posted
I just turned to Fox news and they are covering an Amtrak crash of #188 near 30th St. station. #188 (Phil. to NY). No extensive details, yet. It appears to have derailed, with many injuries, although no info. on how serious the injuries. They are now saying #188 could have hit a freight train.
posted
While 99% of facts and circumstances regarding this incident are not yet known, the usual caveats regarding speculation should be noted. There likely will not be a final report from the NTSB for a year.
Of interest, during 1943, the PRR had a serious incident with fatalities apparently near where this incident occurred.
posted
The straight section before this curve is rated at 70mph; the curve itself 50mph.
RE the freight train, that appears to be misleading, a secondary collision perhaps though I've yet to see any freight cars with obvious damage. The locomotive came to rest not more than 25ft away from an apparently loaded tank car though.
Six known dead and it's still in the rescue stage.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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If you can get to it, here is New York Times coverage of the 1943 incident.
Regarding the equipment, the photos published by various outlets of ACS-64 #601 suggest frame damage. If that the case, the brand new locomotive will be written off. Several Amfleet Coaches would also appear "goners". Ironic how they "died" not far from the Budd plant where they were "born" 40 years ago.
With the maturity level of all here, I know we will leave the speculation regarding causes to other sites.
And finally to the humans suffering injuries - including fatal, nothing but thoughts and prayers. That is all we can offer.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
There is a screenshot that was taken from Amtrak's website last night where you can look at your train on a map with the MPH listed. It is "live" info (I completely forgot Amtrak had that function on their website). Anyway, last night someone posted the status of train #188 just as it approached the 50MPH curve. Amtrak's tracker said the train was going 106MPH.
There is another source that says the train was going 108MPH. I'm not sure how it works, but ATCS is a railfan hobby involving computers, special software, and some method of being able to have almost the same screen that the dispatcher has, with "live" train status and signals, switch alignments, and more. I know nothing about it----but I have seen people use it trackside on their 4G equipped laptops. So those guys are saying 108MPH.
There was also a retired NTSB official on the news this morning, and he used to work train crashes. He explained how speed will most likely be a factor in this crash because of where the cars landed as far as distance from rails, which side they went to (left or right), and the force required to undo special locking passenger train couplers.
So there are three somewhat decent sources that place speed as the culprit. And I know who the engineer is, but I can't say his name until it is out in the public venue. However, he came from here and worked Caltrain (which was operated by Amtrak at the time) as well as being based at Oakland for the Capitols/San Joaquins. He left here a few years ago and moved to New York. The media keep saying that the engineer is in ICU, however, he was texting from the hospital last night saying that his injuries were minor.
But wow, what a mess that whole scene is out there. I was very impressed with how they used the MCIP (Multiple Casualty Incident Plan) as well as effectively using ICS (Incident Command System). They seemed to do it by the book and things were extremely smooth considering what was happening. I used to train on MCIP drills all the time---once a year. It's the biggest and most expensive training there is, but it's worth it because when "the big one" hits an agency, the MCIP and ICS *will* work as long as everyone is trained on it, and that they use it correctly. Philly was a great example of how it's done.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Is this the tweet that people are using to claim 106 mph? That tweet doesn't actually show that the train attempted to negotiate the curve at 106 mph, just that at its last recorded position the train was travelling at 106 mph.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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Just a word on the ATCS monitoring (I do it here too) - it is subject to a large degree of inaccuracy - they would have timed occupation of track circuits with known lengths but the delays in reporting such occupation/clearance can vary a lot. Nonetheless, I doubt the margin of error would be big enough to even allow an estimated 106mph to be actually (for example) 70mph.
That last recorded speed from the website shows it on a segment of track limited to 70mph. Assuming it's not faked, that's damning in itself.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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"An absolute, disastrous mess" is what one official called it in the colhttp://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/05/an-absolute-disastrous-mess/393155/?utm_source=nl_daily_link5_051315d light of day:
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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OK, nationally sourced news media (NBC) is now reporting the train was traveling at 100mph around a curve restricted to 50mph. It is also reported the Engineer has "lawyered up", which is his right.
It is further reported that this stretch of the Corridor has not yet been equipped with ASCES, or Amtrak's system of control that qualifies as Positive Train Control.
Now what remains as speculation is either the possibility of Engineer negligence (that includes falling asleep) or an equipment failure in the "drive by wire" systems within the ACS-64 locomotive.
Unless National media's reporting can be refuted, everything else is speculation that the mature participants at this Forum, choose not to be party to such.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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******* The train could have been traveling at over 100 miles an hour, twice the speed limit on that stretch of track, according to preliminary data recovered by the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the accident.
and:
The point at which the derailment occurred is a series of facing point switches to allow northbound (railroad east) trains to either continue toward Trenton (via a 50-55 mph left hand curve) or continue east toward Atlantic City. The speed south of the interlocking is 70 or 75 mph, the speed north of the interlocking is 125 mph.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: It is further reported that this stretch of the Corridor has not yet been equipped with ASCES, or Amtrak's system of control that qualifies as Positive Train Control.
Amtrak's PTC IS ACSES. However, it would seem that even if this section of track was fitted with the original ACSES (ie not the PTC "upgrade") then it would unlikely have had much effect as the system is too basic and not granular enough for short speed alterations.
I have seen it "reported" elsewhere that PTC is like ERTMS used in Europe, and ERTMS has barely started roll-out. Well, in fact the first ERTMS line was over 10 years ago and there are 90,000km of track fitted now - worldwide, not just Europe. The US' PTC will "feature" a few different versions of PTC, all incompatible with each other - but at least there are some groupings like BNSF and UP working together on their version of a "common" standard.
Opponents of ERTMS who support PTC try to point out that ERTMS could not possibly have been implemented in the US due to the number of different standards and railroads. They tend to go silent when asked how countries as diverse as Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Australia, France and South Korea (to list just a handful) can all achieve it...
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
What I'm puzzled by is, even though ASCES hasn't been implemented yet on the stretch of track in question, shouldn't Amtrak's already-existing Automatic Train Control have prevented the speeding that caused the accident? Does anyone have any information on this?
Posts: 86 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Amtrak has had ACSES for nearly 15 years. "Automatic Train Control" is a generic term that can include ACSES but is vague enough to be used by the media to sound technical when they don't really know.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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FYI our posts in this thread are being monitored by the news media. I forgot that this stuff is searchable and probably said too much last night dammit.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
While avoiding speculation with regards to the instant matter, there are many a case of an Engineer "forgetting where he was" and involving passenger trains.
The most immediate coming to mind is the 1955 incident occurring on Jenkins' Curve at Bridgeport CT, on the New Haven. Occurring during wee hours and in fog conditions, a Westward train derailed, with the cause determined as excessive speed.
There was no train control system beyond Automatic Block, let alone cab signals, and not even radio communications.
The electric locomotive was written off, possibly because New Haven management desired to phase down electric operations.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: While avoiding speculation with regards to the instant matter, there are many a case of an Engineer "forgetting where he was" and involving passenger trains.
It's human nature - how many times have you been driving along a freeway and suddenly wondered where you are? Fortunately rarely a problem on the roads but a different story when driving a train.
Both ERTMS and PTC have a display that shows what's coming up - whether a signal, a grade change, a speed limit. The PTC version I've seen scrolls left with the train in the bottom left. The ERTMS version scrolls vertically downwards with closer items taking up more of the display than items further away (logarithmic?).
Sample ERTMS display: the "upcoming" bit is the block to the right with the 0/500/1000/2000/4000 markers. Current speed 134kph, current limit 140kph, no reductions necessary now or in the near future.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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The media trucks showed up at several homes of people I was talking to online. Scary how simple conversations like that end up with them finding us and staking them out with a satellite truck out front. When a "person" got home from work yesterday, there was a big "NBC Investigative Unit" satellite truck parked in front of his house. He did not stop and drove right by.
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Heard it several years ago, "Never put in an email what you would have difficulty or be unwilling to explain on TV or in court." Seem that applies to web conversations as well.
I know it does. When searching on line for information on a specific rail section a few days ago, several items down in google's list was a conversation on rails that took place on this web 11 years ago. I was part of it, as was Geoff. It is sort of creepy to find this sort of stuff. At least what was said then did not included stuff I would be unwilling to explain or indicated breaking of confidentiality.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
In another forum there's a topic about the cost of LGA-DCA air shuttle tickets. For a seat on flight DL9929 (5/15) a coach ticket is currently priced at $4,618.20 (I counted 16 seats left). On flight DL9930 a coach seat is priced at $4,612.60 (I counted 3 seats left).
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
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I just googled "bagpipes and ponies". Yes, this forum is in the search results, and many of us are quoted from about 2008. Since I don't use my real name, at least I can only be identified as "An anonymous source within the community of rail enthusiasts advocating for the introduction bagpipes and ponies on Amtrak."
Posts: 1572 | From: St. Paul, MN | Registered: Dec 2002
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Returning to topic after the immediate posting made for unexplained reasons, we have to accept the severity of this incident. Although there were eleven fatalities at Tonti during June '71, compared with eight here, fault was shared with the Illinois Central, who under the then existing contractual relationship with Amtrak, assumed all liability arising from such. There were many more at Bayou Canot, however there was clearly an outside party on to which the fault was laid.
Here at Frankford JCT (or Shore, or whatever else this incident will be identified as), there are clearly no other parties with which the fault can be shared. After all, Amtrak employed Passenger Engineer, Amtrak ROW, Amtrak equipment - May 12, 2015 is the blackest day in Amtrak's history.
Will the institution survive? Of course it will. Will it survive the "Micascope" under which all of its operations be subject to? In all likelihood it will. Will it survive the Conservative initiatives to "shut it down" or "privatize" it? Likely. Will a passenger have the same confidence that they will travel safely to Destination? I'm afraid not. It simply is analogous to the "New Yorker state of mind" post 9/11.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Here at Frankford JCT (or Shore, or whatever else this incident will be identified as), there are clearly no other parties with which the fault can be shared. After all, Amtrak employed Passenger Engineer, Amtrak ROW, Amtrak equipment - May 12, 2015 is the blackest day in Amtrak's history.
You're speculating, Mr. Norman. I'm pretty sure somebody here warned against that.
Let's let the investigators do their jobs to rule out anything external that could have been a factor. There have been too many accidents even in my lifetime where fingers have been pointed by supposedly educated people but when the accident report comes out it turns out there was a major twist in the story.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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Agree w/Geoff above. Appearances are as Gil stated things that are in the media, but that's because we're not doing the investigation. If any of the rumors are true, it involves much more than that. (I worded this really poorly. I hope it makes sense. I can't figure out a better way to do it right now).
Vincent206: OMG!!!! Those air fares are insane. A simple coach ticket from La Guardia to Reagan Airport is about $4,600.00??? I think that is MORE than a round-trip, first class ticket to Maui [SFO-OGG on United or OAK-OGG on Alaska]. That's just crazy!!! However, it is a perfect example of supply and demand.
(PS: Those who explained how my sources were wrong or off----it's not a big deal, but I don't post "junk". You can see what I posted matches exactly what the NTSB reported regarding speed, to the exact MPH. I know now not to get into specifics since Big Brother is always watching, but I just wanted to point out that I posted 100% correct information. What I listed [Thank God!!!)] were not my only sources of information. This incident has changed how I post to everything in the future. Not just about trains, but about everything, including Facebook, which I post to every day about politics).
Posts: 2355 | From: Pleasanton, CA | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Here is both Associated Press and New York Times coverage of the possibility that outside parties, such as a trespasser, could have contributed to this incident:
Between the Board, now being assisted by the FBI, there are resources available to determine what object, if any, was intentionally thrown at the train.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by TwinStarRocket: I just googled "bagpipes and ponies". Yes, this forum is in the search results, and many of us are quoted from about 2008. Since I don't use my real name, at least I can only be identified as "An anonymous source within the community of rail enthusiasts advocating for the introduction bagpipes and ponies on Amtrak."
Having been active in the bagpipes and ponies conversations, I'm not sure that I would want those to be what I am remembered for!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
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If the safety shortcomings on the section of track that #188 derailed on, were due to lack of funding then how can Amtrak suddenly have the resources to fix the problem now?
Posts: 140 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mr. Iron, something else planned will simply not be done. At another site, it was speculated that Amtrak will need a supplemental appropriation to cover additional costs and lost revenue resulting from the incident.
How true with any of the above, I know not.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Here is coverage from the Philly CBS outlet KYW that the line is again open.
Also of interest should be Holman Jenkins' column appearing in Saturday's Wall Street Journal.
Fair Use quotation:
The accident on a curve in North Philadelphia looks more and more like a case of madness or dysfunction on the part of the engineer, a problem in all modes of transport that technology is ripe to solve (except in bicycling, where operator insanity is prevalent). But a modest comfort is becoming visible as the crash turns into ammunition in the infrastructure spending wars. Whatever the dispute about the Northeast Corridor, routes like Chicago-San Francisco and Los Angeles-Seattle that are hopelessly uncompetitive with air, and that gobble up taxpayer subsidies of $150 or more per passenger, are widely understood to be indefensible. These train rides are larks, indulgences, time killers.
It wouldn’t be the equivalent of fracking, but if the Philly accident leads to a political consensus to free Amtrak of these money-pit routes so it can do a better job on the Northeast Corridor, then even our politics aren’t hopeless.
Most interesting Mr. Jenkins is not echoing the Conservative party line of "shutt'er down" and recognizes the essential nature of Corridor service.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Amtrak needs the House, the Senate, and the President to exist. If Amtrak can cobble together a coalition of votes in the East, and not need Trains 1-8, 11, 14, 21-22 and 58-59 for votes, then watch for 180 day notices and the Adios drumheads.
Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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One wonders whether much analysis has been done on the efficiencies of operation - and I don't mean how many pickles you get on your burger. Take Metro-North's operations out of Grand Central, for example: just under 50 departures from 5pm to 6pm from 44 platforms. Compare to London Waterloo which has over 50 departures in the same time frame, but from just 19 platforms. Chicago is famous for its double slip pointwork - mostly eliminated elsewhere in the world due to its exorbitantly high maintenance cost compared to simple switches (and it's not like Chicago is short of space for simpler pointwork).
I also hear that a west coast operator's custom PTC version (incompatible with other PTCs, of course) is struggling to work. Seems even the likes of GE, Safetran, et al can't re-invent something umpteen times over without actually getting worse at doing the job! Of course, these problems and "new" re-inventions have to be paid by somebody: ultimately the US taxpayer, whether directly or indirectly.
-------------------- Geoff M. Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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I have a question. In the coverage I've seen most of the pictures show the "Engineer" wearing a "Conductor" uniform with the appropriate badge. Did this young man switch jobs? How common is that?
In our local news coverage they often use "Conductor" and "Engineer" interchangeably which gripes me no end!
Frank in cool and clear SBA
Posts: 2160 | From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA | Registered: Oct 2003
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I'm not saying that the Philadelphia derailment was not a terrible and avoidable accident, since it was indeed -- but the Republicans in Congress are using this incident as a reason to defund AMTRAK, apparently. In the derailment, 8 people out of 300-some were killed, which is indeed very tragic, and our thoughts and prayers go out to their families.
But if a Jumbo jet crashes (be it by terrorism or whatever), and 300 out of 300 people are killed instantly, the same Republicans don't threaten to cut funding to the airlines, do they? (as we all know, airlines get MUCH more Federal funding than measly little AMTRAK)
My food for thought.......
(don't get me wrong -- I will likely vote Republican in 2016, for other reasons......)
Posts: 2428 | From: Grayling, MI | Registered: Mar 2002
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I think this "Signature" used by a member over at another site, and a recently retired Locomotive Engineer, says it all:
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???
A good case in point; the Engineer of 188 (12) has obviously been "held from service pending investigation"; but then, so have the Conductor and the two Assistants - all for an event over which they had no control.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Was there not a time where the Conductor was responsible for the freight or the passengers on his train?
-------------------- The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations Posts: 1404 | Registered: Oct 2001
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The May 23 airing of The McLaughlin Group includes some five minutes of discussion regarding the incident. That program is presently streamed at http://www.mclaughlin.com/video.htm?i=1067 and the discussion is the final segment starting at about 21:00.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Pullman, that what any Book of Rules says, but in practice, in charge is whoever is driving the vehicle/craft.
Case in point: 4U 9525
Very safe assumption that the entire crew of 188 has been held from service (maybe the Snack Bar Attendant escaped). I'll bet the Conductor and two Assistants are wondering why they are sitting in the penalty box?
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Both the engineer and conductor of Train 188 were badly injured, and the poor conductor is almost certainly far too badly hurt to work now -- and, if reports of the extent of his injuries are accurate, he probably will never be able to return to work. He was in the bathroom of the first car -- the one that was crushed when it hit the catenary pole at 102 mph -- and broke his neck and his back, and injured both shoulders (I do not know how badly). Thus, "sitting in the penalty box" is certainly the least of his worries now and almost certainly for the rest of his life. He may well be a quadriplegic -- I do not know. I only know he broke his neck and his back, and hurt both shoulders.
The engineer got a concussion and was knocked unconscious for an unknown period of time, and got a wound on his head that took 14 staples to close, and both his legs were injured -- I do not know how badly. An engineer has to be able to climb the ladder up into the cab in order to be able to work, and the engineer's legs may be too badly injured to allow him to climb into a locomotive cab. Or at least for a while this may be the case.
Thus any talk about this particular crew being held out of service is irrelevant, because -- in the case of the conductor -- he is certainly far too badly injured to be able to return to work. I have no information about how bad the engineer's concussion was, and I have no idea how long it will take for him to recover sufficiently from his concussion so that that he will be able to safely operate passenger trains.
I have no information about what injuries, if any, the Assistant Conductors and the Snack Bar attendant may have suffered.
Posts: 211 | From: California | Registered: Dec 2004
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