posted
So much has come to light through the Hearings to suggest that Incumbent President Trump, directed, participated, and committed acts that could be considered criminal between the Election (Nov 3, 2020) and the Certification (Jan 6, 2021).
If the person so accused was less than a former president, a grand jury would surely hand up indictments. Therefore, there is all too great a chance a former president will stand indicted of Federal crimes.
The partisans (I know many of such) will cheer should they see a "perp walk" (never mind out on bail an hour later), but would this really be "pro bono patria"?
Yes, a message would be sent; no one is "above the law". But the likelihood of such matter being brought to trial to trial is "slim" and a conviction "nonexistent".
Even if an arrest were to be made tomorrow, the defense could easily "drag things" for another two and a half years. At that time, the President will likely be a Republican, who would instantly pardon Trump. Even if that president were to be Trump himself, he could still grant a pardon.
So my best advice; Dems, have your fun with what amounts to a "televised Grand Jury" between now and November, because that's all it will ever amount to.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Suggest? Not so far. Much of what this illegal committee has scraped together has actually proved the opposite. Never mind the outstanding questions of why both Nancy Pelosi and DC Mayor Muriel Bowser refused Trump’s offer of National Guard troops. If Merrick Garland does somehow use something tenuous at best to concoct a charge particularly when two “impeachments” could not (the second was about January 6, remember), then he is in serious violation of the Constitution.
Posts: 808 | Registered: Mar 2002
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If Bragg does it on his phony charge Tuesday, he really demonstrates that the justice system is shattered. Bad idea to have the people believe that the social contract has been broken.
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We have now had 6+ years of "Get Trump" Enough!!! If they had enough real evidence for anything, there would have long since been trials and sentencing. Even the Keystone Kops could do better than this if there was anything real there.
There are plenty of real crimes out there, both political and non political. Go after them and quit wasting resources and time on this stuff.
Posts: 2945 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Well Messrs. Harris and Helfner, since this topic was last active some eight months ago, the only thing that really has changed is that Joe has not resigned, as I thought he would after delivering the SOTU, and is highly likely to be the Democratic POTUS nominee come next year.
Just when the indictment against Mr. Trump will be handed up is a "who knows", but in the overwhelming Democratic sentiment of New York City, it will.
But the NYPD, with some 34,000 sworn officers that represents a police force that would be the seventh largest army in the world, plus another 16,000 in the NY National Guard that will be "locked and loaded" for deployment, there will be no rerun of Jan 6 (I think Mr. Trump's militiae know that).
But with the inevitable continuances, and with Mr. Trump free on bail (likely confined to the USA with his Passport lifted), the judicial proceedings will drag on through the entire '24 election process ending with a Republican (maybe Mr. Trump himself) moving into 1600. At that time, any judicial proceeding will stop, and Mr. Trump will be given as blanket a pardon as Mr. Nixon was given by President Ford.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Media reports are too conflicting to draw a conclusion right now. But yes; the public at large is sick to death of the “Get Trump” meme (cue Get Smart theme).
Posts: 808 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I have a feeling that the timing of any indictment being handed up is a closely guarded secret. Outside the Judiciary, the NYPD surely has most knowledge. So likely are the logistics to deliver Mr. Trump and his attorneys to New York.
One ritual of the New York judiciary that could well be avoided is the "perp walk" that serves no purpose beyond a display of "we gotcha".
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Helfner, NBC is my TV newssource as well.
Honestly, "if you're gonna nail him", do it for something that matters - theft of government property, mishandling of classified information, coercion of a State official (Georgia), inciting a riot, sedition - and not for some romp with a "Porno Queen" for which some hapless "fall guy" has already done some time.
Mr. Bragg, drop it!
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Possibly getting closer to a drop. The Daily Mail now reporting that the grand jury is going on a scheduled hiatus for a month, without hearing anything related to Trump beforehand.
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I wonder where they possibly got “thirty counts” from. This looks like a great miscarriage of justice with a broken braking system.
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I think the Judiciary, regardless of whether some local DA or the USDOJ, would have been wise to forego this little "romp", for which a "fall guy has already done some time", in favor of something that counts.
I realize there are some here (or at least my Sister) who hold "he's done nothing other than faithfully serve as our 45th POTUS becoming one of our top five", but there are some who hold otherwise. Whatever laws Mr. Trump has broken, if any, should be decided by the applicable level of the Judiciary, and not any level of such seeking to grab headlines and "perp walks".
Finally, however Mr. Trump travels to NY to surrender, it should be done in the most discreet manner possible (not on one certain B-752) with "an in the basement" arrival and in some nondescript rented auto.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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There is no way to be discreet about any travel to NY by Trump, given he still has the right to SS entourage.
Politicization continues, with Pelosi speaking up and saying that “everyone has the right to a trial to prove innocence”, which implies that the Fifth Amendment has been upended and replaced with Code Napoléon under which one is presumed guilty until proven innocent. (Never mind the Fourth Amendment w.r.t. Mar-a-Lago.) Even former FBI director James Comey could not resist tweeting “It’s been a good day” in response to the news.
Alan Dershowitz has taken Trump’s side here, saying of Bragg’s allegations, “(i)n 60 years of practice, this is the worst case of prosecutorial abuse I have ever seen” and declaring that “today, the rule of law in the United States of America died”.
Posts: 808 | Registered: Mar 2002
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A "Media Circus" that simply need not, and should not, be.
Fair Use:
A grand jury handed up the indictment, sought by the office of Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, on Thursday afternoon. The charges aren’t public and are expected to remain sealed until Mr. Trump makes an initial appearance in court, scheduled for 2:15 p.m. on Tuesday. He is first expected to report to the district attorney’s office that morning, when he will be arrested, fingerprinted and photographed.
Mr. Trump is planning to fly from Florida to New York on Monday and spend the night at Trump Tower before heading to the courthouse Tuesday, according to people familiar with his schedule.
Streets surrounding the lower Manhattan courthouse are also expected to be blocked off, officials said. The U.S. Secret Service is expected to accompany Mr. Trump during his time at the courthouse.
You can be sure that Mr. Trump's arrival (at KTBO in a Pvt Jet and not in his B-752) and motorcade will be covered all the way (maybe not while in the Lincoln Tunnel) to Trump Tower. Then the motorcade to the NY County Courthouse, and then as a bailee, barring "interference", to KTBO and "lift off".
All I know is that the NYPD would be the seventh largest standing army on this planet; the protesters, peacful and otherwise, know that as well.
but why...why...why!!!
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Former National Security Adviser John Bolton now voices concern that Bragg’s unwieldy juggernaut could serve as “rocket fuel” for Trump’s campaign.
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Of greater concern will be if the thoughts of this Times contributor come to pass:
Fair Use:
But at least one thing seems clear: Mr. Bragg may have been the first local prosecutor to do it, but he will probably not be the last. Every local prosecutor in the country will now feel that he or she has free rein to criminally investigate and prosecute presidents after they leave office. Democrats currently cheering the charges against Mr. Trump may feel differently if — or when — a Democrat, perhaps even President Biden, ends up on the receiving end of a similar effort by any of the thousands of prosecutors elected to local office, eager to make a name for themselves by prosecuting a former president of the United States.
Talk about how to have a controlled society; be elected POTUS and expect to be prosecuted for "whatever the opposition dreams up".
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Just now, it's"Lift off" from KPBI (Palm Beach International) in "one certain" B752 (Boeing 757-200) with Registration Number N757AF.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: Talk about how to have a controlled society; be elected POTUS and expect to be prosecuted for "whatever the opposition dreams up".
That is exactly what we have had since Trump was nominated. He has been out of office for two years and those trying to take him out still won't give up. From day one of his inauguration, it seems the Democrat Party obsession has been, "We are going to impeach Trump for ___________________." And no matter how much they have tried to find the right thing to fill in the blank, they have never managed to make anything stick.
Posts: 2945 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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All three news networks having "wall to wall". It could have been so easily avoided.
Small chartered private jet aircraft flying into KTBO (Teterboro; NY area "Execuport"), staying somewhere in the Outer Boroughs (Brooklyn has perfectly nice hotels and some sections of Queens as well), and being transported around in non-descript rented autos.
This all could have been avoided; but meantime, sit back and enjoy the show - as I will as soon as I get back from voting (just a "Dogcatcher or two" this year).
addendum 121P CT: all four broadcast networks have now joined the circus.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman: OMG OMG...what a Circus!!!!! .... addendum 121P CT: all four broadcast networks have now joined the circus.
And I wouldn't watch it unless tied to a chair with my eyes glued open.
Posts: 2945 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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Somehow Mr. Harris, I think you and Journal columnist Gerald Baker are "on the same page".
Fair Use:
That we are all subject to the law’s authority doesn’t mean we all feel its weight for every breach of its many proscriptions. Prosecutorial discretion is exercised every day by people like Mr. Bragg. There are no hard-and-fast rules, but it’s a fair bet that most prudential legal brains would caution restraint when considering the prosecution of a former president and current candidate on a charge built on weak evidence and a fragile legal theory that wouldn’t be pursued against anyone else. But in this case there was never any question of exercising “discretion,” since the prosecutor had found a crime and culprit before he had even begun investigating—before he was even elected district attorney in 2021.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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With the release of the indictment and accompanying statement of facts, we can now say that there’s nothing novel or weak about this case. The charge of creating false financial records is constantly brought by Mr. Bragg and other New York D.A.s. In particular, the creation of phony documentation to cover up campaign finance violations has been repeatedly prosecuted in New York. That is exactly what Mr. Trump stands accused of.
The judge and jury will make the ultimate determination, but they will be far from the first to consider this question, and the answer has usually been a guilty verdict.
The public can now read Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg’s indictment against former President Trump, as well as his more voluble “statement of facts,” but the speculation and leaks of recent weeks were well informed. There are few surprises, except perhaps astonishment that Mr. Bragg’s case looks even weaker than we expected.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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The Times has to push the big lie, I see. Everybody knows that Trump was indicted for absolutely nothing.
Posts: 808 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Just think, if Mr. Trump could have seen beyond "L’entreprise, c’est moi" and paid the hush $$$ for his "romp" with Stephanie/Stormy (presuming consent, not a crime in itself) from his personal funds, "we wouldn't be here", or for at least this offense.
If he needed additional funds to "cover" at personal level, then take additional compensation from The Organization, upon which, sorry 'bout that", he would have to pay taxes at individual level, offset by a deduction at Corporate.
How often did I need to counsel clients, who had their businesses incorporated for the provisions of limited liability, that this corporation is a separate entity and that anytime there is a transaction between it and yourself or other non-business party, a taxable event has occurred.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Helfner, I'm inclined to agree with you.
If this action against Mr. Trump, results in dropped charges (nolle prosequi) or an acquittal, guess who POTUS 47 (48 if Joe doesn’t make it) will be?
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Well, E. Jean Carroll may end up getting her pound of flesh, I mean $5 million over “defamation” and the perpetually-redefined “battery”; Trump is appealing (multiple shenanigans by presiding judge et cetera).
Posts: 808 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mr. Helfner, while you and I are well aware of such, I believe that we should clarify, for the possible benefit of any "lurkers" we have around here, the distinction between the matters of EJC v. Trump and the SofNY v. Trump.
These are separate matters; the first matter, EJC, noted is a civil matter for which the maximum penalty would be the $5M awarded the Plaintiff. Even if a criminal act occurred, any alleged act is long past the Stature of Limitations for criminal charges to be pursued.
The second matter, at which discussion at this topic has been directed, SofNY v. Trump, is a criminal, which resulted from a Grand Jury indictment being handed up to the District Attorney for prosecution. In that matter, the criminal trial is set to begin no earlier than Summer 2024, or more than a year from now.
And finally, as is appropriate in any discussion of criminal judicial proceedings, the accused, which is in this case Former President Trump, is presumed innocent until such time that a court of law finds otherwise.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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The second matter is still a violation of Trump’s Fourth Amendment rights since the details remain under seal and should never have been under seal; should be thrown out on that basis alone.
George Santos is getting similar treatment, being arrested for charges that are still “unclear” at the time of writing.
No justice department has the right to shred the US Constitution. This is indeed a political witch hunt.
Posts: 808 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Now the DOJ follows Bragg’s modus operandi with indictments that are not crimes, using tainted grand juries.
Some talking heads (e.g. Rachel Maddow) are actually suggesting that if Trump dropped out of the 2024 race, these “charges” would suddenly become far less severe. That is an admission on their part that this is Soviet-style political persecution.
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More fake charges, all utterly absurd. Accusation of conspiring to defraud the USA out of absolutely nowhere?
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Funny how the Trump charges seem to come out just after some new dirt surfaces on the Biden Crime Family. Hey, I hear Joe finally admits he has SEVEN grandchildren.
Posts: 2945 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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CNN today "rated the strength" of each case against the Former President. Here is as I recall it.
1) Theft of Classified Information 2) Post '20 Conspiracies (today's) 3) Georgia election (if indictment is handed up) 4) Stephanie/Stormy; Trump Organization business funds' misuse.
Now let me throw this out; in the name of "national unity", win or lose next year, Joe PARDONS Trump.
A big difference from Jerry during '74; he had to stand for re-election; for all intent and purpose, neither Joe or Trump do (OK; in theory the loser could run again come '28; come on now, an 82 or 86yo private citizen running?)
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mr. Harris, more directly responding to your immediate, yes; Hunter is indeed an embarrassment, and while at this time, I think Trump will win next year - criminal indictments notwithstanding (don't breathe that around my Lib friends), Hunter is a "drag" on whatever chance Joe would have had in '24.
But please give Joe credit for one thing - loyalty. As soon as Hunter started doing bad stuff - even as Obama's VP - he should have "dissed" him essentially locking him up in Wilmington.
But Joe is loyal, he really hasn't had that much turnover amongst his staff, and sticking with Kamala is "not exactly" improving his '24 chances. Between Hunter and Kamala, the "ship has hit the iceberg".
Finally, we must wonder, considering what a loyal VP Joe proved to be, why Obama "threw him under the bus" during '16 probably escapes many an observer. However, and this is simply my theory, Obama and Hillary "had a deal" in place. The deal was that she would accept a high level and visible position (SECSTATE certainly is) in his administration in which she would serve through the first term. During '13, she would be free to resign thereby not running against him, but allowing her ample time to get ready for '16.
Can't prove it, but I just feel it.
Posts: 10666 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
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If Joe pardons Trump, I will be looking for the next sunrise in the west.
Posts: 2945 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
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