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Thanks for that link, Smitty. It's good to see that the reason (at least according to the interview) for not operating in Jan/Feb is not the derailment but rather the need to do more marketing. I couldn't agree more. All of us are attuned to anything rail passenger, but how many of us have seen any advertising for his venture?
And this intrigues me: "Amtrak has said no to running Pullman’s cars on the rear of the Chicago-New York Lake Shore Limited because of space concerns in Penn Station. But there is more than one way to get to New York."
A train like his deserves to arrive/depart from magnificent Grand Central but I guess would require a special train from Albany (maybe as part of a connection from his S&NC operation.)
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Gotta ask Mr. Smith; how did you crack Kalmbach's firewall????
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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GBN: All I did was click on the link and it opened. I am a subscriber to that page, however, I am not logged in--I just went in "cold" and it opened.
Are your cookies enabled? It might be a site that requires cookies. Just guessing. If that doesn't work, quit your browser and reopen it and try again. There shouldn't be any problems viewing that page.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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It is no issue with me as I am a TRAINS subscriber.
Incidentially I placed a comment at the piece with reference to Mr. Fowler's suggestion that imtermediate point service should also be considered.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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GBN: I probably don't know about railroad union agreements like you do, however, why would something like that matter? Private Varnish operators handle their own passengers at intermediate stops all the time, using their own staff. Why would it be any different in this situation?
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Smitty, it is the same issue regarding contracting out that confronted Amtrak when they attempted to do such with a Subway franchisee to provide Food & Beverage on NY-Albany trains.
But on the other hand, Amtrak was able to contract out F&B on the Downeaster in that it was a new service. The B&M last ran a passenger train on that Boston-Portland ME route during 1961, and at that time it was Coach only Budd RDC's. There was an overnight train, the State of Maine, that folded during 1960; that did offer Bar and Breakfast service to Sleeping Car passengers using Agreement Pullman Company employees.
It seems as if most of these PV moves are beyond the scope of point to point service such as Mr. Ellis envisions operating. Furthermore, what's in it for Amtrak to press the issue with the ASWC? There are simply other battles to win. Some Union officials could consider that end-to-end represented an acquiescence on the part of the Employees, but that appears carved in stone to the extent it could be considered precedent if any case of such were progressed off the property to a Board under the Act.
As I noted at the TRAINS blog, possibly Amtrak would have no particular issue if the Agreement Employees on their property were agreeable, but I guarantee you they would not be. It would simply be the first step to have Amtrak contract out ALL OBS activities - and not necessarily using Agreement employees.
It's a non-start.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Appears the PRJ website has now added Boston as a destination; however no dates of service.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I wonder how Boston would work as the cars would presumably go on the head end at Albany unless they pay for extra switching. That's not so good for those in the observation. Maybe they will 'make do' with a dome as the feature car.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Always interesting to hear issues regarding service to NY Penn Station. I know one of the plans was to travel east via the Capitol Limited and then connect the PRJ to the Pennsylvanian and on in to NYP. But then westbound, it was to take the route of the Lake Shore Limited. Being that this is not an option, East Coast to Midwest option would be to run to Philly or Boston if NYP is not an option. Again, they could do eastbound into Philly, but westbound on the same route out of Philly to Chicago would require some extra moves in Pittsburgh. Less so if the train operated to Boston. And of course the extra "power" is there to get the train from Albany to Boston via the Lake Shore's Boston section. It's just that the Boston section is not as popular as say the NYP section. And if PRJ operated in/out of Philly, it's a nice mid-point between NYP and Washington DC, requiring a transfer though......and then the Pittsburgh westbound switching issues without the "convenience" of extra trackage in the station. Too bad, as I would have liked to see something equivalent to the former Broadway Limited run between East Coast and Midwest (without the ridiculous 9:30 p.m. departure time).
Personally, I am waiting for Amtrak to sort of ban private car operation in/out of NYP and Sunnyside Yard. I sense there is general contention their overall. And typically the PV Car is positioned in the Newark yard prior to its maiden voyage......(i.e. get it in/out of Sunnyside as soon as possible).
Posts: 337 | Registered: Jun 2003
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It looks like they are live and ready to roll starting 29 March, bi-weekly turns to N'Awlins.
That implies a single consist set in service. Adirdondack Club: 3 S type DBR, 1 Master Room Baton Rouge nee Tallahasse: 11 DBR, mix 4 post-war BC-BL and 7 S-Type with sofas. Chebanse nee Caparra: 10-6, 8 Roomettes in use as crew dorm space. Colorado Pine: 6 roomtettes, 4 DBR, 6 sections. Again, the roomettes appear to be dorm space. North Coast nee 312: Appears to be rebuilt under the dome. When I travelled one of these on 3-4 in 1977, the underdome rooms were Single Bedrooms, for the height. Pontchartrain Club: One of the rebuilt HW cars for the CONO, as I recall. I'll have to go to my library to see what she was originally.
What I see as loading capacity is: 84 revenue beds. 14 Non-revenue beds. 14 Dining Spaces.
Houston, we have a problem.
14 dining spaces implies 6 meal seatings.
Anyone know how they are getting around this? Is there a 36/48 seat diner they've not talked about?
Now, to see if it actually goes, and for how long...
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Colonel, last I knew (and affirmed by a sighting of such this past Sat AM), PRJ's Dining Car is a former ATSF Big Dome (changing hands many times over the past forty years since ATSF sold it to AT).
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Was that Big Dome in service moving/serving etc. when you sighted it this past Saturday or holding in a yard Mr. Norman?
Seems like this PRJ venture has some tenacity. I wonder if that will translate to longevity?
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Once upon a time yes, but I'm simply not railfan enough anymore to camp out on Roosevelt Road to watch the departure of 59(29) and observe if any PRJ cars are in the consist.
Of further interest, what are theu smoking on Clinton Street? Now they have added destinations of Mechanicville NY and Saratoga Springs, but of course, no service dates announced.
It appears they are just running flags up the flagpole to see how they fly.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Of further interest, what are theu smoking on Clinton Street? Now they have added destinations of Mechanicville NY and Saratoga Springs, but of course, no service dates announced.
It appears they are just running flags up the flagpole to see how they fly.
Gil, could you please elaborate here? As one who has a certain intimacy with Saratoga (the area and the race track), I'd like to know more. Is this about the Saratoga and North Creek?
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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Mike, at this time there is nothing at their website beyond showing "Mecihvile" and Saratoga as stations. No service dates have been announced.
My "run it up the flagpole" is simply based upon all of these places they have inferred they want to have service - Boston, New York, etc.
Lest we forget, this outfit has only completed one revenue trip to date; the return "sort of ended" at Tuscola with an event that could have been far more serious had it not been for a quick thinking Porter whose surely railfan instincts quite timely kicked in.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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OK, got it. Those stations show up at the PRJ site. Very interesting, and I trust you will keep us posted if anything further shows up there. Maybe racetrain excursions for a day at the races at the Spa this summer? I guess I'll check the website myself, if I can find it.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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Special excursion from Boston North Station to Saratoga Sprgs. Presumably the cities loaded into their system to allow them to sell tickets for that one RT excursion
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Well Mr. Palmland, if they have "visions" that "Pan Am makes the going great" for them, they seem to be keeping that to themselves.
Have you knowledge that they are actually planning such an excusion?
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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palmland, North Station to Saratoga Springs? What routing would that take? The site isn't helpful at all, and there's no "contact us" option that I can find. Not inclined to call the number, and I think, like Gil says, they're into the hemp on Clinton St.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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The routing is Boston & Maine; now part of the Pan Am Rail System. This was the one time route of the Flying Yankee and Minute Man. Today there is regular MBTA service North Station-Fitchburg.
Mechanicville was the interchange with the D&H that allowed the passenger trains access to Albany Union Station, and more importantly freight traffic to be forwarded to Binghamton where a "friendly" interchange could be made with either the ERIE or DL&W.
During the Conrail era, it appeared the "Mechi" interchange was finito and same for the D&H. Where "Agents Routing" controlled, most favorable for NYC Canadian originated traffic if consigned Westward was a D&H "short haul" to NYC's line through Ogdensburg. Post C-Day, "Agent's" (as distinct from "Shipper's" traffic where the shipper has designated the routing) traffic formerly routed D&H to Binghamton now went via Ogdensburg leaving the D&H very much "between the rock...". However, as part of the Conrail breakup, the Canadian Pacific (through its US subsidiary SOO Line) acquired the D&H and as a condition, granted trackage to the NS enabling competitive service in a region which otherwise would be "all CSX" (in VERY round terms, the Conrail breakup gave the Central to CSX and the Pennsy to NS). To provide for competitive access to New England, the NS entered into a marketing arrangement with the B&M and the other roads comprising the Pan Am system.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Looks like palmland is right on. PRJ replied to one of my tweets as follows:
"PullmanRailJourneys @TravelPullman
@ocalamike No plan - just a one off departure for a group. Was easiest to get it online for them to book. Chicago-NewOrleans starts 3/29"
So, maybe someone could clarify, i.e., did this departure already take place or is it scheduled for the group this season?
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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@ocalamike Group departs Boston on April 13th - it is open for public booking but only the train is included."
Still foggy to me; what group? Why Boston to Saratoga on 4/13? Maybe a convention or something?
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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To add to the confusion, the PRJ website presently does not offer any departures from Boston during Apeil - available or sold.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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This should clear it up. Scroll down to the Pan-AM Southern excursion on April 13.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thanks, palmland. Don't know why I couldn't get this from PRJ, but should have known you'd come through. Interesting trip, indeed, especially the Hoosac Tunnel part.
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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As of a few moments ago, for the "reincarnation" run from CHI on Friday March 29, there are Sections (an Upper for $500), Roomettes ($900), and a Master Room ("if you have to ask, you can't afford it") open.
Sorry, but I'll pass; New Orleans is simply a "zero interest" with me and I'd just be on a 530P flight home.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I saw something at another website to the effect that the rail portion of the 4/13 PRJ excursion will terminate at Mechanicville as the CP (old D&H) is balking at letting PRJ run the excursion over any "non-Amtrak" pssenger routes. Anyone know any more about this?
Also, anyone know how the 3/29 CHI - NOLA trip went?
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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Isn't one of those Minnesota Zephyr domes a Southern Pacific homebuilt? It would be interesting to see that in service somewhere and take a ride on it.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Right you are, David. I believe originally built as a Parlor lounge dome. If converted back to its original configuration I can think of a few routes where it would make a nice daytime excursion with all the Pullman amenities - say Denver to Glenwood Springs or even New Orleans to Atlanta.
Mike, I read something too that said CP President Hunter Harrison personally halted the trip over his railroad (can imagine the wrath upon the poor soul that originally ok'd it). Supposedly the train will now use a very interesting alternate routing from Mechanicville - Ex Rutland from Hoosic Jct to Rutland than on the Ethan Allan route to Saratoga Springs. But that may just be railfan talk as some of that routing is on CP also.
I hadn't realized that High Iron Travel is actually another IP subsidiary. Check out the passenger operations they have here.Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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I have no confirmation, one way or the other, if the scheduled PRJ Chi-NO are running.
From the immediate report regarding the Boston Saratoga Spg. excursion, where the CP/D&H will not let them run is just one more "misadventure" that started with Golden Arrow Tours in the 70's, continued through the Amtrak Mail & Express fiasco, and the Ski Train.
Oh well, I guess the "hard core" railfan segment will still show up for a run to "Mechi", but I'm sure the "daisy pickers" had in mind Saratoga.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I agree that the Hoosic, Bennington, Rutland routing still doesn't avoid running on CP trackage to get to Saratoga. Sounds like a bus might be the only option to get to Saratoga and the start of the line to North Creek.
And I am also interested if any of the Chi-NO runs have actually happened, and if so how many passengers were carried.
Posts: 3 | From: New York | Registered: Apr 2013
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Welcome to our forum, Mr. Railfan. I think you will find a good mix of fellow 50 year railfans, including some who worked in the business, younger members with fresh ideas, and those who like to travel and frequently use trains.
I can see one scenario where the special would continue to Saratoga Springs. I believe Amtrak has the right to carry PV on any train. So if the excursion were to get Amtrak agreement to run some of the cars on the Ethan Allan from Rutland, I don't think there is much the CP could do about it.
From reports I have seen, the Pullman Co has in fact run trips on a regular basis starting March 29. However, not surprisingly, the passenger loads have been light and they are using only the minimum number of cars needed to accommodate them. In at least one case, that was just the observation, Pontchartrain Club. On the initial run they had the observation, sleeper, and dome lounge/diner.
Ed Ellis has said there may be occasions when they don't run but he is committed to building up ridership and bookings are looking good for this fall. I hope they succeed.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thanks for the welcome. I probably could say "50 plus" since rainy day entertainment when I lived in West Hartford, CT was going with my mother and brother to watch trains on the New Haven. While at Camp Hale in Colorado, she and my father had developed a great respect for railroading watching the Rio Grande push the heavy wartime traffic over Tennessee Pass.
My long ago memory of West Hartford caused me to question the captioned location of a photo in Trains. I said it had to be West Hartford, VT since it was single track and there were only trees in the background. It really was CT, but the last time I had seen Oakwood Ave. it was double main track with an industrial track on the side and no trees, just factories.
Posts: 3 | From: New York | Registered: Apr 2013
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As of a few moments ago, a visit to the PRJ website shows the only service offered is CHI-NOL; Tu and Fr SB. Who knows if all of these trips will actually operate?
There have been no photos of a PRJ move appearing in TRAINS - and one would think that there is enough daylight running to have generated some. However, I certainly accept Mr. Palmland's earlier report that some - and possibly even all - of the scheduled trips have operated. However, the reports that for some runs, only the Obs. "Pontchartrain Club" operated can hardly be considered encouraging, but then, one would guess this is the anthem on Clinton St.
Before I would consider anything such as dropping some $2K for a 36hr joyride (about what my "one night stand" in Miami ran last month that some here know about - no reason to discuss here at the Forum as it was fly both-ways) comprising PRJ down and fly back (not hanging around NO longer than I must - "wheels up" @ KMSY could not come soon enough), I would want to see some comprehensive trip insurance offered. But then, how many insurers out there would be willing to write such coverage.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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For those who have registered with Facebook, it appears that PRJ will be periodically reporting their consists.
Reviewing another site (I'm not about to sign up for Farcebook just for this or much of any other reason), the consist reported for today NB is "Chebanse", "Colorado Pine", "Scenic View", and "Pontchartrain Club".
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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When they run Colorado Pine, they will sell an open section as "single occupancy." Buy the upper, and the lower.
Now ... do their porters know that when you have a SO section, you get BOTH mattrresses, all the pillows, ad infinitum?
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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PullmanCo, why don't you raise that issue on FB during one of your talks? Anyway, there's a good article in the current Passenger Train Journal about the PRJ operation, focusing on the 3/29 trip from Chicago to New Orleans. The tone of the article suggests that they are pulling out all the stops to recreate the old-time Pullman experience, so I think the answer to your question would be a yes.
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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Also a good article in current issue of Trains. It lists their incredible collection of cars.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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