posted
In the thirty one years that I have been following the Corporation through all it's "perils of Pauline", I believe that the present is its darkest hour.
Comments, anyone?
TheAmtrakMole Member # 1698
posted
Does this thread really need to be posted here? Isn't the posting of this same exact thread at Trainorders.com and Railroad.net enough? Is this waste of bandwith really necessary?
------------------ ---The Amtrak Mole ---All your PCs are belong to trash
Mr. Toy Member # 311
posted
Well, Gilbert, they say its always darkest before the dawn. And if I may continue the play on words, I think the concept of long-term planning for Amtrak is finally beginning to dawn on Congress.
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
This minor embarassement over the Acela Express is just a blip. The NEC is simply too essential to the transportation network in the Washington-New York area to suffer much from it.
The real threat to Amtrak is the often talked about cutting of the long-distance trains. The darker days had been (and will be) when these trains were made less than daily or discontinued entirely.
Amtrak will survive this latest setback, however, survival is not enough. The national system desparately needs proper investment. This means the funds to increase frequencies, properly maintain equipment, and improve infrastructure. Although we can only look to the taxpayers to get this started, I firmly believe a better rail system will attract more paying customers.
This will be unpopular but I also think that "First Class" travellers should pay the full cost of their trip. Generally, those travelling in coach are the ones who really need affordable train service.
Konstantin Member # 18
posted
I think Amtrak is not any darker than they have been, it is just coming out in the open. This may be just what is needed to finally get something big done about improving Amtrak.
Ken V, I agree with you about your "unpopular" statement on first class.
------------------ Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale) www.geocities.com/evrr
Ira Slotkin Member # 81
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken V:
The real threat to Amtrak is the often talked about cutting of the long-distance trains. The darker days had been (and will be) when these trains were made less than daily or discontinued entirely.
Amtrak will survive this latest setback, however, survival is not enough. The national system desparately needs proper investment. This means the funds to increase frequencies, properly maintain equipment, and improve infrastructure. Although we can only look to the taxpayers to get this started, I firmly believe a better rail system will attract more paying customers.
I concur with your assessment, Ken. Well said. I don't even think of this Acela issue as an embarassment. Nor do i think of the country's struggles to maintain a system a "perils of Pauline" ... circumstance. That points to some evil villan (sp?) and a helpless, innocent Miss. I think there is broadbased complicity and broadbased denial involved in our system (macro and micro) failure. In this Acela case a problem was discovered and rather than a cover up - ala Firestone, Enron, Watergate, or... or ... or ... - the equipment is pulled and repaired ASAP.
More disturbing (vs embarassment) is the nation's unwillingness to ensure adequately funded, reasonably priced, safe, fast, widely available, reliable national rail passenger services of all classes.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
posted
Sorry, Mr. Mole, but this does appear to be a lively topic not only here but also,over at the other two boards you cite at which I acknowledge origination of this same topic thread
CK Member # 589
posted
As long as Mr. Gunn is leading the way there is hope. Should he resign before mass improvements are completed system wide, that may well signal the arrival of Amtrak's darkest hour.
striperjack Member # 1636
posted
I belive this is a dark hour for Amtrak, but being around since 1935 I have seen many dark hours,my father worked for NYNH&HRR all his life and we saw all the troubles there. But during all these times there always seems to be small spark that lites the fire and we get through it. I hope and pray Mr Gunn is the spark that is needed now. I know this may be too simple an answer but it is how I feel. Thank You Jack M PS Mr Norman I enjoy your posts on all sites and learn a lot from them.
PullmanCo Member # 1138
posted
Ken,
Pardon me, but what are you talking about???
My last several trips have been aboard either the CZ or the Grand Canyon. My son and I have been First Class on all those trips, and in all save one segment, we've been in a deluxe bedroom.
As I recall, I am paying on the order of $400 a night for a 42 sq ft compartment and 3 meals a day for us. That amount is over and above the rail transportation cost.
Trust me ... at 400 a night I can get some pretty splendiferous fixed site hotel service.
Now, what studies have you seen recently that show the actual cost of First Class service on the line haul runs to be above what I'm paying for it???
Show me the paper (or the electrons).
John
quote:Originally posted by Ken V: ---big snip--- This will be unpopular but I also think that "First Class" travellers should pay the full cost of their trip. Generally, those travelling in coach are the ones who really need affordable train service.
------------------ The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
irish1 Member # 222
posted
sleeper passengers are paying way more than their fare share. all you have to do is look at the coach prices especially in the rail sale section. so i really disagree with your statement.
Konstantin Member # 18
posted
Irish1 and PullmanCo, compare the amount of passengers that a coach can hold versus the amount of passengers that a sleeper holds.
------------------ Elias Valley Railroad (N-scale) www.geocities.com/evrr
Ken V Member # 1466
posted
quote:Originally posted by PullmanCo: Ken,
Pardon me, but what are you talking about???
My last several trips have been aboard either the CZ or the Grand Canyon. My son and I have been First Class on all those trips, and in all save one segment, we've been in a deluxe bedroom.
As I recall, I am paying on the order of $400 a night for a 42 sq ft compartment and 3 meals a day for us. That amount is over and above the rail transportation cost.
Trust me ... at 400 a night I can get some pretty splendiferous fixed site hotel service.
Now, what studies have you seen recently that show the actual cost of First Class service on the line haul runs to be above what I'm paying for it???
Show me the paper (or the electrons).
John
John,
As I'm sure you expected, I have no studies or reports to quote indicating that "First Class" passengers are paying less than the full cost of their trips. In fact, there have been so many contradictory items published regarding the true cost of travel on Amtrak that I don't think any of them can be taken at face value. Even the figures used by the Amtrak Reform Council (now there's a great name for a government committee) for per passenger loss by train have been called into serious question and legitimately so.
I agree that "First Class" on Amtrak is by no means a bargain and it is, as you indicated, far less than "splendiferous". Perhaps the "First Class" passenger is already paying more than their fair share for accomodations. I also feel that "First Class" passengers should not pay an undue premium. My comment was directed more at the travel portion of the fare.
It is my opinion that, while the coach passenger tariff should be subsidized through taxpayer dollars, the "First Class" passenger should not receive the same subsidy.
Whenever I've travelled overnight on an Amtrak train I have always gone "First Class" and have grumbled about the price. Still, that was my choice, and I shouldn't expect someone else to foot the bill (in any part) for that choice.
PullmanCo Member # 1138
posted
Let's see...
A superliner I has 9 standard bedrooms upstairs (I've stripped out the porter's section), and 5 deluxe bedrooms. Downstairs, it has 4 standard, 1 family, and 1 handicap bedroom.
9 x 2 =18 5 x 3 =10 (my wife, my son, and I have done this.. so no whimpering) 5 x 3 = 15 NOT 10!!! JP Edit 8-27-02 From the Professor Tom Lehrer song ... Hooray for New Math, New Math; it's so simple, so very simple that only a child can do it!! 4 x 2 = 8 4 x 1 = 4 2 x 1 = 2 Total capacity: 47 (JP NOT 42) passengers.
Now, a coach has what ... 84 seats??
Konstantin: Pound sand. $400 a night more than justifies the halving of capacity.
John
quote:Originally posted by Konstantin: Irish1 and PullmanCo, compare the amount of passengers that a coach can hold versus the amount of passengers that a sleeper holds.
------------------ The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
[This message has been edited by PullmanCo (edited 08-27-2002).]
PullmanCo Member # 1138
posted
Ken,
First, when my porter is up to speed, the service in First Class more than compensates for the footprint.
IF Amtrak is going to re-price Coach/First Class rail fares (a la pre-Amtrak tariffs, where First Class was 150% of coach fare), then I expect the accomodation fare to be repriced downwards.
My gut tells me the Amtrak is recovering any subsidy in the accomodation charge.
Have a good week , John
quote:Originally posted by Ken V: John,
---snip--- It is my opinion that, while the coach passenger tariff should be subsidized through taxpayer dollars, the "First Class" passenger should not receive the same subsidy.
---snip---
------------------ The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
CNJ Member # 1465
posted
It is my opinion that ALL tranportation modes in this country are currently operating on very tenuous ground.
Airlines, because since 9/11 more than 10% of the population do not want to fly.
Amtrak: Because of the lack of congressional commitment for operational subsidies and for internal mis-management.
Greyhound: Well...would you want to travel cross-country on a bus??? Not me thanks....
[This message has been edited by CNJ (edited 08-18-2002).]
jamshid Member # 1516
posted
I have not been to the US and I have not traveled by Amtrak but there are plenty of information and facts about Amtrak and other foreign, mostly European railroads in the web. As a train fan and outside viewer I think the following problems are contribute to the present condition of Amtrak: 1- I know Amtrak is a national railroad there, but it mainly uses freight operators’ right of way, which they are far from good conditions of track that they are needed for a dedicated high-speed service. And receives small amounts of budget that is needed for its name! The more nationalized railroads are always the more successful ones. And governors should subsidize them. (You are referred to fate of British railways, which after a short honeymoon with privatization they are going to re-nationalize it!) In spite of other modes of transportation (by road as well as by air) there are many hidden benefits, which are jointed with railroads that cannot be taken into account by private sector operators! But it can save a large amount of public budget. I list some hidden benefits: a) Demographical comparisons show with good railroad services and enough capacity many lives can be saved from fatal car accidents. But who can take it in to account it? How much bucks should be paid for an individual life? b) There is a same reasoning for healing wounded peoples in car crashes, but it can be more easily taken in to account. c) Much fuel saving can be done by railroads. And railroads are more environment friend than other modes. (How mach will cost our impact to environment?) - A simple comparison: Are the total operating cost of subways or LRTs paid by passengers? Only 5 to 30 percent of costs compensate by tickets fares but no one can refer subways to as non-economical solutions and authorities wisely invest on them! - Forgot JAPAN, FRANCE, SPAIN and GERMANY, First Chinese Maglev train have been operated, Korea has its TGVs on dedicated right of way but AMTRAK still relays on diesel electric hauled trains on freight tracks, at least who cares about track cant deficiencies. (Except ACELA which is operated in exclusive right of way) Also there are small commuter companies are still using 50s to 70s leased locomotives.
2- US rolling stock builders have not a clear experience on manufacturing high-speed rolling stocks. Using giant 30 metric tons axle load monsters, which equipped with axle hung traction motors; on high-speed services is a nightmare to many whom know a little bit about high-speed rolling stocks. It was very clear that giant SDP40Fs and E60s were going to derail! One of two major loco builders had not the technology of new proven AC-AC technology and its new products are relying on Siemens. And the other uses obsolete GTO technology where even third world railroads order IGBT ones! “ Maybe Canadian based BOMBARDIER after acquiring ADtranz can afford it!”
MPALMER Member # 125
posted
Pullman Co,
What did you mean by the following:
<<5 x 3 =10 (my wife, my son, and I have done this.. so no whimpering)>>
Did you mean to say 5 x 3 = 15, or 5 x 2 = 10, not that it changes your main point (but it does affect car capacity)
MP
PullmanCo Member # 1138
posted
Thanks for catching my error, M.
Edited the original post. Now the ratio looks even better
John
quote:Originally posted by MPALMER: Pullman Co,
What did you mean by the following:
<<5 x 3 =10 (my wife, my son, and I have done this.. so no whimpering)>>
Did you mean to say 5 x 3 = 15, or 5 x 2 = 10, not that it changes your main point (but it does affect car capacity)
MP
------------------ The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
posted 
, John