posted
It was a few years ago, I think 2000 or 2001. It was between Columbia Sc. and Charlotte Nc. It was my first train ride ever. I know it was about a possible extension of the Piedmont to Columbia, but I would like any info I can get on it. The reason I'm asking is I found my photos of that today.
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Try this website for the Carolina Association of Passengers and check the 'photo gallery' for photos of the 'South Carolina Demonstration Train'.
If memory serves, the trip ran in September 1999 with NCDOT equipment and the Amtrak amfleet office car on the rear. Note the 'Super Dome' car which is now in excursion service for the Friends of the 261 out of Minneapolis.
The train ran one way Charlotte to Columbia and was supposed to have returned with passengers the following day. However, the return trip was cancelled due to concerns over an approaching hurricane.
These pictures show the train upon it's arrival in Columbia, SC and the intent, I believe, was to build interest for financial support from the state of South Carolina for extending the Carolinian to Columbia from Charlotte.
Then, as now, South Carolina does not seem interested. Perhaps if the train could have extended to Argentina........
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you. I was really young then so I only remember parts of it. I remember the dome, and the office car but that is it. I dug up some of my own photos and that got me interested thank you. By the way great joke. I remember I rode from Columbia to Charlotte, and we made some stops. Thanks again.
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
No problem at all.....and I'm sorry but the governor presented the opportunity for a political snipe too good to let pass by.
I had assumed that your '92' referred to a preference for the northbound Silver Star but am thinking now it may refer to a date of birth maybe?
Regardless, it's nice to have your enthusiasm and interest! I wish that I could have ridden that demonstration train myself.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Then, as now, South Carolina does not seem interested. Perhaps if the train could have extended to Argentina........
LMAO. Funny stuff. ;-)
Posts: 497 | From: Clarksburg, West Virginia | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
How you can you joke about our fine governor? One minute he is a potential presidential candidate and the next, banished to the political scrapheap inhabited by many who had 'soul mates' that were not their wives.
Oh well, wouldn't it be nice if SC figured out how to fund passenger service. Actually it does operate the SC port railway in Charleston that does a nice business switching BMW exports (I believe just Z4's) and imports (all other models) as well as intermodal container shipments. It also handled the rusty rails to Port Royal, SC - near Beaufort. That is now abandoned but would be a good tourist line. It would be logical to use profit from that to help fund passenger rail, but logic and politics don't go together.
The best hope might be to extend one of NC's trains from Charlotte to Columbia and on to Charleston on the NS. While that would make the most sense for an intrastate train, I think the route of the Silver Star is on the Southeast HSR list. We might be waiting a while for that one.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Perhaps if the train could have extended to Argentina........
......or perhaps if the train could have been billed as the "Appalachian Trail Hikers Special"
Posts: 1530 | From: Ocala, FL | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Even better. I agree. I remember they do run those two railroads, but that is very small. I do agree that the line from Port Royal would make a great tourist line, and so would the Carolina Southern line in Myrtle Beech.
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Perhaps if the train could have extended to Argentina........
......or perhaps if the train could have been billed as the "Appalachian Trail Hikers Special"
Actually, that could be the billing for the long proposed (since 1994) and never done much about passenger train to Asheville, NC. Extend it about 40 miles beyond Asheville and it could even drop passengers right on the Appalachian Trail in downtown Hot Springs, NC!
Here's a thought - a train from Columbia to Asheville via Charlotte and Salisbury.....maybe even carrying a through sleeper Asheville to Miami via connection with the Silver Star.
THAT'S a train that would be useful to my family.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Notelvis - Why stop there - just reopen Saluda and run your sleeper directly to Ashville via Spartanburg.
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Those would be great ideas. It is a shame my state can't get on the ball on train travel
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by palmland: Notelvis - Why stop there - just reopen Saluda and run your sleeper directly to Ashville via Spartanburg.
Ahhhhh.....Saluda Mountain would be quite the dream for direct service......however, with the NCDOT paying for any Asheville train, they would want maximum bang for their buck on the North Carolina side of the line......and the scenario I suggested would provide a through sleeper line from Charlotte to Orlando and Miami as well.
You know, at the time they closed Saluda, I was working at a school within earshot of the now closed portion of that line in Zirconia, NC.
The last 'regular' freight train operated over the mountain in December 2002 but I am certain I heard a special movement pass through from my office in April 2003. By January 2004 they had 'railbanked' the line by turning over a rail and pouring a mound of dirt over the end of track on either end of the closed line. My school was 'railbanked' as well.....closing in June 2004. I was transferred to a newer and larger school miles from the nearest railroad at that time.
The tracks remain and there have been periodic rumours of a reopening......but nothing has been substantiated. With each passing winter what it would take to put trains back on that mountain grows more expansive and more unlikely.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
It is feasable from an engineering point of view, though probably not economically (and who knows what is there in the NIMBY department due to people that have moved out to have quiet in the mountains?)to build a new line between just south of Tryon to just south of East Flat Rock that would keep that grade to right at 2.00%. The thing people tend to forget: Saluda Grade is only a small part of a very long climb. It is aloso a one way clim, so there is no potential for a long crest tunnel, although at least one fairly long tunnel and one fairly high bridge on the grade appear to be necessary.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
I meant to say 'expensive' rather than 'expansive'.
However, with George pointing out the growing liklihood of NIMBY opposition, expansive fits and I think I'll stay with it!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wish they would re-open saluda. Actually if you look on the Norfolk Southern annual report map, it is still on it. It is getting more expensive though.
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Amtrak92, thanks to Mr. Norman I have you placed! I should have scoured my old maps of the Seaboard more closely to find you just outside Columbia.
I'm so ashamed!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah. It is a fairly unknown place. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that. The s line is my home line
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by amtrak92: Yeah. It is a fairly unknown place. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that. The s line is my home line
My first ever Amtrak ride (and first solo overnight train trip minus either parent) was aboard the Silver Star from Hamlet to DeLand, FL in November 1975. I don't think SCL called it the 'S' line at that point but there were still alot of old Seaboard guys around still.
I had made a couple or three trips aboard Southern Railway's remaining passenger trains already and had a couple of more trips on Southern's Crescent before it entered the Amtrak timetable afterwards.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
At first I thought such was simply railfanese, but I have learned that A-Line and S-Line is official CSXese.
Posts: 9977 | From: Clarendon Hills, IL USA (BNSF Chicago Sub MP 18.71) | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by amtrak92: I wish they would re-open saluda. Actually if you look on the Norfolk Southern annual report map, it is still on it. It is getting more expensive though.
At the very least, I would hope that Norfolk Southern would reopen Saluda Mountain and institute directional running for eastbound (downgrade) unit coal trains.
The loaded trains would go downgrade to power plants in Belmont, NC and South Carolina (as they did in the past). The empty trains could return via Salisbury and up the less demanding Old Fort Mountain grade. This would relieve some pressure on the Old Fort line without neccessarily adding any upgrade movements on Saluda.
There might even be an outside chance at some trackage sharing agreement with CSX to bring the empties up the former Clinchfield from Spartanburg to Marion, NC and thence to Norfolk Southern there..........but a new connection between the two lines at 'Clinchcross' outside Marion would have to be installed to make this effective.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: [QUOTE]At the very least, I would hope that Norfolk Southern would reopen Saluda Mountain and institute directional running for eastbound (downgrade) unit coal trains.
The loaded trains would go downgrade to power plants in Belmont, NC and South Carolina (as they did in the past). The empty trains could return via Salisbury and up the less demanding Old Fort Mountain grade.
You actually have this backwards.
The empty train might be able to be pulled up Saluda whole, and certainly by doubling the hill.
Getting a loaded coal train down the 4% plus grade would be far more difficult - and dangerous.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I am surprised that an enterprising short line railroad hasn't tried to make a deal with NS for this line. It would need to be a company that had the capital and ability to maintain the railroad with its very tough geography, not to mention train handling expertise.
RJ Corman would be a likely candidate. They helped rebuild CSX gulf coast line after Katrina and are used by many RR to clear and rebuild a line after derailments.
Aside from the coal trains, I think there is a unit train of woodchips from SC going to a paper mill near Asheville. For Corman to be interested, there would probably have to be some industrial development opportunites in the Spartanburg or Asheville - certainly not much in between.
How would you like to ride Corman's 'Old Kentucky Dinner Train' up Saluda? I wonder how many cars their Chinese built 2-10-2 steam engine (new 1986) could pull?
Posts: 2397 | From: Camden, SC | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Saluda: This line is very expensive to operate. That is why NS decided that it would be cheaper to detour trains through Salisbury than to keep this line in service, that despite Ridgecrest being at a higher elevation than the high point on the line via Saluda, which is NOT at Saluda. Therefore, I can't see RJ Corman or anybody else being interested in it unless there is a lot of on-line business, in which case NS would reopen it themselves.
Considering the power used on the Carolian Special in steam days, and the few, maybe one, trip up the grade during Southern's steam program, I would guess that the 2-10-2 would likely be able to haul no more than 3 to 4 cars.
Posts: 2808 | From: Olive Branch MS | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think even with a lack of business a good short line could easily handle it. I saw a part of it a year ago in Inman, it was in fairly good condition there, gates and lights, but no trains. If a short line would take over, you might get some thru traffic, plus I think there are a few industries over that section of rail.
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Haul the empties up Saluda. It just seems that NS would enjoy some capacity benefits from having that line in service. Surely someone else at NS is thinking that they may want that railroad again someday. Otherwise why hold on to it?
Interesting that RJ Corman is mentioned. Their 'Old Kentucky Dinner Train' is hauled by a pair of ex-Southern Railway FP-7's. One of them was previously numbered #6141 and it routinely worked out of Asheville hauling passenger trains #3 & #4 between Asheville and Salisbury until their discontinuance in 1975. After that, the 6141 and 6133 teamed up to haul a weekend excursion train to Old Fort for another two or three autumns.
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think someone is saving Saluda, and that NS can use it. But I think it is in a bad state of repair in places. I thought the FP-7's were doing that train too
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by amtrak92: I think someone is saving Saluda, and that NS can use it. But I think it is in a bad state of repair in places. I thought the FP-7's were doing that train too
Proposals for saving the line as a tourist operation have surfaced. Norfolk Southern has shown no interest in allowing that to happen.
George......photos from the steam days of passenger railroading on Saluda generally (but not exclusively) show 7 or 8 car trains with a 4-8-2 on the point and a 2-10-2 pushing at the rear. This would suggest that your tonnage estimate a few posts back would be pretty accurate.
In the waning days of the Norfolk Southern Excursion program....perhaps in the last two or three years...... it seems like there were a handful of trips (3 to 5 maybe) that the 611 made up Saluda Mountain.
I was on location in downtown Saluda in October 1994 when the 611 came up the mountain for the last time. (NS had announced the termination of it's steam program just a few weeks earlier) The locomotive came up the hill with what seems like four coaches unassisted. Three diesels followed with the remaing 10 or 11 passenger cars on that excursion. The train was rejoined just west of downtown Saluda where the Saluda depot was originally located.
The train then continued upgrade to East Flat Rock, Hendersonville, and Asheville.
The 611 made a couple or three more weekend excursions that fall and then ferried from Birmingham to Roanoke one last time under her own power......however that sunny late October afternoon at Saluda was the last time I saw her in steam.
George - would the highest point be between Biltmore and Arden where the line passes underneath the Blue Ridge Parkway or is the high point near East Flat Rock?
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Saluda is one of the toughest places to run passenger trains no doubt. I have an old timetable, from the Southern, with the Carolina Special running on Saluda with the consist, I'll post back when I find it
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
At the end, in 1968, the remnants of the Carolina Special operated up Saluda Mountain with 2 FP-7's and two coaches.
It was only slightly overpowered!
I never saw the Carolina Special on Saluda Mountain......just pictures. I did, however, witness the train a couple of times in Marshall, NC between Asheville and Knoxville. It seems like here is was only one FP-7 for the two coaches.
BUT.....that's a memory that is over 40 years old and I was only 6 at the time. I could recognize my F units though from train-watching with my grandfather!
-------------------- David Pressley
Advocating for passenger trains since 1973!
Climbing toward 5,000 posts like the Southwest Chief ascending Raton Pass. Cautiously, not nearly as fast as in the old days, and hoping to avoid premature reroutes. Posts: 4203 | From: Western North Carolina | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
My time table from October 30th 1966 has it down as 2 coaches, and a 10-6 sleeper, it looks like it took about 2 hrs and 30 minutes. At that time it terminated in Columbia Union Station
Posts: 465 | From: elgin (s-line) | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
