posted
Already this incident in which 91 (3) , Silver Star, collided with a CSX freight early this morning near Columbia SC is receiving wide media circulation. There are reported two fatalities, employees or passengers not yet reported, aboard the Star.
It is much too early to have any verifiable information regarding cause. Being the mature and respectful site we have here, I know that only facts will be reported, and from which substantive discussion will develop.
To continue with a related thought, coming from the air transport industry, within which there has not been a passenger fatality on a US flagged carrier since 2009 (Colgan Air BUF), not any on US soil since '13 (Asiana - Korean flagged - SFO), and none worldwide during '17, Mr. Anderson must wonder "what kind of demo derby did I sign up for?"
Finally, we are addressing a passenger transportation company generating about the same passenger miles as a "second tier" airline such as Alaska-Virgin, that has hardly had any fatalities compared with nine in the past three years.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Local NBC news reports that 2 dead and about 70 admitted to hospital but 27 already released (8 am). Most had bumps, bruises and a few broken bones. He reported someone at the scene said ‘we dodged a bullet on this one’” in regards to the number of fatalities. 139 passengers and crew of 8 on the train.
Train was due out of Columbia at 1:38am headed to Savannah - don’t know if it was OT. A report said it occurred just befor 3 am. Accident occurred at few miles south of Cayce, on the south side of the river across from Columbia.
From the TV coverage it appears 91 was heading into a siding. Both CSX and Amtrak engines appear totaled with first coach buckled but upright which would indicate a direct or partial head on collision. Can’t see the rest of the train. These type of wrecks make you wonder why Amtrak doesn’t keep the baggage car next to the engine.
The freight train had autos racks directly behind the engines - not surprising as there is an auto unloading ramp in Dixianna, very close to the collision whcih also sidings to handle that business and may be what I’m seeing on TV. Charter buses picking up passengers who are at a nearby middle school. Governor to appear shortly. RJ Corman now on the scene to clear the wreck.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
From reading posted material, this admitted "newssnob" gives McClatchey's The State good marks for their coverage of the incident.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
This drone video from a New York Times article shows an aerial shot of the crash site. The video shows that the Amtrak passed a switch just before the collision.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
NTSB's afternoon press conference reveals that the switch was lined and locked to divert Amtrak off the main and into the siding where the CSX was holding.
It was also stated that a working PTC system would prevent this accident.
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thus far, Mr. Palmland, I give McClatchey good marks for what appears to be objective reporting.
While that the FBI is at the scene "assisting local authorities" suggests the possibility the crash may not be accidental. Troubling is the reference to a "locked" switch by the NTSB spokesman.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
If the switch was aligned into the siding, wouldn't the Amtrak train have had a red signal, and a yellow previous signal? All I can think of was that the switch was aligned into the siding after the Amtrak train passed the previous signal.
Posts: 446 | From: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
One report says the signals had been taken out of service as part of the installation of PTC. If this is true, the train would have been operating under verbal authority from the dispatcher to occupy the track who certainlay would have thought the switch was properly aligned. Supposedly the conductor was in the cab to facilitate taking the dispatcher instructions. He and the engineer were the fatalities.
Stay tuned for the real story.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think the NTSB will get to the bottom.of this incident "on the quick" - no fire, scene quickly secured by Law Enforcement.
No point for any "fair and impartial. .." on the Amtrak property....CSX? who knows.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Now known that the switch was lined and locked for the siding. Given the curve, likely that the engineer on 91 did not realize that it was putting him in an occupied siding more than a few seconds before impact.
What size turnout was that? If the usual low speed turnout it is surprising he stayed on the rails at the 50 mph plus it appears that he was running. It could well be it would have been better if the switch had derailed him, as he would have been going slower at the time of impact or even that his trajectory would have resulting in him missing the head on with the engines in the siding.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Based on picture in this NY Post article: https://nypost.com/2018/02/04/feds-investigating-why-amtrak-switch-was-set-in-wrong-position/ it appears that the switch is hand throw only. I can't be certain due to the distance and telephoto, but it looks to be a hand throw stand only, no power switch machine. Also, given the picture and my guess at what the SAL used for turnouts in this application, I would say this would most likely be a No. 10 turnout with a 16'-6" straight switch point. The usual speed allowed through these is 15 mph, but they can reasonably considered to be passable at 20 mph or so. The train obviously made it through without derailing. To make it through at 50 mph is astounding. Some of the passenger injuries could be simply from being thrown around passing through the turnout. Would like to see what the final speed at point of collision actually was. Frequently collision speeds are overestimated. Don't know whether that is the case here.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
The latest info seems to point to a misaligned switch as the cause of this accident. The fatalities were both in the lead locomotive and I'm guessing they were tossed around pretty violently in the accident. I'm wondering if there is anything that can be done to make locomotive cabs safer in the event of an accident. Would it make sense to have engineers and anyone else in the cab secured to a seat with some sort of seat belt or harness? A collision with another train at 59 mph is going to be violent and I wouldn't expect the crew to walk away unscathed, but is it possible to redesign the locomotive and the driver's stand so that the crew doesn't get thrown around so violently when an accident does occur?
Posts: 831 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Rules requiring two Rules Qualified persons to be "on the engine" when operating through "suspended signal" territory is sadly supported by evidential matter. Not yet disclosed is whether the Rule permitting normal speed, i.e. <61 mph, through such territory or that "speed not to exceed stopping short of any obstruction", or however it's worded nowadays, applied.
Such discussion has established that normal speed for "dark" territory was allowed under the Rules. Those same Rules required the (CSX) crew that aligned the switch to report to the Train Dispatcher that such was done (this even if done verbally by radio would be documented).
Apparently, there was a breakdown in adherence with those Rules by CSX employees. Some may say "Yeah, Amtrak’s off the hook", but to those who hold such, lest we not forget that there were two men on that engine, Rules Qualified, and operating that train in accordance with those Rules, who paid the ultimate price for simply doing their jobs.
The print and talk abounding in recognized media suggesting Amtrak address it's safety culture might be amended to read "Yäger's disciples".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
CBS Radio News has reported that NTSB spokesman Summwalt has confirmed the switch was improperly aligned and was locked in that position.
Not in any way does this mitigate the loss of life, but, again I note, it looks as if "Amtrak is off the hook".
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Some may say "Yeah, Amtrak’s off the hook", but to those who hold such, lest we not forget that there were two men on that engine, Rules Qualified, and operating that train in accordance with those Rules, who paid the ultimate price for simply doing their jobs.
What you meant to say was "let us not forget". "Lest we not forget" is not a verb phrase (a verb phrase being what's needed in that position). And even if you were determined to say "lest [something or other]", logically it'd be "lest we forget", not "lest we not forget". As in, for example, "Some may say 'Yeah, Amtrak's off the hook'; but to those who hold such, there were, lest we forget, two men on that engine, Rules Qualified, and operating that train in accordance with those Rules, who paid the ultimate price for simply doing their jobs."
Posts: 86 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: To continue with a related thought, coming from the air transport industry, within which there has not been a passenger fatality on a US flagged carrier since 2009 (Colgan Air BUF), not any on US soil since '13 (Asiana - Korean flagged - SFO), and none worldwide during '17, Mr. Anderson must wonder "what kind of demo derby did I sign up for?"
Well, so much for the Air Transport industry's 2018 worldwide safety record:
More than 70 people died when a Russian passenger plane crashed shortly after take-off from Moscow’s Domodedovo airport on Sunday, officials say.
Saratov Airlines flight 6W703 was heading to Orsk, a city near Russia’s border with Kazakhstan, when it went down near the town of Argunovo, about 50 miles south-east of Moscow. Witnesses said the plane, an Antonov An-148 aircraft, was in flames as it fell from the sky.
The plane was carrying 71 people – 65 passengers and six crew members. Emergency services officials told the Tass news agency there were no survivors. Wreckage from the plane was reported to be spread over a large area and it was unclear if there were any casualties among people on the ground
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was in Jacksonville at the ACL/SAL Historical Society meeting and annual Jax Train show past couple days. One of the presenters was Doug Ridell, ex SAL, SCL, Amtrak engineer. Lots of great stories and photos.
There is still no clear cause as to why the accident happened. Yes the CSX crew backed their train into the siding and left the switch lined for that track. But, the big question now is what communication was there, if any, between them and the dispatcher to follow proper procedure for confirming the main line was clear.
Also learned that the sale of the CSX lines in the FL panhandle received five bids with two of them being qualified bidders. Quite a bit of speculation, and it was just that, that one of the bidders is the FEC.
And the larger question, will either of them, or for that matter any future line sales, meet CSX asking price - it won't be cheap. Let the negotiations begin. Next on the block - lines in upstate New York headed into Canada. Neither of these two sales affect current Amtrak trains.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
I don't get it. CSX is at fault. But a "secret agreement" between Amtrak and the freights creates "no fault", which means Amtrak always takes responsibility for Amtrak passenger injuries and property/train damage in all cases. Amtrak pays with public money.
Seems a little strange to me. Maybe Amtrak should install those little insurance slot machines, like the ones you used to find in airports, in all of its depots. Probably anyone under 40 yrs of age won't remember those.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is no "secret agreement". It is the way track rights agreements have worked from the beginning of such things. (Mr. Norman, correct me if I am wrong.) Each party pays for their own damages, regardless of fault. That is, it works something like "no fault" insurance.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Richard, first let it be noted that the "secret agreement" is part of a bi-lateral agreement that Amtrak holds with CSX. As such, provisions of the Agreement are not subject to public disclosure.
My read (not an attorney, but a retired CPA who during my 1970-81 railroad career worked with the Agreement between Amtrak and my road) is that CSX can presently defend against a suit filed by the survivors of a fatally injured Amtrak employee. They can also defend against an Amtrak passenger injured resulting from the incident, as well as Amtrak themselves for damaged equipment.
Now any injured party will seek to have a ruling of Gross Negligence applied to their cases. In which case, drawing upon my one-time first hand knowledge of such, it would become "all bets off" on any self-indemnification provisions within such Agreement.
The "legal beagles are gonna have some fun"; and of course with their taximeters a tickin'.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
