I also received in the mail a colorful brochure labeled 'The Time is Now'. It was published by 'The Campaign to Restore the N&W Class J 611'. It of course was asking for financial support. But, this appears to also have the support of CEO Wick Mooreman (who appears to really relish the historical importance of his railroad - ie. he's a railfan) and the Norfolk Southern as the "611 has been invited to join Norfolk Southern 21st Centruy Steam Program". If the funds are raised, 611 will participate in NS Steam Program next year. The locomotive is apparently in excellent condition except some relatively minor repairs . A maintenance facility in Roanoke is also needed. The repairs would be done in NC Transportation museum in Spencer, NC. More info here. And, yes, I will make a donation.
Now to connect this to Amtrak - it's not too hard to imagine Mr Mooreman in the cab of 611 as it hauls one of the Piedmont trains out of Charlotte!
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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How long is a wheelset on a current EMD or GE C-C locomotive? What's the minimum curvature the wheelset can support? What's the minimum curvature a modern high horse Diesel can operate in? How does that compare to a Big Boy?
As I recall, one of the guys on the 3985 rebuild crew talked about taking a stoker screw from the Big Boy in Cheyenne. He (Trains Magazine, back around 1975-77??) said that a Big Boy would probably never run again, because trackage was constantly being improved to support modern Diesels, and there were places where a 4-8-8-4 used to run, but no longer would.
So, my question is, does UP have a shot at an operational locomotive, actually serving the system, or is this a "white elephant"?
Don't get me wrong. I posted the announcement on my Facebook page, and I hope it comes through.
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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In addition to these exciting developments for steam fans, I look forward to hopefully seeing the Southern Railway 4501 currently under rebuild in Chattanooga take to the rails again.
Perhaps someone can organize a big train show in 2015 somewhere like St. Louis where we can see the Big Boy, 611, 4501, and kin together in one place.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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When they were running, the operating timetables would have had lists where these big engines could and could not go.
There has been no acceptance of lower standards of curvature since the end of steam. Quite the contrary. Think about all the long wheelbase auto carriers and piggyback flats. There are plenty of places they could not go that were no problem to the 40 ft freight cars of the past.
These big six axle diesels are not very tolerant of poor track condition small radius curves, either. I would suspect that the large steamers would be unlikely to have any problem going where a six axle diesel can go.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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David, I had forgotten about 4501, good point. Wasn't that engine really responsible for getting the modern day steam excursions started?
As for the Big Boy, if it's anything like my model railroad, I would think the two sets of fixed 4 axle drivers is as much a problem as the overall length. But, as David P. Morgan said, "Steam fares better in the flatlands" - now maybe for different reasons. But, I could see it running flat out on the UP's triple track mainline in Nebraska without much problem. Not so much over the former DRGW.
As for a steam roundup, how about another city the UP and NS share - Kansas City. That great terminal still stands, although not sure how much trackage remains in that area other than the mainline. That would be a sight: NS 630, 611, 4501 and UP 844, 3985, and the Big Boy.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nice pic, and the Western Auto building and sign look exactly like they did 48 years ago. I met my bride in that great town in 1965 while I was in the Air Force, and she was working at Western Auto right in that building.
After we got married, we lived off base in Grandview, and I remember the KCS streamliner to New Orleans (Southern Belle?) coming through Grandview.
Besides a wife, I acquired a lifelong addiction to good barbecue there.
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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Geoff: Hey -- do they have a Wait List? It is very rare for everyone to show up as planned, as some people's plans change at the last minute -- due to circumstances beyond their control. Contact whoever is doing the photo shoot and ask them if they have a Wait List., and if they do, get on it.
Good Luck!
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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Darn! I so sorry, Geoff. Sounds like there is a definite need to do this again before the Fair next month. Wonder if they could do that?
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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To quote the director, "We are considering a 2nd Night Photography session in October that may feature the Santa Fe #3450 and Southern Pacific #5021 steam locomotives."
It's not the end of the world. I'm not a big steam fan anyway, especially fake steam! But being so close was the main attraction for a couple of hours of fun on a Saturday night.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Notelvis noted that SRY 4501 would also be joining the parade soon. This is in today's Trains.com newswire which reported that the first set of drivers were reinstalled today:
"The excursion favorite from 1966 to the end of Norfolk Southern’s original steam program has been under restoration for two years since Southern 2-8-0 No. 630 was restored in 2011. If all goes well, No. 4501 could be under steam by the end of the year. Museum officials expect to place it into main line excursion service in 2014."
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Milwaukee Road 261, NKP 765 amd Union Pacific 844 plus Santa Fe 3751 should all be out on the rails in 2014.
Posts: 711 | From: Santa Ana | Registered: May 2003
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4501 is a sentimental favorite of mine given that she was the first 'big' steam locomotive that I saw. That was moving an Asheville, NC - Knoxville, TN excursion in 1971.
By definition in this case - 'big' means standard gauge. I was already pretty decently versed by that time in the two pristine narrow gauge locomotives at Tweetsie Railroad in Blowing Rock, NC.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lovely painting Mr. Norman!!!!! And yes - BIG Southern steam such as this would look nice teamed up with the 611. I am told that the restoration of 4501 includes the addition of an automatic stoker for the first time!
The magnificent beast in your painting is a 1917 Baldwin product from Southern's initial class of 4-8-2 locomotives. There were 23 of them and they were popular on the passenger trains operating in and out of Asheville, NC where a 4-6-2 just wouldn't do.
For the record - the Skyland Special expired in about 1958...... just a few years before I was born. I was 6 when the last scheduled passenger train over Saluda, the last remnants of the Carolina Special, were discontinued a decade later.
A framed copy of this painting - lifted from a Howard Fogg calandar - hangs on my office wall! It depicts the northbound 'Skyland Special' entering Saluda, NC..... the top of the steepest portion of the Saluda grade BUT not the highest point reached between Spartanburg, SC and Asheville, NC.
The tracks are still in place on Saluda Mountain but the line is railbanked and isolated from the rest of the national railroad network by a mound of dirt blocking the tracks on either end. I'm not sure where the southern end of the embargo is located but on the North Carolina side it is in the community of Zirconia about 10 minutes driving from my office!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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A footnote although I am in no hurry to reach 4,000 posts before passengers board the Wisconsin Talgo -
The helper locomotive in the painting you linked Mr. Norman is undoubtedly a 2-10-2 from the 5000 number series which Southern used in freight and helper service in the Southern Appalachians.
A now departed family friend named Dale Roberts grew up by the tracks in East Asheville. Dale was a self-educated authority on Southern steam (and possibly the finest oboist that North Carolina ever produced) who used to say that Southern's big fifties looked like circus elephants down on their knees as they neared the summit of Old Fort Mountain.
The more acclaimed reporter Don Phillips, on a railfan junket to capture steam's parting hours in China maybe a decade ago even likened the sound and appearance of the Chinese 2-10-2's to the Southern 'fifties' in the Carolina mountains fifty years earlier.
Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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I had heard that the 4501 would return in it's black freight scheme. Those who saw the late 1990's movie 'October Sky' may recall the 4501 in black masquerading as a Norfolk & Western locomotive. I had heard also that an automatic stoker was part of the plan for the 4501. It looks to me like they are going to be raising the height of the cab floor at least 10 inches to accomodate that.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Speaking of steam news - Did anyone else notice in the Trains newswire a day or two ago that the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad has approached the B&O Museum in Baltimore about possibly restoring a former C&O mallet for use while their own 2-8-0 goes in for overhaul in 2015?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Those are remarkable photos Yukon.
I had heard that the 4501 would return in it's black freight scheme. Those who saw the late 1990's movie 'October Sky' may recall the 4501 in black masquerading as a Norfolk & Western locomotive. I had heard also that an automatic stoker was part of the plan for the 4501. It looks to me like they are going to be raising the height of the cab floor at least 10 inches to accomodate that.
*************************** I sort of hoped they would go with the green paint scheme but I'm sure many prefer the black.
October Sky is one of my all-time favorite movies.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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I think that I would have preferred the Southern passenger green paint scheme on 4501 also since that's what she wore during her early excursion career and that's what I first saw.
Even then though I knew railfan purists who were offended that a Mikado freight locomotive was wearing anything other than it's original black.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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One of my favorite 'Trains' photos was a very black Mike helping the Skyland Special over Saluda in a downpour. It was called 'shower for a dirty mike'. I wouldn't care what color it was if we could see that again with 4501.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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As I mentioned earlier, my current school is about 10 minutes driving from the point where a big mound of dirt isolates the rails down Saluda Mountain from the national railroad network.
Previously - from 1998 through June 2004 - I worked at a school within earshot of the grade crossing in Zirconia, NC..... the first community with a post office north of Saluda.
The last revenue freight over Saluda Mountain operated in December 2002 though I did hear a work train blowing for the crossing some 8-10 months later. Might have been there to create the dirt mound.
While the 4501 will live to fight more steep grades, it's pretty uncertain whether Saluda will ever again be among them.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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The TVRM restoration of 4501 is moving ahead with pressure testing of the boiler being done.
Today, Trains.com had an announcement from the Virginia Museum of Transportation. A portion of that press release:
"ROANOKE, Va. – The Virginia Museum of Transportation hopes to construct a new maintenance and education facility as part of its campaign to restore Norfolk & Western 4-8-4 No. 611 to service. The new building would provide facilities and equipment to enable No. 611 to remain in service for an extended period of time.
The proposed Preservation and Education Facility would resemble a Norfolk & Western “lubritorium,” the buildings N&W designed for quick service for its fleet of modern steam locomotives. The building will include maintenance space, educational exhibits, and a visitors’ gallery. It will also be used to host rail-oriented meetings and events."
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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A prediction..... based on a hunch and speculation among railfan friends -
Perhaps the 4501 will debut on a Chattanooga-Stearns, KY trip on June 7, 2014.
The 630 will be coming south from Lexington, KY with a one way excursion to Chattanooga. The two locomotives might doublehead from Stearns to Chattanooga.
AGAIN - purely speculation based on a handful of givens..... those being -
1) The 630 will be running the trip originating in Lexington.
2) A trip from Chattanooga to Stearns is also advertised at the TVRM website though it currently shows as diesel northbound, steam on return.
3) Finally - June 7 will be one day beyond the 50th anniversary of 4501 leaving the K&T in Stearns for it's trip to Chattanooga, restoration, and immortality.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hey David (notelvis) -- please check your PM box. I have a question for you!!
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Interesting thought David. Perhaps the uncertainty of a completed 4501 is the reason that portion of the TVRM steam trips is listing but tickets not yet available. Regardless, Stearns, KY would be a good spot to be standing trackside on June 7.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Trains.com reports N&W 611 will be moved to Spencer for this event:
Streamliners at Spencer . It should be quite an event. Also that weekend SRY 630 will pull an excursion into Oneida, TN and, as David points out, the next weekend there is speculation that SRY 4501 will make its first appearance there.
After the event, restoration of 611 will begin at Spencer. Sounds like NS is trying to upstage UP's Big Boy move. I'll take 611 any day.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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Somewhat off topic, but it certainly appears that three of the Class I's, namely NS, UP, and KCS, care much about their heritage, while the others, BNSF, CSX, GT, and SOO, appear not overly concerned.
The two US subsidiaries of the Canadians are recognized as Class I's
To close, Amtrak is to be commended for their efforts with both the Heritage and the Veteran's units.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Now Gil, how can you say that about good ol' CSX. They contributed a $10k matching grant for the cosmetic restoration of ACL 1504, a USRA Pacific residing in Jacksonville0. Some might say 'big whoop'.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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"Newly restored Southern Railway 2-8-2 No. 4501 will make its grand return to steam Sept. 6-7 at the Tennessee Valley Railfest in Chattanooga. The public debut of the locomotive will feature a dedication at Railfest."
Also, last weekend I was in Spencer, NC again. Preston Claytor put on a program and tour about the restoration progress of N&W 611. All the streamlined sheathing is carefully stored in the huge back shop building, along with vintage vehicles and a Piedmont airlines DC-3 (to be restored but now in pieces)
611 is still on schedule for a spring debut. Nothing major unearthed in the dis-assembly and inspection process. The back sheet needs work but mostly a labor not material issue. Much of the credit for its good condition goes to the great care taken when it was mothballed in the 90's. Scott Linday of Steam Operations Corp. was closely involved then and is now the prime contractor restoring it.
That will be quite a day when 4501 and 611 meet again, under steam. Claytor promised at least one excursion out of Spencer for 611 as the NC Transp. Museum has been such a good host. One interesting tidbit: as big as their roundhouse is, 611 just barely fits - without its tender. A roundhouse built in the 1920's clearly wasn't designed for the modern steam power of 1950. Engine and tender hang over the edge of their 100' turntable - about 5' at each end.
For those wanting to be on the priority list for notification of the excursions before the public, Claytor suggested a donation of $611.00 to 'Fire Up 611'.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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As reported earlier, the Norfolk and Western's famous J class steam locomotive, 611, underwent its second restoration this winter at the North Carolina Transportation Museum in Spencer, NC (former Southern RR shop complex).
On Thursday, restoration was complete and it made a mainline test run from Spencer to Greensboro, NC and return, about a 100 miles. Excursions are planned throughout the summer based in its home at the Virginia Transportation Museum in Roanoke. That is fitting since the N&W built her near there in 1950 at the very end of the steam era.
The photos say it all. I took them just east of NS's Linwood yard. Just before it appeared an N&W local switch crew that had seen us at the remote crossing joined us after going off duty. The fireman, an 11 year veteran was speechless - first time he had seen steam. I am sure none of this would have been possible without the full support of NS retiring Chairman, Wick Moorman, a great believer in railroad heritage.
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Thanks Richard, I like to think the train looks like the Birminghan Special, or Pelican, that operated behind this type engine, with part of its trip on the Southern railroad mainline, perhaps somewhere in southern Virginia in the late 50's.
For those interested in steam, I urge you to book an excursion behind her this summer out of Roanoke. 611 may have two lives, but not likely a third.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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The last time Houston hosted a Super Bowl, UP brought their Big Boy to town, pulling a lot of UP passenger cars. I went down there to see it the day before the Super Bowl. It was an awesome sight.
Wonder if they will bring it next year?
Posts: 1418 | From: Houston, Republic of Texas | Registered: Jan 2001
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