posted
Inasmuch as many denizens of this forum love cruising as well as train travel, I'm curious about their reactions to the sinking in the Med. Here's a story from The Times. Overblown? Accurate?
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I've never cruised before (but would LOVE to), and in reading the comments on here and in the other thread, I have to say that I'm surprised about the safety (or lack thereof) drills. I thought that you could not "set sail' until everyone had been briefed and had done the drill at their muster station. I have a sneaky suspicion that this incident will change cruise rules worldwide, and that either new legislation will come out of it, or at minimum, new rules. I have worked in emergency services for my entire life, and I can't imagine what a nightmare it must have been for the passengers. It's impossible for an emergency evacuation to go smoothly if: 1) Nobody is in charge, and 2) People don't know what to do.
Here is a link to a UK Daily Mail article, with lots of pictures and video. It's pretty astounding:
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Love Tubs belong to a past life of mine (now-deceased girlfriend who just "loved" them), but there just seem to be too many incidents of late that have gained media attention to make me wonder 'what's going on". Sure, most don't involve endangerment of life such as this Costa incident, but they could well involve sanitation issues and even being adrift at sea without any Hotel (that's HEP in Amtrakese) power.
As The Times article Mr. Kisor has linked (which was the first thing I read this morning and within ten minutes of the thump on the porch) it's just like the chain of regulation is "cloudy" at best - and just too many "loopholes' through which an accountable party can hide from civil liability and, if warranted, criminal prosecution.
Sorry afficiandoes like Miss Vickie and Mr. Art; you know I love you, but cruising is just something I'm not about to be involved with anymore. Our next meet-up will be on dry land.
Finally, allow me to note I think I've shared enough here over the years to establish I have had a nautical background earlier in this life; this includes seamanship, navigation (including coming too close to once putting my Brother in Law's boat on The Brambles - I think our Brits around here have heard of that. It was a "Gil, give me a course to Lymington using those bearings I just gave you", "Try about 330 Lloyd" "Gil check your chart; you want to put us on The Brambles?". "No Lloyd; how does 295 to the Nun off Southampton then 345 sound?" moment), and competitive racing.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I have been thinking about how to respond to your question Henry.
I primarily sail on Holland America and the deck officers are Dutch or British. I attend all the question and answer sessions with those officers as I am very interested in hearing about their training and experience. I also follow the blog one of them does, Captain Albert, which is full of interesting info about ports, pilots, tides, wind, shallow water, squat and the type of decisions the captain must make in every port and each day at sea.
As a result of these experiences I cannot imagine any of these officers sailing off their planned course for any reason other than passenger and crew safety. The type of personal sight seeing being attributed to the Italian captain is bizarre.
But this accident also brings up some very good points. If your ship is listing 20-90 degrees, how do you navigate about the decks. If you are in your cabin and the floor has become the wall and vice versa, how do you get to the door and out into the corridor, with the same wall, floor switch. And those life boats you so lovingly observed on embarkation are now either under water or resting against a now horizontal side of the ship.
It would be up to the crew to try to maintain order but it would be very difficult. Panic would be very possible, even probable. If my lifeboat is gone who do I push aside to get into another one.
I don't think regulations or even more strict life boat drills will fix things. The only fix for human error caused accidents is the training, education and ethics of the humans involved. I feel comfortable that those factors are present in the officers and crew I have met. I don't plan to sail Costa, that's for sure.
-------------------- Vicki in usually sunny Southern California Posts: 951 | From: Redondo Beach, CA | Registered: Aug 2006
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Funny how the Andrea Doria also involved very "questionable" seamanship. However, no one will really know as opposing parties came to a "agree to disagree but we aint talking" kind of settlement.
Now to address Miss Vickie's immediate; true, the upscale Carnival brands such as Cunard and Holland America have escaped any incidents of late (the Prinsendam was well before Carnival ownership). I'm not sure where Costa is within their pecking order. However, the "K-Mart of the Seas" or otherwise their main Carnival brand has hardly, what with the "Ecstasy" fire immediately after sailing from Miami, the "Splendor" adrift off Mexico, and surely others that "the hush" was put on.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I'm with Vicki on this one. When we are on a cruise I always make every possible attempt to get to know the ship's officers and crew. I attend all of the "Captain's Chats" and am also a subscriber to Captain Albert's blog. This has given me a greater appreciation of the amount of skill and training it takes to move a "hotel at sea" from place to place.
We cruise primarily on Royal Caribbean and Celebrity with occasional cruises on HAL, Princess and Azamara. There seems to be constant training and drills going on. Sometimes passengers are involved, other times not. We have never sailed with out a "Muster Drill" although I believe the regulations say it must be done within 24 hours of sailing. (BTW, I verified with friends who did the HNL-SYD cruise which we had to cancel that, because they sailed at midnight, their drill was held the next morning.)
Curiously, the only time I've felt less than confident with the crew's ability to deal with an emergency was on a U.S. flagged ship -- NCLA (Norwegian Cruise Lines America) "Pride of Hawai'i". By law most of the crew had to be U.S. citizens or "Green Card" holders. Turnover was constant and service and training suffered markedly. They have now gone from three ships to one. "POH", which is a beautiful ship, now sails in the Mediterranean as "Norwegian Jade".
It's interesting that Mr. Norman mentions "Carnival Splendor". I haven't heard much mention in the media of the fact that she is a sister to "Concordia" and the other ships at Costa of that class.
Frank in sunny but cool SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Would someone be so kind as to post a link to Captain Albert's blog? I would really like to read that.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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He is currently on shore leave and not blogging. I get it as a direct e-mail so don't have the url. Vicki? You might also be able to find it on the HAL website. It is company sanctioned and he is sort of the unofficial historian of Holland-America.
Frank in dark and cool SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Thanks for that link to the book about the Andrea Doria/Stockholm, Gil. I read it when it first came out, as well as the book about the Titanic sinking, "A Night to Remember."
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Henry Kisor: Inasmuch as many denizens of this forum love cruising as well as train travel, I'm curious about their reactions to the sinking in the Med. Here's a story from The Times. Overblown? Accurate?
Surprisingly underblown, but one can never be sure of the accuracy. Mind you, the British media have gone overboard with the reporting, no pun intended. What is undisputed by even the (ex) captain is that the ship was way off course - he was a complete and utter idiot.
Yesterday's news of the latest set of bodies found in lifejackets, assembled at their muster station really makes you wonder what went so badly wrong that even they died when they apparently did exactly what they should have done?
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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A crass question put to a survivor by a radio presenter was "has it sunk in yet how lucky you are"? This on the BBC - I give up.
Posts: 211 | From: Norfolk England | Registered: Sep 2007
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My only recent cruise experience was two trips on a small US flagged ship in Alaska and the Caribbean, the Yorktown Clipper (subsequently sold to Cruise West before they went belly up). Rather rigorous safety drills occurred within an hour or so of leaving port. But then a passenger list of around 100 would have been a heck of a lot easier to manage than 4000.
Perhaps that's part of the problem: mass evacuation of that many people would be a huge problem even in the best of circumstances. Are the newer ships just too big?
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Funny how with Holland America's penchant for "recycling" names, the linked "Captain Albert" blog has a history of Prinsendam II - not too much about Prinsendam I:
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Perhaps that's part of the problem: mass evacuation of that many people would be a huge problem even in the best of circumstances. Are the newer ships just too big?
That is indeed a question that is being asked a lot in recent days.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
It is going to be an operation to salvage the Costa vessel - and even when done, the decision may be made to break her up (scrap in railroadese) in place:
Of course, as I noted the other maritime topic around here, the Andrea Doria in all likelihood could have been saved from sinking, but the owners thought best that what is on the bottom of the sea is away from prying eyes and enquiring minds:
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Interesting to me that the first fatality identified in the Costa Concordia tragedy was that of a musician. Brings back memories of when my father, a professional saxophone/clarinet player, got a gig on the Independence back in the early 50's, and sailed from NY to Genoa via Naples, his birth city (as I mentioned in the other thread).
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I'm still hoping that the poor American couple can be found alive...but time seems to be against them. Still, stranger things have happened; such as survivors founds several days after the Japanese disaster. Finding those two seniors alive would be some really good news, in this awful story...
Posts: 588 | From: East San Diego County, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
A most incredible survival story along these lines was that of a young girl passenger on the Andrea Doria who was thought lost in the collision with the Stockholm. After the Stockholm limped into NY harbor, the injured girl was found alive in the crushed bow of the Stockholm!
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Carnival seems to be either very unlucky or very incompetent regarding their emergencies - both the number of them and their handling. When their ship caught fire off Miami they had the passengers on the deck doing exercises, smiling and waving at the helicopters. They said no one was in danger, but they are just not trustworthy. I took a Caribbean cruise with Chandris (a Greek division of Costa), in 1977. They did their pre-announced lifeboat drill at 8AM the next day. I stayed in bed because I don't get up early on vacaiton!
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
what i don't understand,with all the equipment on board eg sonar, why was there no warning singnal to alert the crew. and no crew member was watching the sonar screen for ocean bottom rises? close to shore, maps are detailed and even 1st officers didn't see this? there is also a crew member(can't think of name) that steers these ships through "chanels", where was he? he would know the contour of the ocean.
Posts: 6 | From: pittsburgh | Registered: Jan 2012
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I think the ship was off-course and had deviated from the standard route because the Captain wanted to get close to shore to basically "show off" to his friends. From what I have read, the nautical charts do indeed show the rocks that they ran into, contrary to what the Captain's initial statement was about the charts NOT showing them. I suspect that the accident cause will simply be human error. Not paying attention, deviating from the standard course, violating company policy, and poor seamanship.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
As I read the postings on this site it occurred to me that here we go again. The thread is off the spool. Aren't we lucky to have a moderator who allows such things? It is always interesting to hear different opinions on a variety of subjects.It always amazes me when I consider the differences in age ,gender, location, and background of the forum posters.
Posts: 1577 | From: virginia | Registered: Jun 2005
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I don't believe Chandris has ever had any connection with Costa. It did later became Celebrity Cruises, a part of the Royal Caribbean family. They still use the Greek Letter "X" (Chi for Chandris) as their logo and it is prominently displayed on the funnel of each ship.
Idiat --
Are you thinking of a pilot? There wouldn't have been one on board unless they were nearing a port where they planned to dock or anchor.
Frank in sunny but cool SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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Idat, I doubt that cruise ships have SONAR. It would have been a question of relying on local charts. Furthermore, from what I've read on this incident. The cruise lines have prescribed routes that are entered into the electronic navigation instruments of their ships. If the ship deviates from the entered path, alarm bells go off. So, that means the captain had to shut off the tracking device to permit him to do the "fly-by" of the island without tripping the alarm. But that also means he had no electronic navigation aid to show him where he was.
Posts: 518 | From: Maynard, MA, USA | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by TBlack: Idat, I doubt that cruise ships have SONAR.
????I would have thought sonar would be a basic necessity for all ships of this size, or even considerably smaller.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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We have done four or five bridge tours and I honestly don't remember SONAR ever being mentioned. Most navigation today is satellite based. Advanced RADAR systems are also used along with old fashioned paper charts. And don't expect a nice mahogany ship's wheel. Most ship's movements are controlled by a small joystick.
And now we are hearing that after the collision the Captain was waiting with a lady to have his dinner served while the cooks were dealing with things falling off the shelves!
Frank in overcast and cool SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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From "The Wit and Wisdom of Winston Churchill" by James C. Humes:
"Late in his life, Sir Winston took a cruise on an Italian ship. A journalist from a New York newspaper approached the former prime minister to ask him why he chose to travel on an Italian line when the Queen Elizabeth under the British flag was available.
Churchill gave the question his consideration and then gravely replied.
'There are three things I like about Italian ships. First, their cuisine, which is unsurpassed. Second, their service, which is quite superb. And then - in time of emergency - there is none of this nonsense about women and children first.'
Posts: 229 | From: Long Beach CA | Registered: Jan 2007
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Good one, cubzo. Now that this thread has gone completely astray, I may as well add to the fun.
Yes, Italian sailors love fine cuisine. It seems that WWII Italian submarines (yes, there were quite a few of them) were built with enormous conning towers that were really more like bridges. It also seems that the commander and his staff liked to eat their meals up there instead of down under the deck with the rest of the crew. The first thing the German Navy made them do was reduce the size of the conning towers on the whole fleet and put an end to that practice. Another change the Germans made was to order Italian sub commanders to cease trying to rescue survivors from their kills at sea. Germans, unlike the kind-hearted Italians, routinely massacred any survivors in the water.
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
I contend that even fifty six years ago, technology was in place to have saved the Andrea Doria, but I think it a safe assumption that had she entered a US Port, the civil seizure would likely been swift.
True, Doria foundered while on international waters, but I think a flotilla of tugboats could have been dispatched in time to stabilize the hull. That having been done, the breach could have been repaired, and the hulk towed to some port within a jurisdiction where it would be safe from a seizure.
You could write some enchanting sea stories about that one - a rouge vessel sailing about the world a step ahead of the law. It would remind me of the movie The Sea Chase.
Even in the less litigious world of my teen-hood (where, back on the rails, New Haven RR trains routinely ran between stations with the traps wide open), and especially, as reported within The Times article I linked, since there were questions regarding Doria's seaworthiness, collision notwithstanding, the most expedient decision was made - let Davey Jones have 'er.
Somehow, I foresee same fate for "Costa Concordia".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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ROME — In Gregorio Maria De Falco, the until recently unknown head of operations at the Port Authority in the Tuscan coastal city of Livorno, Italy found itself not just a national hero, but the anointed foil to Capt. Francesco Schettino, the reckless and apparently cowardly captain of the cruise ship Costa Concordia.
Easily adapting to the national propensity for dualism, Italians have got themselves a hero to play against their antihero, a champion to their villain, as Pierluigi Battista wrote in the Milan newspaper Corriere della Sera on Thursday.
Captain De Falco’s reprimand to Captain Schettino, loosely translated into English as “Get back aboard! Damn it,” has already entered the national lexicon, not to mention the front of T-shirts, and (according to Italian news reports) as a cellphone ringtone.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Yesterday in Miami, I took my morning walk starting from Marriott where I was staying to the causeway accessing Dodge Island. While I was mainly looking to see the progress being made on the tracks to enable the FEC to restore service to Dodge (and otherwise get those "container cowboys" - aggressive drivers transfering same to other transportation facilities such as the FEC yard along the West side of the airport - off Biscayne Blvd), I did note several Love Tubs with "X" on their funnels and in the distance various "airplane tail funnels" of Carnival vessels.
While walking, I met a couple from Columbus OH who "just love" cruising and were sailing that afternoon on the Carnival Liberty. We kind of left with a "well, to each his own, but have a great sailing".
It will be an early Lunch today with Ocala Mike (in Bellview; somewhat South of his namesake) thence over to Sanford (SFA) and Auto Train 52(29).
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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We've never sailed on Carnival but I believe Carnival fans refer to that distinctive design as "the Whale's Tail".
Recently I've become addicted to the FLL webcam ( www.portevergladeswebcam.com ). Especially on weekends it's a constant stream of ship's arriving and departing and the cameras are well positioned and monitored so you get great closeups of the vessels and the "SOB's".
Frank in sunny but cool SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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Met up with GBN for lunch today in Belleview, FL (about an hour or so NW of Sanford). Wished him a nice trip on the AT, and awaiting his report when he arrives in Chicagoland.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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