posted
I was alerted to this development reviewing another site, but anyone, even if out of curiosity, tried to book Sleeper on 91-92, Silver Star, after July 1?
"None Available" says the website.
The speculation over there ranges from "glitch" to "determining fare buckets" and even the Star will be Coach only.
Anyone care to add to this mysterious development?
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't think anyone has a clue, GBN. So, in the absence of any facts, speculation runs wild. Many theories:
The Star gets rerouted in some fashion. But, fact is you can still make a coach reservation on all segments.
Another theory: train goes all coach/cafe with the sleepers being added to the Meteor. But, those using it to Tampa would then be left out of sleeper space and what have you really saved.
My best guess: the sleeper prices will change as it will be the test train to see the effect of not including meals in the fare. Certainly a logical spot for such a pilot program as can compare results (bookings/customer reaction) with the present operation of the Meteor between the same endpoints.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are inferences at another site known for joking around and posted on April Fools that 91-92,Silver Star, will lose its Diner and one of its Sleeper lines.
Further, no meals will be included; Sleeper passengers will have to make like the folk back in Coach or otherwise "line up and pay up" at the Snack Bar.
This would be a plausible explanation as to why no Sleepers are available after July 1 - 60 Mass is still evaluating the pricing "metrics" (First time I have ever used that Newspeak buzzword).
The released single level equipment, existing and building, would be assigned to 58-59, City. The released Superliner equipment would become a sixth Empire Builder set.
Left unanswered is where would A-2 Coaches come from?
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Palmland lives! But I suspect it's grill-diner, with the coldest beer according to DPM, would be far superior to Amfood
Hope they modify its schedule some since it is becomming essentially a day train to the Carolinas comparable to the Palmettto. In fact the Palmetto should assume the Star's service south of SAV since its a faster route RVR to SAV.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've been looking at Silver Service ridership statistics in the Amtrak Monthly Reports and at the NARP pages. The Silver Meteor carries many more sleeper passengers than the Star (about a 58/42 split). Here are some passenger numbers for 2014:
Tampa had 7,489 sleeper on/offs (20.5/day)
Raleigh had 2480 (6.8/day)
Cary had 2231 (6.1/day)
Columbia had 1752 (4.8/day)
.
The Star's top 5 city pairs (by revenue):
1. NY-Orlando
2. NY-Tampa
3. NY-Richmond
4. Miami-Tampa
5. NY-Raleigh
The Star's top 5 city pairs (by ridership:
1. Tampa-WPB
2. Miami-Tampa
3. Orlando-Tampa
4. Ft. Lauderdale-Tampa
5. NY-Richmond
What I'm seeing in those numbers is that the Silver Star is actually 2 different trains: a NYC to Tampa train and a Tampa to Miami train. Is it possible to sever the existing Silver Star at Tampa and run the Silver Star as an overnight train between NY and Tampa only (with sleepers and a diner) and run another train between Miami and Tampa with coach/business class service? Amtrak would have to build up staffing at Tampa in order to turn the Silver Star and the Miami to Tampa train, but that shouldn't be impossible.
To save money, I would look at making some staffing and schedule changes on the Star's route that might actually increase ridership. The southbound Star offers plenty of connections from other trains at Penn Station, so I would keep the 1102a departure time (with an arrival in Tampa at 1223p the next day). But the northbound Star has a relatively late arrival in NY (650p) which doesn't allow for very many guaranteed northbound connections. If the Star arrived 2 hours earlier in NY (at 450p/leaving Tampa at 327p the previous day), many more same-day connections could be made at Penn Station to the Regionals and the last northbound Acela. An earlier arrival in NYC that creates more connections should boost ridership.
But if Amtrak's goal is to free up an extra low level trainset, the Star could be scheduled to keep its current northbound departure time from Tampa which allows almost 5 hours in Tampa. Is that enough time to allow for a same day equipment turn?
Amtrak could also save money by offering full diner service between NY and Raleigh only. The southbound Star arrives in Raleigh at 901p. The diner crew could de-train, spend the night in a hotel and catch the next morning's northbound Star at 645a or 845a (depending on the Tampa departure time). The diner would be closed and unstaffed between Raleigh and Jacksonville. At Jacksonville, a continental breakfast and snackbox lunch could be catered for the sleeper passengers and served by the sleeper attendant.
Amtrak's current schedule shows that the trip between Miami and Tampa takes about 5.5 hours in each direction. It would be possible to have that service operated by one trainset (leave Tampa at 730a/arrive Miami 100p, leave Miami 330pm/arrive Tampa 900p) or even create 2x daily service with morning and afternoon trains in each direction every day. Afterall, don't some people seem to think that there's a big market for train service in Florida?
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: The released Superliner equipment would become a sixth Empire Builder set.
Joking aside, why would they need another set? They had at least one additional set last year when the run times were extended by 3 hours in each direction, but now the schedules are back to normal and oil traffic is waning, there doesn't seem to be a need for such. I'm not sure where that additional set came from anyway.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Your point is of course noted Mr. Mayo; they are known for joking around at that site - and on April Fools no less.
As I noted, where would the nine to twelve A2 Coaches needed for a single level City come from?
But do allow me to note that this is not the first time that Amtrak has ordered new equipment - then it arrives and no trains for it to run. Cases in point: the S-2's were ordered for the trains that existed circa 1992. Then came the Clinton/Mercer cuts, and they were flush with Superliners. Additionally, P-42 locomotives were ordered for transforming the LD'S into "Mixto Diarios" - we all know where that caper went. "Attrition" sort of took care of the surplus S-2's.
This will be "sport" to watch this one play out - and Mr. Palmland having to watch "his" train become unfit to ride.
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: This will be "sport" to watch this one play out - and Mr. Palmland having to watch "his" train become unfit to ride.
The term 'chicken bone special' may again be appropriate, GBN..
Best solution, if you must dumb it down: make it daylight SAV-WAS connecting to 66/67 overnight to NY/Boston. Then if it does have 1 sleeper, would restore the night owl. Of course that is very close to the schedule of the old Palmland and Havana Special- and those trains were packed with the northern migration in the 60's.
Then rename the Palmetto something original like the Silver Palm and run to Tampa/Miami.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
This is in no way 'official' and I don't believe that there is anything here that we avid foamers don't already suspect. It is, however, a 'higher' level of speculation' from someone with real life insight into how these things work.....
This note is from an old friend who was a Southern Railway trainmaster at the time the Southern Crescent transferred to Amtrak in 1979 and more recently retired about 5 years ago from a lengthy career with the NCDOT Rail Division having played a role in the ongoing infrastructure improvements between Charlotte and Raleigh to accommodate the increased passenger train frequencies NCDOT supports -
"Sorry to be so long getting back to you, but you've asked a question that Amtrak doesn't want to talk about.
Though they won't say anything officially, here's the speculation. In a move to reduce food service losses, Amtrak may be considering removing the diner from the Silver Star and serving food only in the lounge. The thinking may be that sleeping car passengers will be less interested in riding the Star if it doesn't have a diner, so one or both sleepers from the Star may be moved to the Meteor. Even if this is true, why hasn't Amtrak announced it since they've already stopped selling sleeping car space on the Star after June 30? So we're left without a good answer."
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
David, that seems to confirm conventional railfan wisdom - for what that's worth. But it does beg the question your source raised, if there is to be at least one sleeper, why not sell the space. Only two answers I can think of: the Star becomes coach only, or the fares will change since no meals included and their IT guys haven't programmed it yet.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Makes you wonder if some of the yet to be started new diners will morph into a modified cafe lounge: a viewliner version of the CCC. Difference being they won't pretend to serve full sit down meals.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here is Amtrak's press release. Star still has sleepers with lower fares, but no diner, just the cafe/lounge.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Back in the barn; well at least this mystery was solved during my absence. If the "experiment" is deemed successful, I would think The Cardinal is kneeling in the "next batter" circle.
Surplus equipment? when Amtrak does something to soothe Mica and friends, who worries about that?
Posts: 9976 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Love the way Amtrak's press release, in the best tradition of "Mad Men" advertising, couches the reduction in service as a plus. Yes, now you can travel cheaper than before, but forget about a decent meal on board.
Amtrak: Like the cattle car airlines, only without the peanuts!
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Makes you wonder if some of the yet to be started new diners will morph into a modified cafe lounge: a viewliner version of the CCC. Difference being they won't pretend to serve full sit down meals.
There's also been a rumor that the Star would surrender one of its sleepers to the Meteor. That would mean four sleepers on the Meteor.
Seems to me that when the combined the Star and Meteor at one time - due to track maintenance, Amtrak had to still operate two diners to handle the coach and sleeper patrons.
Amtrak is getting 25 new Diners. Wonder if that still will stand up AND if they truly will be the next car off the assembly line.......
But if they move a sleeper from the Star to the Meteor - isn't that sort of an oxymoron? Perhaps it more moronic.....the assumption is people would be "drawn" to the lower sleeper fare. But if they only have one sleeper, that would reduce the supply!
This all very interesting, and in my opinion, puts the Amtrak service to Florida at an all-time low.
posted
An article by David Peter Alan appeared in the "National Corridors Initiative" May 4, 2015, entitled, "Another Amtrak Service Downgrade...Carolinas and Florida".
He provides some dollars and cents analysis of savings imagined or real for the train's bottom lines.
Very briefly, his opinion is summed up in the last paragraph gloomily predicting that this action on the Star will lead to an eventual downgrades, as described, for all long distance trains.
For my money, I like the dining car experience, even as it stands now. I have eaten in many very good restaurants and do most of my own cooking. My point is that I do appreciate well prepared, well presented and well served meals. Amtrak diners are not that bad as some suggest. I have no complaints. I always look forward to meeting new folks at the table. Most have been interesting to talk to.
If the dining car service is eliminated from LD trains I don't think that I would want to overnight anymore.
I just returned from my annual trip to see loved ones in Florida. We pack the schnausers in the car and travel from La Quinta to La Quinta (pet friendly and breakfast, sometimes meager, included). Creaky bones limit my range to about 600 miles. We go the long way via Birmingham, I-10 across the panhandle then I-75 and/or Florida Turnpike. We usually go to both Tampa and Port St. Lucie. I have never seen such terrible traffic as I have experienced every time that I have traveled to Florida. I-10 is not unpleasant but once we hit I-75 and the Turnpike it is as bad as anything that I have ever driven in. The traffic is hubcap to hubcap and no one drives under 75 mph. With this in mind I would think that the people in Florida, especially the older ones like me, would be clamoring for passenger rail service. But apparently as a state, it is hostile to support for expanded modern passenger train service. Hard to figure that one out.
V206, upon reading your comments it seems as though the triangle between Tampa, Miami, and Orlando/Jacksonville would be a natural for frequent fast (100 mph) trains. Will it ever happen?
Posts: 140 | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Iron Mountain: [QB]
For my money, I like the dining car experience, even as it stands now. I have eaten in many very good restaurants and do most of my own cooking. My point is that I do appreciate well prepared, well presented and well served meals. Amtrak diners are not that bad as some suggest. I have no complaints. I always look forward to meeting new folks at the table. Most have been interesting to talk to.
If the dining car service is eliminated from LD trains I don't think that I would want to overnight anymore.
************************************ Mr. Iron Mountain, I totally agree. Here is an article, from 7 years ago, regarding services on the long-distance train:
An excerpt from the above, regarding food services:
"Of the two dining cars, one will be a traditional diner with white linen service, open continuously from 6:30 A.M. to 10:00 P.M. This car will primarily serve the sleeping car and premium coach passengers, but also be available to other coach passengers who are willing to pay upscale restaurant prices for a meal".
"Dining car service meals must be included in the cost of accommodations for all sleeping car and premium long distance coach service passengers. This guarantees income to the dining car service, and it is irrelevant whether or not the passengers consume the food they have prepaid for in their accommodations fare. By combining the accommodations and food service costs into one fare (as is done on cruise ships) along with a given set of amenities, a higher fare can reasonably be charged without protest from passengers."
********************************************** If "premium coach" or business class seating becomes more available on LD trains, perhaps they should include meals with that fare. I'm starting to think, if the present trend continues, they should offer box lunches, trackside, for passengers before they board.
The paragraph titled "Today's Rider" also is informative. I don't want Denny's-type food if I am paying 4 figures for a LD round trip. Offer choices.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
