RAILforum: Sunset Fans: Is This A Record?

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Posted by mrlithian (Member # 1129) on :

The Sunset Limited departed Orlando on Tuesday, 3/12/02 and arrived in LA on Friday, 3/15 ...

*** NINE HOURS and 11 minutes LATE! ***

Our April travel plans on the Sunset are being changed, and we are now planning to spend the night in a LA hotel, rather than hope to be somewhere north of Morro Bay.

Say what you will about the glory of Amtrak and its employees; write and plead with your Congresspeople about saving Amtrak; stand up and be counted when they ask for a show of support for long-distance Amtrak trains -- I, too, have done all those things.

But I ask you: Honestly, how shall we support a carrier who can't even get to scheduled destination within a reasonable amount of time on its own published schedule?

This goes beyond blind (yet willing) support for Amtrak -- this problem is fundamental. There will be those here who'll say we should just chill out and realize that trains arrive late and that's that. There will be others who will say Well, ya know, Amtrak employees are on the bubble and their poor performance should be overlooked cuz their jobs are in jeopardy.

I disagree.

As long as Amtrak cannot arrive within a reasonable time, somewhere near the printed schedule, no one (other than railfanners) will ever take them seriously.

Awhile back, a poster here suggested trashing all the timetables and instead saying that "the train will arrive sometime in the afternoon" or "before midnight" or similar.

Heck, even with that kind of leeway, the Sunset's 3/15 arrival would still be noteworthy.

NINE HOURS+ late ....

P.S. For those of you who think I'm picking on Amtrak, check the ontime averages for the Sunset into LA for Jan, Feb, and March (so far). Not a pleasant picture.

[This message has been edited by mrlithian (edited 03-17-2002).]

Posted by cajon (Member # 40) on :

For whining railfans it's not a record, just more of the same. How do you know it's all Amtraks fault. It's not as if they run on their own tracks being stuck w/ "host" RRs. Did you even bother to find out what really happened?

Posted by F40PHR231 (Member # 1350) on :

Two words.

Union Pacific.

Posted by paulfnshore (Member # 1201) on :

Metrolink is also going after them for bad otp

Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :

Mrlithian, the on-time issue is indeed fundamental as you say, but unfortunately in most cases Amtrak's delays are outside Amtrak's control. The vast majority of delays are caused by freight traffic. There are fewer tracks in service than there were when Amtrak was created, so more trains are competing in a smaller space.

To paraphrase a popular campaign slogan "It's the infrastructure, stupid." There is no money to expand the antiquated infrastructure, so the trains run later and later....

Theproblem is the average Amtrak passenger doesn't understand that so Amtrak gets blamed first.

------------------
Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

The Del Monte Club Car

Posted by mrlithian (Member # 1129) on :

Mr Toy: Thanks for your response -- unlike Mr Cajon, you've at least presented a cogent, civilized, and informed reason for such a notable delay. I had no idea that Amtrak was so low on the track-use totem pole when it comes to the freight carriers, nor did I fully realize that the current infrastructure simply can't handle Amtrak's needs.

I AM just an average Amtrak passenger, perhaps clueless, but willing to learn and listen to those with more experience. I fear that other average passengers will not be so accomodating, and will instead just bash Amtrak for late arrivals and vow to avoid them in the future. That spells trouble, and it's something Amtrak management should be worried about.

Mr Cajon: And did YOU even bother to read the entire post? Or did you stop at the second paragraph? I'm not a railfan in this case -- I'm A PAYING CUSTOMER, get it? As such, I expect to get value for my hard-earned money, not an arrival time that's nine hours late. Because you've shown a remarkable inability to grasp the facts, let me say it again: As long as Amtrak cannot arrive within a reasonable time, somewhere near the printed schedule, no one (other than railfanners) will ever take them seriously.

As for finding out what really happened: is it incumbent on paying passengers to ascertain the CAUSE of the delay? Will that make my incredibly late arrival any more palatable? Will I be happier and more forgiving if I've missed important connections simply because I know the reason for the delay? I doubt it. Late-arriving passengers (and those seeking reasons to disband Amtrak) are only going to complain about the delay -- NOT the reasons for it.

You must be part of Amtrak management or customer service. You sound suspiciously like the rude and defensive Amtrak person I talked to on the phone about this (while trying to find out the reasons for the delay).

Do me a favor and keep the name-calling to yourself.

[This message has been edited by mrlithian (edited 03-18-2002).]

Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :

I seem to recall that when Amtrak was formed back in 1971, its raison d'etre was to relieve the freight railways from the "burden" of providing passenger services. I believe the deal was that either the freight railways participated in Amtrak or they would be required to run a passenger service. A few did not join at first (I believe the Rio Grande and Southern) but eventually no freight railway wanted to be in the passenger business. The point I'm making is that either Amtrak continues to exist in its present form, or UP, BNSF etc. MUST provide passenger service to at least what is currently provided by Amtrak. Of course this will never happen as the freight railways are too powerful and have many friends in Congress. So probably Amtrak will limp along in its present form for at least a few years longer until someone comes up with a better way to run a railway.

Posted by Konstantin (Member # 18) on :

It may not be Amtrak's fault that their trains are so late, but it is not the customer's fault either. It is Amtrak's problem, and they should deal with it. Customers paid Amtrak based upon their published schedule. If Amtrak cannot keep the schedule, even if it is not their fault, it is still their problem and they should have to deal with the problems, not the paying customer.

For a long time, I have viewed Amtrak's schedules as a sham. I think Amtrak need to tell their customers the truth. All of their published schedules need disclaimers in very visible places that give typical on-time statistics and let the potential customers know the truth about when they might arrive at their destination. Amtrak needs to quit hiding the facts about their on-time status. Railfans like us know the truth, but the general public does not. And if the general public is paying for it, they deserve the right to know the truth.

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Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale)
www.geocities.com/evrr

Posted by DisbandAmtrak (Member # 1429) on :

I completely agree with mrlithian, it is not the paying customer's problem to worry over the poor, abused Amtrak employees or that ol' meany Union Pacific. It is Amtrak's problem to get its act together, not take out their problems out on paying customers or else people will start losing even more sympathy for Amtrak.

Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :

"Amtrak needs to quit hiding the facts about their on-time status. Railfans like us know the truth, but the general public does not. And if the general public is paying for it, they deserve the right to know the truth."

Does this apply everywhere? I've been following the SW Chief's (#3) performance for a long time, and only once-in-a-while does it run very late. I live towards the LA end the route, and the westbound trains only come through 5-25 minutes late. In fact, westbound out of New Mexico, the trains run EARLY quite often. I was in ABQ a month ago, and the Chief pulled in 45 minutes early.
Amtrak's website features a train status page for their paying customers. I don't think it "lies" to the passengers.

Posted by cajon (Member # 40) on :

To the whiners: If you're not part of the solution you're a BIG part of the problem. Complain all you want here. Sad fact is those in position to do something about it will never see it.
To mrlithian:
Which part of the problem w/ host RRs don't you understand? Why put ALL the blame on Amtrak & the employees. Do you think they enjoy being that late?

Posted by DC2001 (Member # 542) on :

Perhaps the worst part of this whole story is that nine hours late is nowhere near a record for late arrivals. I can recall a 26-hour late train once (yes, two hours more than a day late), not necessairily the Sunset though.

Amtrak does have major problems with timekeeping on Union Pacific rails that are UP's fault (BNSF generally does better), and this cannot be blamed on Amtrak. The fact that it's somebody else's fault, however, is of little comfort to Amtrak passengers on hours-late trains. Union Pacific is often to blame (Amtrak does have it's own schedule problems, too), but as Konstantin pointed out, it's Amtrak's problem to deal with. Thing is, Amtrak has been quite unable to deal with UP over this issue (and with the uncertainty over what's going to happen this fall, I don't see this changing much anytime soon).

One interesting item is that the Sunset Limited may run on-time (or something close to it) during holiday periods (ie, over Christmas) when there is little or no freight traffic to get in the way. So, the train can make its schedule, if allowed to do so.

Posted by rresor (Member # 128) on :

Hey Cajon (or maybe that's "cojones"?), some of us whiners DO let Amtrak know. I've collected about $150 in vouchers so far, and I'm sure there'll be more.

Here's the bottom line: in transportation (as in any service business), perfection is the only acceptable standard. Do it right less than 100% of the time, and people will complain. If you don't like that, find another occupation. Those of us in the business just have to put up with it, since none of us is perfect.

If an airline flight is delayed, I'll complain. If I get a bad meal in a restaurant, I'll complain. As for Amtrak, I concur with several of the opinions in this thread. I wouldn't recommend Amtrak to a non-railfan without putting many caveats on my recommendation. As far as I'm concerned, the only place Amtrak offers "serious" service is in the Northeast, and that is being eroded rapidly by service failures due to deferred maintenance.

Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :

Eric is right about the Chief. I was on it last November and it was very early into ABQ. The Chief has a better chance to arive on time than the Sunset. The Chief is allowed to speed along at 90 mph on certain parts of the route, the Sunset's maximum is only 70. The Chief runs on the BNSF mainline double track transcon for most of the trip.(especially in the west) The Sunset travels on the old SP line which is not the mainline transcon of the UP. (I think it is still single track too) Anyway, don't the freight railroads have to give priority to Amtrak if it is within a certain "time window" (usually on time)? Every time I've been on a late Amtrak train it just seems to get later and later. And this is almost always due to dispatchers putting a slow frieght, that normally runs behind an ontime Amtrak train, in front. I've heard that freight railroads get some incentives if Amtrak trains run on time. Is this true? It always amazes me to hear how late the Sunset is. Something has to be done to fix Amtrak's consistently worst on time performing intercity train. By the way, why does the Empire Builder seem to always be the best on time intercity train? (less frieght traffic?)

Forgot to mention. On that November Southwest Chief trip, because we were on time, all freights had to wait for us, even Z trains! I heard the dispatcher on my scanner more than once say,"we have to clear the line for #3!"

Posted by Eric (Member # 674) on :

"I've heard that freight railroads get some incentives if Amtrak trains run on time. Is this true?"

Yes, this is true. I don't know how much Amtrak pays, though. The January 1995 TRAINS magazine had a story about it which you might want to try and locate for more info.

Posted by Steve4031 (Member # 1517) on :

I rode the sunset last summer, and both times experienced significant delays. The UP was to blame for both because freights broke down on the main line coming into El Paso. On the WB trip, a private car on the back of the #1 contributed to the problem by setting of hotbox detectors on two occassions.

Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :

RE Empire Builder - I was on it a couple of years ago. It was two hours late by the time we passed Essex (Westbound), but we managed to arrive in Seattle exactly on time. Heavy padding is probably the answer.

Geoff M.

Posted by NorTex (Member # 1460) on :

I agree the average passenger has no idea why their train is running late, and therefore blames Amtrak. I think Amtrak should announce when there will be a delay and the reason for it. I've never seen them do this.

When I've asked a crew member about why the train is late, I usually get a mumbled answer that may or may not make sense to someone who isn't a railroad person. Why not just be open about it. The public should understand the bind Amtrak is in on some of these problems.