posted
I'll be field-checking this later in the summer, but, in checking my notes from an AMTRAK trip I took 10 years ago, I noted that the route into Savannah from the south was not what I had mapped back then -- nowadays I normally am not paying attention during that part of the trip, since it is usually either dark or dinnertime then. My question is: Does the route from SAV to JAX pass through both Telfair and Alabama Junctions, or does it continue south through Telfair Jct and then through Ogeecheeton and Union Junction to join up with the former SCL line at Burroughs?
Also, at one time in the past, the Meteor and the Star took different routes between SAV and JAX, and the route of the Silver Star did not go through Jesup. Are there still 2 routes, or do both trains now use the same route, through Jesup, where of course the Star does not make a stop?
Thanks--
Railroad Rich
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rich, to my best knowledge, the two alternate routes JAX-SAV are referred to in official CSXese as via Nahunta or via WayX.
As you note, 91-92, Silver Star, does not make Jessup, therefore, but deferring as I rightly should to Mr. Palmland, it is at the discretion of the Train Dispatcher how these trains will be routed.
The same discretion is of course available for 52-53, Auto Train.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Gil -- in consulting my Rand McNally RR atlas, the route thru Waycross would still go through Jesup (it switches from the Jesup line just south of Jesup). I believe the older route of the Silver Star was via Thalmann, which is NOT on the same line as Waycross, and which does not pass thru Jesup at all. I believe, at one time many years ago, the SS stopped at Thalmann.
Any ideas, Mr. Palmland?
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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The ex-SAL line through Thalmann has been abandoned. A stub out of Savannah as far as Riceboro remains and a stub out of Jacksonville to some point north thereof also remains. However, a through train is no longer possible.
The Amtrak trains would not likely go through Waycross. The logical route would be Savannah - Jesup - Nahunta - Folkston - Jacksonville. Going through Waycross would be 19 miles longer than going through Nahunta.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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To add to George's comments, at first glance it seems strange that the ex SAL was largely abandoned. It was certainly the shortest at around 139 miles Sav-Jax. And it was straight - right through the swamps and marshes. Unfortunately as the most easterly line, it had many trestles that were hard to maintain and all single track. But the stop at Brunswick was convenient to the Sea Island resorts and I'm sure the source of many Pullman passengers in the day.
At about 170 miles, the line through Waycross was certainly longer and, as stated would only be used by Amtrak in an emergency or perhaps track work. It was and is a heavy freight line as the lines from the west converge there and is the location of a very large CSX freight yard. This was used by Amtrak's Floridian.
The line in the middle is the one used by Amtrak (and CSX intermodal and automobile trains) and is about 153 miles, still longer than the ex SAL. This line splits with the Waycross line at Jessup and the two rejoin near Folkston, Ga - a great train watching spot (complete with viewing stand) if you're in the area.
What a thrill it was to ride the Palmland on its late afternoon run to Jax from Sav. The porter and crew had no problem with a young college student hanging out the vestibule door as it flew across that scenic marshlands and across the many trestles. There is no doubt it far exceeded any speed limits (the FRA was not a concern in those days) and if I recall, Jax arrival was some 30 minutes early. The crew must have been running for the barn.
If you're around Jax, the ex SAL line diverges from the ACL/Amtak lines just south of the Amtrak station. It still trundles about 25 miles to the small town of Yulee where a short line operates a branch line over to Ferandina Beach. Interesting beach town with a large paper mill and small yard right in town. The drive from Jacksonville to Ferandina is very scenic (and goes through the resort area of Amelia Island). Just follow signs for highway A1A. The ex SAL line until recently continued another 15 miles or so to Kingsland where there was another paper mill, but it closed recently.
The line from Ferandina Beach to Yulee was part of the original railroad in FL. It continued west crossing the ACL at Callahan. From Callahan (a good train watching spot too) the line is still operated to Baldwin, FL where the SAL lines split for Ocala and points south and west to Tallahassee.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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At the time of the ACL+SAL merger there was discussion of double tracking the SAL to make it the primary Savannah to Jacksonville line. The cost of doing so due to the many trestles probably brought that idea to a halt.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Thank you, George -- yes, that was what I figured. I've been riding the Silver Service trains for many years between Central FL and Washington/New York thru the Jacksonville area. I know the line in use now is the line through Nahunta, so it looks like I don't have to change my maps then, since both trains use the same route.
What about the Savannah-Burroughs route? Through Alabama Junction or through Union Junction? Thanks--
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Don't know the answer, RRRich. As late as 1999 both the 'east'(ACL)route and 'west'(SAL) route between the station and Burroughs had max. authorized speed of 79 mph for the roughly 12 miles (with a couple speed restrictions). As the east route is mostly double track, I'd think that would be the one normally used. That was the one used when I took a trip on the Star this spring. I'd be interested to know what you find out. Perhaps it's at the discretion of the dispatcher.
As you probably know, the Silver Star line diverges just north of the station at Central Jct. for the SAL route to Columbia. Are your maps accessible on the web?
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thanks, Palmland -- when I put my route guide for these routes on my web site, the maps will be accessible, but I don't know when I'll be doing that. I have not done the route guide yet, since there is very limited information on history or geology of the Carolinas and Georgia, other than what AMTRAK already supplies with their route guides. I'll probably do my Florida guides before I do the "Eastern Seabord" guides(WAS to JAX)
And yes, I am aware that the Star diverges from the other line at Central Junction!
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Took a little time to look at a 2005 ETT I have managed to get my hands on:
490.7 (ACL) NE Passenger Station 491.4 (ACL) SE Passenger Station 491.7 (ACL) = 499.9 (SAL) Begin West Route 503.1 (ACL) = 509.6 (SAL) Borroughs, End West Route
There is a good bit of 79 mph speed limit on both.
The main thing is that the West Route (ex SAL) is almost 2 miles shorter, 9.7 miles versus 11.5 miles on the East Route (ex ACL). Although the run time difference is less than the milage difference, the minimum run time on the west route is also shorter. The difference is less because a smaller proportion of the west route allows 79 mph.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Based on the AMTRAK published mileage (aka "timetable mileage") to Jesup, it looks like the east route (the longer one) between Savannah and Burroughs is what is currently used, and that would also match my notes from my 2002 trip that the route to SAV from the south is not what I had mapped, but, as I said, I will field check that next month.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Just because the milage adds up that way does not mean the train actually runs that way. It could go either way based on dispatchers choice. It simply means the milage is added up that way. There are a number of locations where this applies.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Actually, it doesn't even add up right for that route either, I realized after I corrected my maps. Either the AMTRAK mileages are incorrect, or I still haven't found the proper route, but what I have mapped appears to be correct based on several trips through the area.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by RRRICH: Actually, it doesn't even add up right for that route either, I realized after I corrected my maps. Either the AMTRAK mileages are incorrect, or I still haven't found the proper route, but what I have mapped appears to be correct based on several trips through the area.
So far as I know, there is no other way. (Does I-95 work?)
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Thanks, George -- I think I actually do have the right routes mapped. I just don't trust the mileages in the AMTRAK timetables.
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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This routing option just south of Savannah always interests me. Amtrak operating crew have told me its is the dispatcher's choice whether to use the east or west line just below Savannah. All trains now do use the "A" Line via Jesup and Nahunta. When a detour route is needed, the cutoff from Jesup (note the correct spelling with one "s") to Waycross via Blackshear is used. That route does indeed rejoin the main line at Folkston. We rode the Waycross route on # 98 about 6 years ago as a freight derailment had blocked the usual route. As noted by others, the former "S" Line (SAL) via Thalmann, Kingsland, and Yulee was abandoned at some point north of Kingsland years ago. Today a shortline, the St. Marys RR, runs freight between the interchange at Kingsland and St. Marys, GA.The "S" line never ran via Brunswick. That city was served by Southern Railway which at one point in time ran limited passenger service there. In my childhood I rode the Silver Star via the "S" line through Thalmann, etc. My last trip on that route was on a Family Lines (or Seaboard System) steam excursion behind the 614. It made for nice photos crosisng the Trout River north of JAX. By the way, the "S" line diverged from the ACL just north of Jax Terminal Station (near today's I-95 overpass over the railroad) not at the junction near the Amtrak station. The old line snaked around northeast Jax before turning north near Pecan Park and the Trout River area.
Posts: 561 | Registered: Jul 2003
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Thanks, Jack -- I think I have it straightened out now, and it is as I thought concerning the Thalmann line and the route just south of Savannah station. Wow -- they sometimes detour through Waycross? I've never been on a train that has had to use that detour -- that would be considerably longer than the line through Nahunta, I believe......
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Rich, lets pretend you are a CSX Train Dispatcher assigned to the Savannah Jax territory, with the two routes via Nahunta and WayX. You have P0091XX to contend with, but you also have three NB trains committed to run via NAhunta, one of which there is "management interest" (think Tropicana mad at CSX) and another has a crew that is running out of time. Here you have 91 "more or less on time" and crew hours, not your concern but presumably OK.
Where would route 91 - even if it were to lose ten minutes over the road?
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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