posted
I know that this isn't a forum for VIA Rail discussion, but perhaps there are folks with special knowledge who can answer this question:
How much advance time does VIA typically give between announcements of train-offs or train cutbacks and the actual event?
I ask because there have been recent stories in the Canadia papers about VIA gearing up to cut trains and departures. One of the trains said to be involved is the Ocean from Montreal to Halifax. My wife and I have tickets for an early September departure and late September return.
Of course, VIA is keeping mum about the subject while the government does its thing.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Comment -- I believe VIA Rail is definitely "fair game" for discussion on this forum, as it always has been. Since there is no specific forum for VIA, we can discusss it here.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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VIA has simply never gained the "traction" - both with political support and public acceptance - that Amtrak has enjoyed.
For an outfit that has cut far more route miles than has Amtrak (and have stayed cut), and that relies on equipment that should be in a museum or its hand me down imported acquisitions that would never be allowed to operate over a US road, it is no wonder additional cuts are being proposed.
But I'm certain Mr. Kisor, if your train is to be discontinued, they will notify you and give you a full refund.
Finally, to our Canadians around here, sorry your experiment in "me too" rail passenger service has not worked out as well as has ours, even if only "lukewarm", with Amtrak. True, I know about VIA's reportedly superior on-board service product, and I accept those reports in view of the last time I traveled on VIA was 1979, at face. But that on-board experience is not what 21st century passenger railroading is all about: its about moving people through densely populated areas economically and efficiently - and at less cost, $$$$ and environment, than the alternative of more highways and airports. It's simply a geographic fact of life that Quebec-Windsor has hardly the same population density as does, roundly the same distance, Portland-Newport News.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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regarding your original question, considering these are just rumors and/or suggestions being made by government, I don't expect to see any such actual action for 6 months to a year if at all. Especially not as soon as Sept. when you are still on fringe of high (tourist) season. JMHO...
Posts: 332 | From: Long Island, NY USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Brief Passage from the material Mr. Kisor immediately notes:
VIA carries 3.8 million of its 4.1 million customers in the Quebec City to Windsor corridor, but that number was down about 12,000 last year, according to its annual report. A VIA spokeswoman said the company does not provide ridership numbers for individual routes within that corridor
It appears that VIA is even more vested in its so-called Corridor than is Amtrak in theirs.
With 300K passengers boarding The Canadian and Ocean (whoops, forgot those going to Senneterre and Churchill) each year (that's 822 a day), it is even harder to justify continuation of those services. Sooner or later, the equipment will no longer be economically justifiable to operate, even though VIA apparently "takes care of their stuff'.
I'm not sure for how far the argument of "it's good for tourism (considerably more of Canada's GNP than is it in the US) and it repatriates some CD$" will go. The only long term solution for VIA LD's is a private sector operator - and who knows how many of those think they can make a "Loonie" at it. This even considers VIA "sky high" fares (Example ALB-449(3JUL)-CHI-5(4)-EMY in Roomette is US$1131 at present; TWO-1(28JUN)-VAC is CD$2057; CD$1.00=US$.97).
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Finally, to our Canadians around here, sorry your experiment in "me too" rail passenger service has not worked out as well as has ours,
Sorry, but it’s worked quite well, continues to do so.........and actually VIA provides a service used by a greater number of Canadian than Amtrak does in the US.
In 2011, VIA carried 4.1 million passengers .......On a per capita basis (the US has about 10 times the population of Canada) to equal that density of usage, Amtrak would have had to carry over 41 million passengers.....or about a quarter more than the 30 million they did carry.
Canada is a huge country...... larger than the US but the majority of the population lies within a couple of hundred miles of the US border......no need for a number of transcontinental LD trains crossing the country. One line east and another west of the corridor suffices. Once the Canadian leaves Toronto, there are no other large population centres until Winnipeg.....a day and a half later.
The Ocean has seen a decrease in usage on the Halifax end due to airline competition (Toronto is 2 hr vs: 24 on the train) But from Moncton > west the Ocean is still well used by those wanting a quick overnight journey into the corridor: students, business people etc and not really a “tourist train”.
GBN.....for someone who hasn’t been on VIA since 1979.......you have to really get out more often! Come experience a ride on the Canadian or Ocean......frequency may be cut but they’re not going anywhere anytime soon!
Posts: 239 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: For an outfit that has cut far more route miles than has Amtrak
No.....Amtrak was “cut” before it turned it first wheel.....overnight April 30/May 1, 1971. After that there wasn’t much left to cut!
Posts: 239 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: For an outfit that has cut far more route miles than has Amtrak
No.....Amtrak was “cut” before it turned it first wheel.....overnight April 30/May 1, 1971. After that there wasn’t much left to cut!
Not much besides the Pioneer, Deset Wind, Floridian, etc. They'll always find something!
the Toronto Star link said most of the train-offs will be Ontario trains on routes also served by GO Transit. Toronto - Niagara Falls and Toronto - Kitchener seem slated for extinction, while The Canadian may be reduced to twice - weekly in the winter off - season. Another site speculates the end of the Chaleur. Considering the number of times VIA has had to bustitute people on that route due to bad trackage, I'm wondering if they aren't doing that out of sheer frustration. At any rate, look for the announcements next month, when the other Crown Corporations, like CBC, will also announce their cuts.
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: .............This even considers VIA "sky high" fares (Example ALB-449(3JUL)-CHI-5(4)-EMY in Roomette is US$1131 at present; TWO-1(28JUN)-VAC is CD$2057; CD$1.00=US$.97).
Come now GBN.....we’re playing with numbers here! .......Quoting a low bucket price on Amtrak but full fare on VIA. Did you ever check out VIA’s “Express Deals” page? I can get a Vancouver > Toronto “Cabin For 1” in September for $514. That’s all meals included for four days + the stainless-steel Dome “Park Car” Observation. A Lower Berth is even cheaper at $401. Or an Upper at $341 and still all meals and domes included!
The "Express Deals" page is up-dated daily....so play around with dates in the reservation systems on both VIA and Amtrak and you will find the deal you want (or don’t want!)
Posts: 239 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I think the fares I noted are "high bucket' on both carriers. '4th of July" (don't you have some kind of holiday up there as well during that window?) is hardly "low bucket' down here.
My Canadian Transcontinental journeys were made during 1965 - back when a one way Winnipeg-Vancouver on either CN or CP was CD$75 in a Roomette - and the existing VIA equipment was 45 years younger (actually, the CN journey was Saskatoon-Vancouver owing to a late GN from Mpls and an Air Canada "catch up' flight in a great for flightseeing Vickers Viscount).
My only real complaint with the CP "Faresaver" plan; the Diner menu items I would have wanted to have - Prime Rib, Lamb Chops, Steak - were all off limits - even for a surcharge (anyone wonder why I shun "prix-fixe" menus at restaurants - they seem to be some kind of "come on" to get you in, then they "sock it to you").
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: To our "bard from Cape Breton".
I think the fares I noted are "high bucket' on both carriers. '4th of July" (don't you have some kind of holiday up there as well during that window?) is hardly "low bucket' down here.
Next week that same ALB-CHI-EMY is showing $1781. so certainly there are higher buckets. As I said play around with dates and you’re going to find the fare you want on either carrier.
No, not from CB but from NS and yes we do have “some kind of holiday”: July 1st.....the 145th Anniversary of our Confederation
Posts: 239 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I do owe this Forum an apology for breaking my long standing rule of not reporting fares for future travel. This exchange is why I have tried to adhere to such in the thirteen years I've been around here.
During my two terms as Moderator "elsewhere" (you all know where), I imposed a rule of no fare reporting for future travel (report a completed trip OK). Unfortunately, new owners of that site have chosen to rescind such (along with bombarding the users with a flood of ads - including popups).
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ghCBNS: No, not from CB but from NS
Castle Bay, Centre Burlington?
Is it that big a secret?
No secret at all and as I said....not from CB (Cape Breton) but from NS (Nova Scotia) My handle CBNS are the reporting marks of the Cape Breton & Central Nova Scotia Railway....a Rail America property that acquired CN’s Hopewell and Sydney Subdivisions in 1993. I’m located near Mile 84 of the Hopewell Sub.
posted
Mr. gh:, OK, so you are somewhere around Truro NS; as if I'm concerned.
I'm surprised you are so in love with VIA in view of that they are about to cut the limited service provided with their European "play toys' that they pass off as North American passenger trains.
O but I forget; VIA has a superb on-board service product (just like Antony said "For Brutus is an honorable man").
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr. gh:, OK, so you are somewhere around Truro NS; as if I'm concerned.
I'm surprised you are so in love with VIA in view of that they are about to cut the limited service provided with their European "play toys' that they pass off as North American passwnger trains.
No, Truro is the junction between CN and the CBNS Railway……I’m 84 miles east…..keep guessing!
You say the last time you were on VIA was 1979?? They were still in their steam-heat era and hadn’t even acquired the LRCs yet (and I look at the LRC now as having been around forever!) So I really don’t think you are in any position to comment on VIA’s current equipment such as their “European play-toys” which you have never been on!
Sure, ask a railfan what cars they prefer and 9 times out of 10 they’re going to say the Budd Stainless-Steel for its Domes and Observations etc….. but the travelling public who the Renaissance Cars were actually acquired for.... do like them. I’ve been on the Rens often and in fact have scheduled trips on the Ocean to be on these cars instead of the Budds……just a much smoother, quieter ride. The Rens are heavy, substantial cars based on a British design which has been around for years, racking up millions of miles in high-speed service between London and Scotland.
I’m not too concerned about the Ocean’s survival. It might be cut back to tri-weekly in the off-season but it will probably around for awhile yet. Just look at your “Sunset Limited” Isn’t it tri-weekly and one of the oldest trains still continuously operating in North America? (along with the Ocean (1904)
Posts: 239 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: O but I forget; VIA has a superb on-board service product (just like Antony said "For Brutus is an honorable man").
Really GBN....what is your problem with VIA??
I’ve been riding Amtrak for years and in fact, an Acela First Class ride from BOS to NYP just last month was one of my best trips ever on Amtrak.
Some of my more memorable Amtrak trips were back in the ‘70s (before I had responsibilities!)….grab a USA Rail Pass and criss-cross the country for two weeks……hop off one train and right onto another!
Posts: 239 | Registered: Feb 2004
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For an outfit that has cut far more route miles than has Amtrak (and have stayed cut), and that relies on equipment that should be in a museum or its hand me down imported acquisitions that would never be allowed to operate over a US road, it is no wonder additional cuts are being proposed.
...
The equipment on the Canadian may very well be old enough to be displayed in a museum, but the 1990-1992 rebuild and the recent refurbishment of the first class cars, Château sleeping cars excepted, gives them a new lease on life. The vintage of the exterior of a railway car or building is not necessarily relevant to the interior. I recently returned from my annual visit to Britain and our favourite hotel was 130 years old.
As for the snide comments about the Renaissance equipment which, incidentally, was new when it arrived in Canada, these cars are (I'm told) Mk3 carriages and have been around for quite a while. Many Canadian railfans - even some who have actually ridden the trains - complain about the riding quality of these cars. On my recent trip in Britain I rode at least half a dozen trains made up of this equipment. Even at the usual track speed of 125 mph the ride was smooth. On one trip we sat over a bogie (truck) enjoying a complimentary first class meal and not a drop of our Sauvignon Blanc came close to splashing out of the glass. When the Renaissance equipment does not ride smoothly I have no doubt it is because of the poor condition of the tracks. On the ship going over we met a retired British Rail civil engineer who travels annually to Canada and loves the Canadian amongst other trips. One of his comments: "VIA trains are very nice but the tracks are rubbish."
Mr Norman, there are millions of rail passengers around the world who safely and comfortably ride trains that may not meet US standards.
Posts: 216 | From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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GEtting this topic back on topic, does anyone have the latest info on the potential VIA cuts to Halifax and Gaspe trains?
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Rumours, rumours and more rumours. That's all there is. VIA's response to enquiries on their Facebook page: "VIA does not respond to rumours." The one rumour that I believe to be the most plausible is that any cuts will be announced when the House of Commons adjourns for the summer. The House adjourned on 21st June, so an announcement may be made at any time.
Posts: 216 | From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Mr. gh:, OK, so you are somewhere around Truro NS; as if I'm concerned.
No, Truro is the junction between CN and the CBNS Railway……I’m 84 miles east…..keep guessing!
Guessing games are over and it's out with a 1960 vintage CN Timetable; Antigonish.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Guessing games are over and it's out with a 1960 vintage CN Timetable; Antigonish.
Right on!......and only to have the trains today that would appear in that timetable!
Three passenger trains a day each way: the overnight mail/sleeper with FPA4 cab units plus RDC Railiners along with several freights. Today......a CB&CNS freight each way at best but we did have VIA’s Bras d’Or passing thru in the early 2000s (seen here with Cape Breton in the background)
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An announcement re "modernization" will be made Wed. at Winnipeg's Union Station. It has been posted elsewhere that employees have been called to meetings in various locations such as Halifax, Montreal, Toronto.
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Thanks, Silver Star. Am sorry the Halifax train cut to 3x a week but am glad to hear the Chaleur survived.
Posts: 2642 | From: upstate New York | Registered: Mar 2004
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Wow, Dr. Spin earned his fee with that one.
That some 1/3rd of the Daily train-miles and 200 jobs are being whacked is pretty well "buried" in that "pile of puff".
"Baghdad Bob" was good at the game; who else could turn an outright rout into a "strategic realignment".
As I recall, "Bob" didn't even make the Deck of Cards. He was captured and simply released - deemed to be nothing other than a paid mouthpiece.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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GBN is absolutely correct: that release is a masterpiece of spin.
As the original poster, however, I'm happy to know that my September round-trip on the Ocean is safe; that train won't be cut back until the end of October.
Odd. My first trip on the Canadian was one of the last on the original CPR route before that train was killed and then resurrected on the CN line. I feel like a jinx.
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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Now we know that when VIA says: "VIA does not respond to rumours" that those rumours are true. Every rumoured cut-back was included in the press release - and even more. VIA employees were given further information, such as a 9% reduction of unionised work force and the closure of some ticket offices at stations which are getting reduced service.
Posts: 216 | From: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Jul 2000
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Sorry to see the Ocean cut to 3/week but ridership is down considerably from just as few years ago. Airline competition is strong on the route especially out of Halifax...2 hrs to Toronto vs. 24 on the train and flying can be a lot cheaper too.
The Canadian has survived on a triweekly schedule for 22 years (though it’s now being cut to 2/week in the winter) and the Chaleur also survives the cuts on its tri-weekly schedule.
It will be interesting to see what the new schedules will be........will the Ocean run on alternative dates to the Chaleur? This would maintain 6/week service along the portion of the route that sees the heaviest ridership.
And I don’t imagine any of the amenities will be cut....... so you might have to adjust your schedule but you’ll probably be able to enjoy a trip on the Ocean or the Canadian for a few years yet in Dome Park Cars and Sleepers.
Posts: 239 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enquiring mind wants to know; while it appears that VIA has the prerogative to change frequencies at their pleasure, have they that same prerogative with regards to discontinuing a route in its entirety?
It could well end up that Kapitachuan Club QC (yup; have alighted and boarded there in this life) will have VIA service after Portage La Prairie MB loses theirs in view of that no cuts of the "remote" services were announced. Those services appear to be the safest within the system.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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One of the more enlightened and mature postings I have read at a discussion forum - topic notwithstanding. This material is posted at a site named Urban Toronto and it relates to Ontario's intent to dissolve the ONTC - operators of the Ontario Northland Railway as well as other transportation and telecommunications assets:
quote:Train service is not a right of passage. People who live in isolated communities enjoy many benefits suchas the closeness of nature, no traffic, a low cost of living, and often a stronger sense of community. There are of course tradeoffs. By choosing to live in such areas you must also accept it's downsides one of which is fewer transportation options. People who live in more remote locations cannot at the same time expect services which are equal to one's in more populated areas. Expecting transportation services similar to heavily populated areas is unreasonable. Life is about compromises, there is no such thing as "the best of both worlds". People in isolated areas have, in part, choosen it due to it's affordability but transportation systems are expensive..........you get what you pay for. Northlands should have been cancelled decades ago.
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The Chaleur may have survived, but currently it is turning at New Carlisle, thus hardy making its full journey by train all the way out to Gaspe. This continues to be severe blow to the line's train service. Bus service is provided between New Carlisle and Gaspe. The Chaleur in particuarly was one of my favorite trains - along with the Skeena.
Also, the debate remains whether the Chaleur will now finally convert over to Renaissance equipent, since a train set will be freed up as a result of the 3 day a week Ocean. A Renaissance equipped long distance train desperately needs a descent lounge car. Hence why the Park Car is added in peak season to the Ocean. Course the Ocean and Chaleur could both run with a Renaissance equipment and a Skyline or Park Car year-round if it wanted VIA so desired.
I am kinda surprised that the Ocean is going to be cutback to 3 days a week year-round, and not just during off-season. VIA can manipulate the numbers all it wants, but the Ocean was pretty sold out or at a pretty descent capacity load throughout the summer months at 6 days a week. And it used to go to 6 days a week with extra cars and a "Touring Class" during holiday seasons.
VIA will be having a lot of "idle equipment" during the off-peak season. It would be nice to see the Chaleur and Ocean operate on seperate days to maintain 6 days a week at least to Matapedia, but I doubt that is going to happen (even though it should). The Ocean's ridership is largely at its peak further east of the split with the Chaleur (in the Moncton area, as opposed to Matapedia).
I also have to wonder if the "deluxo" Chateau and Park Cars that are being renovated were really needed if the Canadian is going to be reduced to such a schedule. The Canadian should revert back to its old three night four day schedule that seemed more popular than its present schedule.......travelling throught the prairies during the day time hours and pouring on a lot of extra padding throughout the route. I think the OTP would be much better now than what it was when VIA was asked to change the schedule by CN.
VIA's also not helped itself by not having same day connections to some of its western long distance trains (i.e. Skeena, Hudson Bay). And the Skeena's onboard service has been all over the map - particularly in "Touring Class." The best service, in my opinion, is still when this train had the Panorama Cars in tow, offering hot meal service etc. Now "Touring Class" on the Skeena is just an over priced option. The Panorama car's use on the Canadian seems odd at best - full service diner, lots of dome options, full sleeper optins etc.
VIA Rail Canada should definitely adopt the motto of - ride the trains while you can!
Posts: 337 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I'm doing my part to keep VIA going . . . next week the Mrs. and I take the Ocean from Montreal to Halifax. We decided to splurge and booked a deluxe bedroom in the Park car going (regular bedroom returning). There will of course be a trip report on Trainweb.org, but it probably will run later in September because we have also booked a two-week Caravan Tours tour of Nova Scotia. This will be our first ever guided tour with other travelers, so it will be doubly interesting.
Any tips or suggestions for either the Ocean or Nova Scotia in general?
Posts: 2236 | From: Evanston, Ill. and Ontonagon, Mich. | Registered: Feb 2007
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The 'Press Gang' was an excellent restaurant in Halifax when we were there a few years ago. Keith's Brewery also a good spot after a day of sightseeing.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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