a Step Up Hi-Level coach (similar to an Amtrak Superliner II Transition Dorm) that connected to the single level Super Chief consist that made it possible to walk between the two consists. Actually there would be two Step Up cars in the consist as one was up front connecting to the single level dorm and head end baggage cars. However from what I have heard from people who took the train, there was either a sign or closed door that restricted the coach passengers from entering the Super Chief cars.
To my knowledge and looking over many references, the combined train never used single level coaches on the Super Chief portion.
Both sections had their own separate dining cars (Hi-Level 650 series for the coach section) and 600 series diner for the Super Chief.
In peak travel periods it was not uncommon for the Hi-Level coach section to be run as a separate second section of the train. So when this happened, it was like having the El Capitan and Super Chief run as separate trains.
When Amtrak took over Santa Fe passenger trains in 1971, the Super Chief/El Capitan consist remained pretty much unchanged for the first few years. Later Amtrak wanted to cut operating costs by eliminating or cutting back on the duplicative diners. This is when the Santa Fe took back the right to the Chief name, so the Amtrak Super Chief became the Southwest Limited. It wasn't until the Southwest Limited got a full Superliner consist and a relaunch in 1985 when the Chief name was officially brought back for the Southwest Chief.
The consist and overall service has surprisingly remained roughly the same since new Southwest Chief name was adopted and the official 1985 relaunch.
-------------------- Matt Visit gallery for photos of our train layouts Posts: 579 | From: San Bernardino Subdivison | Registered: Dec 2001
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In summer editions of the Official Guide from the late 1960s (you can find a June 1967 timetable up on my site) I have found references to additional, single-level coaches operated (with a separate diner and lounge) as part of the Super Chief during summer peak travel periods. I have also heard from at least one traveler who still had a ticket stub for a coach ticket on the Super Chief, endorsed "SCC" for Super Chief-Coach.
While it is difficult to speak authoritatively so long after the fact, it appears that this was Santa Fe's solution to the problem of meeting the high demand for coach passenger space during the summers. El Capitan's marketing emphasized its expensive and unique Hi-Level equipment; the downside of this was that the equipment was fully utilized and there were no spares to form a "second section" during peak periods. Santa Fe had plenty of surplus single-level coach equipment in good condition, but passengers expecting the famous Hi-Levels might be disappointed. Thus the coach additions as a separate section of the Super Chief, with a reduced extra fare of $3 as opposed to $5 for El Cap and $7.50 for the Pullman Super.
I don't have detailed operating histories, but I do know that it was common for the Super and El Cap to operate separately as first and second sections during high demand periods. It may be that this coach Super Chief section operated likewise as a third section. On this I defer to anyone who has personal knowledge of the period.
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Super Chief-Coach was the result of having scalped The Chief during the winter of 1967-68. I don't think such lasted much more than season 1968 and likely only to honor transportation that had been booked prior to the Chief going to the Happy Hunting Ground.
Summer 1970 I was actively railfanning and I do not recall any sectioned Chief and Super movements.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Actually, I have several summertime OGs from the 1960s; after thumbing through them I find reference to the Super Chief coach section in 1963 and 1965-1967 (I don't have a summer guide for 1964). However, nothing for 1968 and 1969; it appears that Santa Fe pulled the plug at the same time the Chief was discontinued.
Now that I look back at my History of the ATSF by Bryant Jr. (great book, BTW), it appears that ATSF management threw in the towel after the Post Office contracts were pulled in Sept. 1967. By all reports Santa Fe continued to operate its remaining trains in a first-class manner all the way up to A-day, but it appears that they stopped going "above and beyond" after John S. Reed delivered his "eulogy to the Chiefs" in October 1967.
-------------------- --------Eric H. Bowen
Stop by my website: Streamliner Schedules - Historic timetables of the great trains of the past! Posts: 413 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I do remember John Reed's full page newspaper ad about that time. My girlfriend (wife) couldn't unerstand why I was so distressed about it.
It was clear he hated to do it but had no choice. But the Santa Fe, like the Southern and SCL kept the remaining trains as first class operations to the end.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ehbowen: By all reports Santa Fe continued to operate its remaining trains in a first-class manner all the way up to A-day,..
From one who was privileged to be able to say "Been there done that", I heartily concur.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
My first Amtrak trip was on the Super Chief in September of 1972. At that time the train was still being operated by the Santa Fe under contract to Amtrak. The crew made it clear they were employees of Santa Fe, not Amtrak. The dining car menus confirmed it was a Santa Fe operation. Even the cutlery was S.F. silver-plate, not Amtrak stainless steel. It was indeed a splendid operation.
Posts: 216 | From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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We long time Santa Fe employees shared the sentiments expressed by Mr. Reed. We were proud of Santa Fe's passenger service,yes even those like myself who did not work in train service.
Santa Fe had a long tradition of community envolvement and service of all types was a pride thing with us. We who worked along the passenger main lines were especially motivated to project a possitive image.
Posts: 467 | From: Prescott, AZ USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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