posted
Here is the Times Opinion piece noted on the Morning Joe show referenced by Mike.
Fair Use:
Passenger trains are nice, but are only truly useful in dense areas. Meanwhile, we must dedicate much more resources to expanding broadband, getting cleaner water, better airports, and making sure our bridges and buildings are not in danger of collapsing.
But will the money be apportioned based on true need and spent efficiently — or will we end up with more Amtrak-esque infrastructure? The government-owned corporation, which operates in 46 of our 50 states, lost $475 million on its long-distance trains in the fiscal year ending Sept. 30, 2019. (Then, there are repairs, equipment costs and other capital expenditures.)
On the same day that President Biden unveiled his proposal to shovel billions into its coffers, the company announced plans to serve up to 160 new communities, including routes that would terminate in places like Duluth, Minn., Christiansburg, Va., and Cheyenne, Wyo. (thus making Wyoming the 47th state with service).
Amtrak had the opportunity to begin in earnest what was started with the Carter Cuts but owing to whatever got "deferred". The COVID frequency reductions could have been extended "indefinitely", and could have been the base from which to resume the orderly discontinuance of the LD trains.
There is a significant difference between today and when the Carter Cuts occurred during '79. There was both Amfleet II and Superliner cars being built and Superliner service had been selectively inaugurated.
Now both A-II's and Superliner I's are at the end of their service lives. If the now restored LD system is to continue, these cars will need to be replaced and the cost of operating the LD's will increase exponentially as well as ensuring that Amtrak will be stuck with these trains for maybe another 40 years - and paying the railroads the "bargain basement" rates believed to prevail.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Rattner supposedly was credited with saving the auto industry (GM and Chrysler, anyway) under Obama back in '09, so I guess now he wants to kill Amtrak LD. His dossier also contains a little kerfluffle involving kickbacks and the NY State Pension System for which he shelled out over $6 million in restitution without admitting wrongdoing.
Surprised he landed at MSNBC with these credentials and opinions. Certainly won't be one of Amtrak Joe's golden boys.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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I was with the MILW as a lowly "Management Trainee" during '73 when Amtrak placed the Superliner order. The 7th floor (CUS) washrooms walls heard "they just placed an order for new cars; we're going to be stuck with those trains for the next thirty years."
Need the Class I roads, for whom I only foresee more business even as Coal moves towards extinction, be perpetually burdened with these trains - for which they are remunerated at "bargain basement" rates?
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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what a hit piece by rattner. he neglects to mention the millions (billions?) in taxpayer subsidies to the airlines and auto industries. Dont want to fund Amtrak and give people a chance in rural areas who dont own cars/cant drive (seniors, students, disabled etc)? Fine. stop subsidies to airlines and auto companies as well. im tired of my taxpayer money bailing out industries that i dont partake/use (i dont own a car, and never fly) but yet this bozo complains about Amtrak funding, which btw is a drop in the bucket to the federal budget (lets talk about the widespread waste and abuse in defense spending, foreign aid etc).
Posts: 416 | From: St. Albans, Vermont | Registered: Feb 2003
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Jim, I'm far from the right side of the political spectrum, but I can certainly understand the rural population's beefs with "coastal elitism," which Rattner seems to carry the flag for.
-------------------- Ocala Mike Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
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While the industry has held any such initiatives "in check" to date, with Montana (now VT) Jim's position, what is to stop the advocacy community from saying the "can't drive" who needs to get to Chicago from Hastings for a medical procedure, from having the "can't drive" in Grand Island from same? At that rate, every passenger train route that had service on A-Day Eve, and potentially earlier than that such as the "Golden State" and the "Southern Belle", is potentially "ripe" for restoration.
Volks, never forget that had the roads not signed up for that "Faustian Pact With The Devil", which with hindsight, I'm sure they wished they never had, there wouldn't be an intercity passenger train today outside of the NE Corridor.
Finally, lest we not forget, the purpose of RPSA 70 was to, first, provide immediate financial relief to a then-beleaguered industry, which owing to deregulation under Staggers, real "statesmanship" by Labor, and operational efficiencies learned from "The Gospel According to Saint Elwood", is simply no longer the case, then to provide for an orderly discontinuance of the remaining Long Distance routes. It was not to perpetuate the existence of the Century and the Super Chief.
disclaimer: author long UNP
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Frankly, I had it to the eyeballs with the "coastal elitism" that seems to know all the answers to all the questions concerning things that affect the rest of the country. Also, so far as I am concerned the glorified commuter service financial black hole that is the northeast corridor needs to be funded primarily by those benefiting from it rather than primarily by the federal government with a minimal sop to the rest of the country of a few pathetically operated "long distance" trains.
Having a lifetime as a Civil Engineer mostly with transit systems with excursions into highway work and high speed rail work, I know well that the cost of everything built in these "superior above all others" parts of the country is way out of whack compared to the cost of building the same things is more rational parts of the country.
Going back to the beginning of the railroad era, many of the lines built were done with significant assistance from the local areas they passed through with the understanding that there would be benefits provided to those areas beyond just the ability to ship things at lower costs. It is notable that many of the western lines benefited greatly from the land grant system.
That the railroads are moaning and groaning about having to make space for operation of a passenger train or two: Waah, here have a crying towel, get over it and get about doing what you are supposed to do. If they have gotten to where they are by choosing to cash out assets rather than use them, that is simply corporate stupidity, if not criminality since they seem to want to go crying "poor me" to the government to pay for the fix when they have rendered their system incapable of operating properly. Curing the issues they created for themselves should not be paid for by the general public.
Maybe I will think of ways to say the above more politely later, but for now I leave this in to say it is time for Amtrak to get serious about running quality trains and the railroad companies get serious about properly accommodating them.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Mr. Harris, as always I respect your views you share at this forum, but in this instance I must disagree.
"I hear you" when you address "Coastal Elitism"; I'm from there (Greenwich CT), but to go to school, I came to the Midwest (Champaign) - and have stayed here for so far as recruiters visiting the Univ of Illinois are concerned, Chicago "is where the jobs are".
But I believe we must consider there are eleven "Debit States" in that the Federal taxes they pay (a debit on the US Treasury's books) are greater than what they get back (a credit on Treasury's books) or "Credit States". Four of those eleven states are along the Northeast Corridor. Therefore, I really find it difficult to accept the position that these states are getting any kind of a "free ride" insofar as Amtrak service goes.
Now so far as levels of Amtrak service, which mostly means frequency, Amtrak is simply running trains in Corridors because "it's where the bodies are", and in addition in the Northeast, those bodies have the $$$ to pay - and Amtrak obliges them with (supply and demand) "dollar a mile" fares on the Acela.
Further, a review of FY 19 ridership figures (at the website) shows, after making adjustments for Keystone and Empire Services as both are simply an extension of the Corridor, The NEC handles more passengers than all other "State Supported" services combined. Amtrak is simply operating trains, again, "where the bodies are".
Now so far as the argument of "Nashville deserves a train" (your Memphis has one, arriving and departing at the "fringe" of "people hours"), that means accessing over investor owned Class I trackage. I cannot recognize the crying towel position that CSX (only road in Nashville) is somehow "obligated" to accommodate a passenger train unless there is of course just compensation (which if hearsay is founded, no road gets from Amtrak).
As to the argument that the LD's really do not lose that much, and if the advocacy community is to be believed, they make money; and they lose only because of Amtrak's "fraudulent" accounting. But one thing is certain; much if not most of the equipment assigned to the LD trains is at the end of its service life, and if these trains are to continue indefinitely, they will have to be reequipped. Now should that occur, and the cost in the form of Depreciation (it's a real cost and not some kind of accountant fiction) is charged to those trains, they will by anybody's measurement be "the biggest loser".
Now so far as the "social issues" go, the little "can't drive" lady in Sanderson has to get to her Doctor is San Antonio, I'm certain that a "busteetoot", as I think it should be, will be available for any community losing Amtrak service as the LD's are phased out.
Mr. Rattner is "on mark". I await reviewing the Letters that The Times will print regarding his Op-Ed.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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True, I have heard this debit state song and dance as long as I have been around. But, how much of this debit comes from what is sucked in from production in other states. What will these "debit state" people eat if the "credit states" quit farming. How will these high paid "debit state" management types collect their salary if the working bodies in the "credit states" aren't producing? As I well know personally, for most service industries, generally the bill to the customer is about twice the income of the front line employee, and that is talking about service industries. I know personally that when I am billed to a project the bill per hour is in the range of twice my gross pay per hour, and this is fairly typical of most businesses that sell services. I know some of this is office overhead, etc, but my office is my living room, and they sure are not giving me rent for the space. Most of that goes to the overhead, etc that is in New York.
This is why the oh, lookie, lookie we pay more in taxes than we collect from government payments leaves me cold. And then there are all the Yankee retires that come to Florida, etc and are collecting Social Security and such. This money gets counted as government payments to the state so far as this debit/credit thing is concerned.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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First, I think this is the appropriate topic at which to share the exciting news that Amtrak has now placed an order with Siemens for 83 seven car sets, or 581 cars. The Amfleet orders totaled 492 cars, so there is a provision made for fleet expansion.
I don't know who will miss 'em, but with a production line open through 2030, there is opportunity to also replace the '90 vintage Horizons.
A comment I noted at another site was that Amtrak is following the model of the Austrian-Czech Rail-Jet with their separate locomotive and a control cab car placed opposite end.
Considering how I've ridden more miles recently on the OBB than I have Amtrak, this could be very suitable equipment. Lest we forget, Austria only has HighER Speed Rail - just like the Corridor.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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I know it's been a "Flash News Day", what with Hurricane Elsa, rescue called off in Surfside, assassination of Haiti's President, but The Times is silent on this development.
Addendum: the article appears top right page 4 July 8 edition. The headline of "Amtrak To Spend Billions on New Trains" to me infers that some Journal editor holds government $$$, i.e. yours and mine, are being sent down the drain.
I do not hold such to be the case, now if I were to learn that there was to be an order to replace the LD equipment....well that's a whole new ballgame.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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The 83 Siemens train sets will, undoubtedly, enhance the train experience for passengers. However, most all of those train sets will go to the NEC.
I don't agree with Mr. Rattner's concept of "negative balance" states (states where tax payments exceed what taxpayers get back). I think the problem is over taxation, not "negative balances". Several of the states, mentioned by Mr. Rattner, have the highest state income taxes and property taxes in the country. Politicians will attempt to get every drop of blood out of those turnip states.
Robert A. Heinlein:
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.
Richard
Posts: 1909 | From: Santa Rosa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ah, yes, the Heinlein quote. Right on the money. He truly had some good ones. Point on taxes: We lived 1973-1978 in Arlington VA. They made a big point of how they had not increased their tax rate in something like 15 (maybe even longer) years. This is true. They just kept increasing the assessed value of the properties, so your taxes kept going up. Our next door neighbor, who was retired, told us his tax bill was higher than his mortgage was before he got the place paid off. The county spent as if money was not object.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Hopefully the specs on the new equipment will include bigger windows on the coaches and maybe ceiling glass on the lounge-cafes, Budd's last mistake. BTW, I assume that by LD you mean the Superliners, since the East Coast overnights have been re-equippes except for the Amcoaches and cafes. Both can be replaced by an option to this order. Finally; yippee! No more engine change in Washington!
Posts: 510 | From: Richmond VA USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mr. Nicholson, I think the windows will take care of themselves. First, one public safety agency or the other has mandated that windows be sufficient size to allow them to be a means of evacuation - including a stretcher. Further, any of the equipment overseas from which the design is drawn has large windows - just like over here, the Brightline cars.
I think its a "forget it" to a Food Service car patterned after the SAL's Sun Lounge.
Finally, regarding Long Distance equipment, if any more of such is ordered, it should be designed so as to be readilly convertible to Short Distance configurations. That means Single Level and "Cafe" Food Service. Somebody is going to wake up one of these days and realize there are more economical ways to provide transportation of last resort to a selected group of rural areas, i.e. Grand Jct CO but not Rock Springs WY. That economical way is called a bus.
Posts: 9975 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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