I'm planning a quick trip out west in June to ride some trains. I've only got 5 days/4 nights so an airplane figures into the equation at some point.
I definately plan to ride the Coast Starlight and at least the Columbia River portion of the Empire Builder.
My question - If you, as in my case, had time to ride only either the Empire Builder of Southwest Chief, which would you choose and why?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Empire Builder - more time spent in great scenery. The SWC might be fast but fast is not good for sightseeing. Way off topic but the LGV from Paris to the south of France is as dull as dishwater for the same reason. The speed novelty wears off quickly.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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As these are my 2 favorite trains (they run fast and typically on time) I can easily provide some pros and cons.
We never know when the Chief might stop running through Raton and switch to the transcon. La Junta to Albuquerque is a unique segment of scenery that should be enjoyed while it lasts. Not spectacular but definitely a must see for a train fan. The high desert and variety of terrain makes it a personal favorite for me. There is something about the southwest atmosphere and continuous change that makes this route special. If you have not seen it, please do. CHI-La Junta just so-so.
On the other hand, since June is a time of maximum daylight, and so much of the beautiful scenery is west of Cut Bank and at night, the Builder would be the choice. Eastbound affords more of the Glacier area by daylight. It is awesome. Cut Bank to MSP is not spectacular but interesting for the vastness of it all. Sometimes June storms and cloud formations can be beautiful on the prairie.
A round trip up the Columbia Gorge would be nice, or a round trip to East Glacier and back with a day on the red Jammer bus through Glacier?
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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I believe I would fly to Albuquerque in am of Day 1 (Southwest from Greenville, SC has a morning flight via MDW for $109 that gets you to ALB before noon). Depart ALB that afternoon on the SWC for your first night enroute to LA. Connect same morning to the Starlight for Portland for your second night. In Portland make same day connection to the EB for your third night enroute Essex. After spending the day in Essex (or Whitefish) catch the EB to Seattle for your last night and head for the airport on arrival.
That should let you sample most everything. If you can squeeze out another night, spend it at the Issac Walton recovering from your marathon or start your trip in Chicago so you can see Raton again.
I guess the only downside is that the LA and Portland connections are close, although shown as valid by Amtrak for a June trip. If that is a concern, then I'd skip the SWC and have more time on the EB or a night in Essex. While a trip on SWC is interesting, I think overall the EB is more scenic since you have both the ride through the Rockies as well as the Cascade mountains.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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I'd vote for the Builder, too. Last time I took it, two years ago, its dining car was the only one on Amtrak where all food was prepared aboard, not reheated in convection ovens. Not sure if that still is true.
Palmland's idea is intriguing. And you'd enjoy the Coast Starlight as well as the Chief and Builder.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Both have good scenery; Empire Builder is a better train, but you'll be taking Coast Starlight, also a good train. So I'd pick the one you've taken least. Going in June would be a good time. Ordinarily, you see more scenery on either if you do it eastbound, but still, westbound is more exciting for me, more pioneer-ish to come to the mountains, cross into NM, see the distant mountains in MT . . . if you know what I mean. So in June, scenery will still be observable westbound. But I think you will miss a bit of the Mississippi on the EB westbound, even in June.
Have you been to Santa Fe, David? That is a city very much worth seeing.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Thanks for the comments everyone - still no decision yet but here are some of my thoughts -
I've done every route mentioned in it's entirity so this would be a 'revisiting'
Palmland - one of my options is very close to what you suggest and I've priced flights to ABQ from both Greenville (90 miles away) and Nashville. The Chief has a good deal of padding going into LAX and I feel comfortable with that connection. I'd hate to take a bus-titution instead of #28 out of Portland though.
The drawback is that this misses Raton Pass and as TwinStarRocket points out, that segment is scenic, historically significant, and somewhat at-risk.
Interesting TwinStar that you mention the Red Jammer Buses. Some people dream of running away and joining the circus when everyday life gets too brutal...... I dream of running off to Glacier Park and driving a Red Jammer Bus.
(I used a combination of GI Bill funds, student loans, and money earned driving charter buses to pay my way through graduate school..... nearly twenty years later and I have kept my CDL valid.....just in case!)
Issac Walton - Spent a few nights there with my wife on our honeymoon......then we hopped back on the Builder and spent the rest of the week at a less expensive hotel in Whitefish.
The Empire Builder interests me most from Havre west....... but it's IMPOSSIBLE to book commercial air transportation to Havre. Wolf Point is possible but involves staying over a night before the train arrives and in that case one might as well just board the westbound Builder in Chicago (after a quick flight from GSP) and tough it out on the rough track between Grand Forks and Minot......
Henry - the vastness of Eastern Montana begins to wear on the senses after a full day..... but a really good steak would go a long way towards.....well......towards anything.
Speaking of really good food - Sojourner, the best Mexican meal I have ever had in my life came from a roadside diner in Santa Fe in 1999...... also had a great ride on the scenic railroad down to Lamy on that trip.
Comments still welcome - you never know when the perfect idea will come in and I'll think "How did I not think of that?"
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Mr Palmland's suggestion seems good, but I'd think about staying the night in Oregon instead of Montana to ensure the connection. (Note too that if you try to book ALB you will not get my neck of the woods instead--Albany NY. Code for Albuquerque is ABQ.) You might consider an overnight in Portland itself or in Eugene instead, catching a train (or if it works a lot better, a short Thruway bus) from Eugene to Portland next day in time to catch the EB East out of Portland. I've never been to Eugene but it's supposed to be nice, with the kind of good inexpensive eateries that college students like, and there are some cheap motels not far from the train station.
You'd fly to Albuquerque in time to catch the SW Chief west for night 1 on the train. Then arriving in LA you'd connect to the Coast Starlight north to Eugene or Portland for night 2 on the train and 3 on the ground. Next day (catching early train or bus from Eugene to Portland if need be), you'd take the Empire Builder east for night 4 on the train; I'm thinking you might go to Whitefish if you you prefer it to Essex, though you will need to make sure train station, which closes during the day I think, will keep your luggage till you return from enjoying the town. Anyway, then you could catch the Empire Builder back down the Columbia Gorge to Portland to see it fully & the other way; or you could go to Seattle . The only problem with this itinerary is if the EB is very late, you could miss a plane home same day! I'd never do it; I'd overnight in the last place to ensure connection.
Are there flights from Spokane to NC? Maybe you could just go as far as there, stay much of the day, and fly home from there?
Note that ALB in train abbreviations is not Albuquerque though, it's my neck of the woods. You want ABQ, at least trainwise (I don't know airport abbreviations).
If you want to do the Raton Pass too, I don't think you can do it all in the 5 days you have.
If you want to do the Raton Pass too, I think you need to fly to Chicago and spend one more day than you have.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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I vote for the Builder -- both the Columbia River Gorge and Glacier Park will be traversed during daylight hours going either direction in June.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Flights to/from Spokane (GEG) are possible from the southeast but the timing is awkward, the routing convoluted, and no efficient ground transportation exists between the train station and the airport......
I have an itinerary in mind that would get Raton Pass AND the Columbia River but not Glacier Park.... and an itinerary that travels over Raton Pass is one I would likely start in St. Louis rather than Chicago as I've not yet been to the new Gateway Station there.
But RRRich, at the moment I'm leaning toward Glacier Park simply because I've not been on the larger Empire Builder in a decade....... I did ride the Spokane-Portland portion in 2005..... after flying into Spokane (GEG). I've been over Raton Pass at least three times since I last did the Empire Builder.
Spare time today will be squandered checking various flight options into the computer for comparison shopping.
THIS IS FUN!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Spokane's public transit system can get you from GEG to downtown pretty easily--I've done it. The bus runs every 30 minutes during the day, 60 minutes nights and weekends. The Spokane Amtrak station isn't too far from downtown, but Amtrak's arrival/departure times in Spokane are dead-of-the-night, so you would need to plan for that. Fortunately downtown Spokane is actually a very nice place to idle away a few hours. On my last westbound train trip from Spokane, I watched a late movie at the downtown cineplex, then walked to the train station.
For the Chief, how about catching the train in Kansas City, the westbound departure time is 1045pm?
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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I agree with all the above. I have never taken the SW Chief. It's too bad there no longer is a train link between Trinidad and Denver, to link the Chief with the Zephyr. It is really sad that the Pioneer isn't still running to link Denver with Portland.
What time of year will you be going, David? I like the westbound Builder, in mid summer, because, as you know, you can still see much of the Glacier Park area due to the late sundown. Also, the change in terrain, when you get into the park going west, is spectacular. I once tried to arrange a flight into Have, to board the Builder, but I agree it isn't easy. Keep us informed!
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Thanks for the clarification with Spokane's transit..... I didn't intend to suggest that it wasn't there period (though that's exactly how my earlier post sounds)..... just that it didn't provide much help at the time Amtrak arrives or departs...... but that doesn't rule out the possibility of spending a few hours in downtown Spokane waiting for the train.
One of my options does include boarding the Chief in Kansas City..... but after arriving from St. Louis. Light rail from the airport to downtown makes St. Louis a better jumping on place!
Richard, I'm looking at dates in June but have to squeeze this entirely between obligations at home on June 19th and June 26th.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I've narrowed my plans to one of two possible itineraries - and this is pretty much all about riding the trains..... not so much experiencing the places...
OPTION A -
1st day - Fly Charlotte-Albuquerque Catch Southwest Chief westbound
2nd day - Arrive Los Angeles Catch Coast Starlight northbound
3rd day - Arrive Portland Catch Empire Builder eastbound
4th day - Arrive Havre Catch Empire Builder westbound
5th day - Arrive Portland Fly Portland-Charlotte
PROS - return trip to Portland guards against possible bustitution on tight connection from #14 to #28
CONS - a very late westbound Builder could blow connection to flight home.
BACKUP PLAN - a cheap morning non-stop Southwest flight from Spokane to Portland saves me from an Empire Builder that is 4-10 hours late. Beyond 10 hours late and I'm pretty much shot anyway.
OPTION B -
1st day - Fly Atlanta-Seattle catch Empire Builder eastbound
2nd day - Arrive Havre catch Empire Builder westbound
3rd day - Arrive Portland catch Coast Starlight southbound
4th day - Arrive southern California
5th day - Fly Los Angeles - Atlanta
PROS - Get to Seattle also, safer connection in Portland, overnight layover before flight home thus minimizing risk of missing return flight, better yet.... the flights are both NONSTOPS...
CONS - fewer rail rails......no time on the Chief at all.... gonna need a hotel somewhere in SOCAL.....
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Both look excellent. Is this a one zone Guest Rewards adventure? If not, it works.
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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That connection in Havre is pretty tight--if 8 is late, you'll have to hope that 7 is equally late or you'll have 20+ hours to spend chillin' in Havre. And remember that "Havre" rhymes with "cadaver", probably for good reason.
There also are flights from Spokane to Portland on Alaska/Horizon Air if you need to bail off of a late running Empire Builder.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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That's right Vincent - I would keep tabs on number 7 if 8 is running late..... and turn back at Shelby if neccessary!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leaning strongly toward Option B - Generally safer connections though I'm not wild about not doing anything on the last day but waking up in the hotel and catching an airplane.
Any reader have recent experience with the Metro Plaza Hotel which is within a couple of blocks of LAUPT?
Note that I am not looking for the cheapest possible flophouse..... I am looking for close to a train station, clean and secure, and at a reasonable price.
(Frank - at the risk of sounding 'cheap', $229 per night at the Holiday Inn Express in SBA is above what I would consider 'reasonable'!)
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I've stayed at the Metro Plaza in LA several times. Under $100,which I consider reasonable. Unless the hotel itself and all of it's amenities are the reason for the trip,and there are no other alternatives, anything over $100 just to sleep is a bit pricey for me.
We are taking the Empire Builder in May using AGR and the two zone award..Toledo-Chicago-Portland-LAX.We're leaving from Buffalo,so we're going coach until Toledo. Hope a compassionate sleeping car attendant will let us occupy our sleeper in Cleveland! Arriving at LAX at 9PM our only option is the Metro Plaza.Short walk and safe..and it's close to Phillipes!
Enjoy your trip. I love both routes, but in June the EB is exceptional. The vast prairies of Montana will turn into Glacier National Park and all it's beauty.
Posts: 176 | From: Bloomsburg Pa | Registered: Jul 2000
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I would go above $100 for a room IF the hotel were part of the vacation BUT I have this issue that when I'm paying in the three digits that I want to spend time awake in the hotel getting full value for my dollar.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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David, if you do wind up in the LA area, here is another option. On a west coast trip a couple years ago we spent a couple nights in SBA after a Starlight trip. We then caught a Surfliner to Burbank for our Southwest trip to Raleigh. So we got in a nice train ride before the flight home and enjoyed SBA a whole lot more than LA. The airport is just a short walk from the station and is a very manageable size. We stayed in the Marina Beach motel - a motel in name only. Great place with an outstanding location at a reasonable price.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by graynt: We are taking the Empire Builder in May using AGR and the two zone award..Toledo-Chicago-Portland-LAX. We're leaving from Buffalo,so we're going coach until Toledo. Hope a compassionate sleeping car attendant will let us occupy our sleeper in Cleveland!
Mr. Gray, why not simply book your Sleeper from Buffalo?
Or, whoops, is this some kind of "point chasing" constraint of the Guest Rewards program?
Enquiring mind (attached to a body with 9384 of those points) is "curious".
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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From Buffalo (DePew) would be another zone, i.e., another 15,000 points if doing roomette, more if room. Toledo is the "cusp" city; Zone 1 ends there, Zone 2 starts there (same as Atlanta).
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Palmland - great suggestion and I have looked at options using SWA out of Burbank.
For what I'm trying to do on this trip though, I'm more tempted by an AirTran nonstop flight from LAX-ATL. Gets me back to the eastern time zone three hours sooner and for a smaller fare.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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