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Hi to all again, I was wondering, on Amtrack, are the old gas turbine trains still used much? Did they ever exist in gas turbine multiple unit form? I've heard nearly all modern locomotives and multiple unit cars have been replaced with mostly diesel, diesel-electric and electric only traction systems.
What advantages and disadvantages did the gas turbine have over the diesel?
I know with the diesel its more economical over electric for long distances, doesnt require electrified lines or the power to be turned off for maintanance work,
where's electrics quieter, noise and polution free apart from the fuels being burned back at power station on the national grid. And in theory theres no limit to the maxiumum speed (wattage of traction motors and power supply capacity permitting here).
Maybe the gas turbine was better? But more expensive to run in the long term?
Any ideas?
Cheers to all...
Posts: 16 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2002
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Steve, Amtrak used three types of turbine-powered trains, all in the form of (fairly) dedicated trainsets. The United Aircraft turbotrains, best described by their blunt nose and dome car-style cabs, were retired by 1978 and scrapped. They incorporated a pendulum-style tilting mechanism and had a top speed of 170 miles per hour due to the efficiency and power output of the turbine coupled with light trainset weight. The French turbotrains were purchased for a fresh look in 1973 and 1975. I don't know if "fresh" is a good descriptor for it. Most were retired by the end of 1981. Three were rebuilt in 1987-88 to match the later specifications. The Rohr turboliners used the same basic design as the ANF (French) units but were characterized by their fiberglass nose and flush-fitting headlights. These units entered service in 1976 and were used in a variety of locations including the Chicago-area (Illinois, Michigan, etc.) and Empire services. By the mid '80s most were in exclusive service on the Empire Corridor since they had third rail capability for operation into NY tunnels. There they soldiered on though after fifteen years the turbines began to lose efficiency and drink up fuel. The mid '70s era electronics were also worn out. In 1994, one trainset (power cars 151 and 159) was rebuilt and repainted (white with a red stripe) to push around the ICE outside of electrification. This set remained in service through sometime last year, I believe, since it was overhauled. The rest were removed from service shortly after power car 154 (my guess) created a nice smoky fire in Penn Station. These trainsets are currently housed at Schenectady Super Steel International in the process of a long, drawn-out rebuilding process. Amtrak has accepted the first rebuilt set and is in the proceess of the seventy-sixth round of acceptance testing. Last thing I heard they were undergoing "braking and acceleration testing" based out of Rensselaer. The latest rebuild makes them more efficient, ADA-compliant, and improved the front superstructure for crashworthiness. Top speed will (once Amtrak finishes improvements) be 125 mph making it the fastest fossil-fuel burning train in the world, apparently. They are painted with black noses and blue and grey carbodies, similar to early versions of the Acela scheme. These units will follow the 2150 series whereas the unrebuilt units were in the 150 series. Original delivery date was supposed to be August, 2000, I believe, so they're a little behind schedule. I can't wait to see one, not to mention ride behind one again. It's been a while.
------------------ F40PH #757099-8 March 29, 1976-November 18, 2001 P42DC #53063 November 18, 2001-???
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It won't be the fastest. It'll equal the fastest currently in service - which is in the UK, the HST 125. In fact, they're starting to be replaced (the early ones are over 25 years old now) by fGW Adelentes and Virgin Voyagers, both of which can run at 125mph (both diesel).
Geoff M.
Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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HSTs are not turbine, they are diesel-electrics -- and they are the fastest diesel-electric trainsets ever built. They entered service in the early 1980s and are pretty well worn out.
The one rebuilt New York Turboliner is still in service, but is mostly hauled by a P32DM diesel, with one turbine running to provide hotel power. Its interior is pretty spartan, and except for the big windows and straight sides looks like Amcoaches. I'm hoping the Super Steel turbos will be a bit more luxurious.
Posts: 614 | From: Merchantville, NJ. USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Some thirty years ago gas turbine racing cars were consistent winners in what is called Formula One racing. Very high top speed and rapid acceleration. Eventually banned from auto racing as I recall. I saw them competing at the Grand Prix at LeMans in 1971. They had a very distinctive, loud whine which one could hear coming quite a distance away, even above the roar of the gas engines. Does anyone know/recall hearing if that noise also a feature of these turbo trains? Perhaps there is more space available to muffle it in a locomotive body than an autobody, still with the size a locomotive turbine might need to be... Would be quite something to witness going by at high speed, I think. I find the Acelas startling when they zoom past at top speed.
Posts: 300 | From: Denver, CO USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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"Top speed will (once Amtrak finishes improvements) be 125 mph making it the fastest fossil-fuel burning train in the world" was the statement I was refuting, nothing to do with gas turbines, as in HSTs are also fossil-fuel burning and they go at 125mph!
Geoff M.
Posts: 2426 | From: Apple Valley, CA | Registered: Sep 2000
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All right. My facts are probably either dated for the train's original release or just plain skewed. They don't squeal. Bombardier has begun testing an Acela-esque prototype that moves under turbine power and hits 150+ at the ARA facility in Colorado. As soon as all the unrefurbished trainsets are finished, the "Red Set" (RTL II with 151 and 159) will be overhauled.
Posts: 391 | From: Schenectady | Registered: Jan 2002
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I live in Denver. What and where is an ARA facility? Bombardier? Tell me more, please. I am wondering, perhaps wishfully, about seeing these units being tested.
Ira
Posts: 300 | From: Denver, CO USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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I know with the diesel its more economical over electric for long distances, doesnt require electrified lines or the power to be turned off for maintanance work
Diesel is not more economical than electric trains in terms of operation costs. The only advantage is over capital costs of electrification—once that hurdle is surmounted, it's far, far cheaper to run straight electric.
Gas-turbine's only purpose is to achieve electric RR top speeds without electrification. However, since the top speeds of diesel-electrics seem to be increasing, perhaps gas-turbine will be eclipsed in the future...
BTW, the diesel-electric HST of Britain was tested at a top speed of 143 mph; the prototype diesel Talgo XXI has recently be tested at 152 mph... http://www.talgoamerica.com
What and where is an ARA facility?
It is the chief testing facility for new locomotives, cars and trainsets. It is located in Pueblo, CO.
[This message has been edited by irishchieftain (edited 12-18-2002).]
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OK, boys, settle down...as far as the new Amtrak stuff running at anywhere near 125mph...could someone point me in the general direction of the nearest track with that high of a speed rating; AND fill me in on which changes the National Board of Trans. and/or the Interstate Commerce Commision made to the regulations ALLOWING that kind of speed in the areas you all are referring to...please
Posts: 140 | From: Kirksville, Mo | Registered: Dec 2002
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And whom might you be addressing? I only accept that tone from "forum leaders", whenever they show up, not "new members".
...as far as the new Amtrak stuff running at anywhere near 125mph...could someone point me in the general direction of the nearest track with that high of a speed rating
Simple. The former Pennsylvania RR segment of the Northeast Corridor between NY and Washington has been 125-mph track for about two decades (now with segments permitting 135 mph operation); as far as 150 mph, there's 18 miles of it near the borders of Rhode Island and Massachusetts on the former NHRR Shore Line. Currently, the track between Poughkeepsie and Albany that's supposed to be upgraded for 125-mph operation is now at 110 mph, with Amfleet I cars and P32AC-DM "Genesis II" dual-mode diesel locomotives.
No "new Amtrak stuff" is being referred to here, apart from the Genesis II. The Amfleet I cars and RTL Turboliner sets are decades old; the 125-mph runner has been the Amfleet I, hauled by the AEM-7. Top speed is limited by locomotive performance, actually; should a 125-mph diesel locomotive arrive on the scene, it too would be permitted to run at 125 mph on track that supports it.
AND fill me in on which changes the National Board of Trans. and/or the Interstate Commerce Commision made to the regulations ALLOWING that kind of speed in the areas you all are referring to...please
Allowing? It's a matter of track conditions plus signaling systems. No such entity as the "National Board of Trans" exists; the ICC is defunct. The regulations thereof are drafted and enforced by the Federal Railroad Administration ( http://www.fra.dot.gov ). Most track around the US is CTC-only, upon which the FRA imposes a speed limit of 79 mph. Assuming ideal track conditions, additional signaling systems allow higher speeds, generally speaking.
Incidentally, to Steve 1977: Amtrak has operated three distinct "gas-turbine" trains, the UAC Turbotrain, and two Turboliners, the French RTG and Rohr RTL. UAC and RTG models are defunct.
[This message has been edited by irishchieftain (edited 12-18-2002).]
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