RAILforum: Is it really true? LA to Chicago slower?

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Posted by Gas Pumps (Member # 1630) on :

I have heard that Amtrak takes longer to run from Los Angeles to Chicago than it did over 50 years ago behind a steam engine. Is that really true? Anyone with old timetable info?

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Posted by atsf3751 (Member # 1538) on :

Santa Fe's Chicago-LA trains made the trip in 39.5 hours. The Southwest Chief is on a 41 hour schedule. It's a bit slower, but not a huge difference, although the train is probably later far more often than the Chief or El Capitan ever was.

Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :

39 3/4 to be precise... for both the Super Chief and the City of Los Angeles.

What I did not realize, until I took the Grand Canyon this fall, is how much time Amtrak uses at Albuquerque and the freight station west of Kansas City to work the mail and express.

Kind of sort of ironic, really. If you watch the progress of the Grand Canyon through Kansas City, it stops at Union Station for passengers ... it stops at the fuel rack at Argentine for crew change, and it stops at the freight station for mail and express.

Takes 3-4 hours to get across Kansas City.

John

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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations

Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :

Mr. Pullman--

Grand Canyon=Southwest Chief=Amtrak 3-4

The "Kansas City mail stop" is at DeSoto, Kansas some 40 miles West of KC.

Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :

A note to remember! While the Super Chief did do the run faster, it didn't stop at nearly the amount of stations the Southwest Chief does. The Santa Fe had the Super Chief, El Capitan (these two later combined, San Francisco Chief, Chief (later eliminated) Grand Canyon, and many more. Each train had different stations it stopped at as well as some overlapping stations (some even took the Belen route!). But this was spread up by many trains. The Super Chief was an express, stopping at only a select few stations. The Southwest Chief has to stop at them all, cause there's no other train to help ease the load!

Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :

When I recently traveled on the westbound Southwest Chief, it took an astounding two and a half hours to attach freight and mail cars at Chicago.

By the time I stepped off the train at Albuquerque during its "service stop," we were running over five hours late.

The window of my sleeping compartment was fairly dirty, though. So I was happy to see a cleaning crew methodically moving along the platform, scrubbing down each car.

But when I returned to the sleeper, my window was as filthy as ever. The crew had only washed one side of the train!

I don't know how much it had to do with the lateness of the hour. But you gotta love those unions.

[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 08-21-2002).]

Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :

Gilbert,

First, yes. Considering how much M&E works 3-4, considering WHAT I KNEW of Union Pacific "Cities" service, and what I remember as a 16 year old being sent to my cousins' in Albuquerque from LA in 1973 for Christmas ... Amtrak has NO justification in using the term "Chief" anymore! It disparages the Chief of the 20s, early 30s, and even on up to train-off in 68, as well as the Super/El Cap.

Second, I just used Rand McNally Tripmaker to map roads that I would use (as a Kansas Citian) on the south side of the Kaw, to parallel the AT&SF tracks from Lawrence, through DeSoto, into KC Union.

29 miles.

DeSoto is only 6 miles west of K-7 highway, which connects Lansing/Leavenworth/Fort Leavenworth with Olathe. At this point, I count DeSoto as in the "I can have a luxury house and commute into Downtown" suburbia distance.

I'm out that way this weekend for Boy Scout leader stuff at Naish Scout Reservation. I can always do the drive for fun

Oh ... I can remember, as late as three years ago, when Amtrak worked the Mail and Express cars AT Union Station. They would generally cut off 4-6 road-railers and 1 express box.

John

quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
Mr. Pullman--
Grand Canyon=Southwest Chief=Amtrak 3-4
The "Kansas City mail stop" is at DeSoto, Kansas some 40 miles West of KC.

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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations

Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :

From the October 25, 1959 Public Timetable (labeled Ticket Agent Edition) ...

LA-Chicago trains were...

Chief
Super Chief/El Capitan
Grand Canyon

The STOPS, Flag Stops and Scheduled but Conditional stops (* or @) for trains 17 and 18 (shared train numbers for the Super Chief and El Capitan were...

CHICAGO DEARBORN, JOLIET, Streator, Chillicothe, Galesburg*, FORT MADISON & SHOPTON, KANSAS CITY, NEWTON@, Hutchinson*, DODGE CITY, GARDEN CITY, Lamar*, LA JUNTA, Trinidad*, RATON, LAS VEGAS, LAMY, ALBUQUERQUE, GALLUP, WINSLOW, FLAGSTAFF, WILLIAMS, ASH FORK, SELIGMAN, NEEDLES, BARSTOW, Victorville*, SAN BERNADINO, PASASDENA and LAUPT.

The Super served neither Lawrence nor Topeka; that was for the lowly Grand Canyon.

Funny, but that list SURE LOOKS LIKE the current station list for Amtrak's Grand Canyon, Trains 3 & 4.

I'm sure glad my late grandparents kept their timetables as souvenirs! Lots of good information in them

So, SWC... sorry ... wrong answer. 10 yards and loss of 2 downs.

John
who means what he says in his sigline.

quote:
Originally posted by Southwest Chief:
A note to remember! While the Super Chief did do the run faster, it didn't stop at nearly the amount of stations the Southwest Chief does. The Santa Fe had the Super Chief, El Capitan (these two later combined, San Francisco Chief, Chief (later eliminated) Grand Canyon, and many more. Each train had different stations it stopped at as well as some overlapping stations (some even took the Belen route!). But this was spread up by many trains. The Super Chief was an express, stopping at only a select few stations. The Southwest Chief has to stop at them all, cause there's no other train to help ease the load!

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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations

Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :

Does anyone remember the "Texas Chief" in the early days of AMTRAK? Back then, the Southwest Chief (which was still called the "Super Chief") did not serve Topeka and Lawrence, but took whatever ATSF subdivision it was which connected KC with Emporia via a more direct route. The Texas Chief then continued from Newton south through Wichita and eventually to Oklahoma City, where it met up with the current Heartland Flyer route. I wish AMTRAK would bring back the Texas Chief -- it was a MUCH faster route from CHI to Fort Worth than the Texas Eagle is, and also served places like Ponca City, Perry, and Guthrie, OK (which have 0 AMTRAK service now) -- nowadays, to get from Chicago to Oklahoma City, you have to take a circuitous route through Arkansas and N Texas on the Eagle, and then you may or may not make your connection in FTW to the Heartland Flyer, when you then have to backtrack to the north to get to OKC!

Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :

CORRECTION to my last post -
At some point in the early 70's, the Texas Chief was rerouted onto the Lawrence-Topeka subdivision on its way to OK and TX, but the Super Chief continued to take the more direct route between KC and Emporia that I mentioned.

Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :

I stand corrected!

Per Aug '64 Guide, KC Un Sta 449.4; DeSoto 473.7 or 24.3 miles.

Otherwise, totally concur with the sentiments expressed by "Mr. Pullman". The excellent, circa 1962, night photo recently in TRAINS as part of their LAUPT (whoops, LAUS nowadays)article of 1-18 (Super) and 2-18 (Cap) lined up together IS for real - "been there done that".

Lastly, lest we forget what was ATSF 3-4; the accomodation Mail & Express train Chi-Amarillo-LA showing passengers carried only KC-Gallup. How prophetic - even the via Amarillo routing could well be in Amtrak's future.

Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :

Gilbert,

Yea and Verily on seasonal sections of Train 18 ...

One of my fond childhood memories was that of the KHJ-TV afternoon kids show "Engineer Bill." The actor, who later was a stockbroker in Sherman Oaks, hostled a Warbonnet F unit across the Redondo turntable to an open track, where he came down the ladder from the cab .

In a way, it makes lots of sense to re-route Trains 3&4 to the Amarillo-Wichita route. Picks up two significant "flyover country" cities, and with a 403(b) or Am-Van (around KC, Amtrak uses Retzenberger Vans for their bus service) from OKC-Wichita (or Amarillo), it picks up more in its web. The 403(b) service may also make sense if Amtrak can figure out a profitable M&E client in OKC.

There's also the matter of Raton itself. No matter how we slice it, that's not an easy grade on either side. I wonder what the time and cost comparision looks like?

Oh ... as to my nick: I did travel by section Pullman as a child ... as I have travelled slumbercoach double, roomette, single BR, double BR, relabeled compartment (Blue series 10-3-2) Superliner standard and deluxe bedroom, and DSG TEN Universal double bedroom. "Travel and Sleep in Pullman Safety and Comfort." The only one that gives Pullman competition was DB-DSG.

John

quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
I stand corrected!
(snip)
The excellent, circa 1962, night photo recently in TRAINS as part of their LAUPT (whoops, LAUS nowadays)article of 1-18 (Super) and 2-18 (Cap) lined up together IS for real - "been there done that".
Lastly, lest we forget what was ATSF 3-4; the accomodation Mail & Express train Chi-Amarillo-LA showing passengers carried only KC-Gallup. How prophetic - even the via Amarillo routing could well be in Amtrak's future.

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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations

Posted by irishchieftain (Member # 1473) on :

Well...never mind LA-Chicago, NY-Chicago is up to 24 hours (scheduled!) from 16 hours...

Posted by gct29 (Member # 1551) on :

Actually, the Three Rivers, remnant of the Broadway Ltd. and the slower of Amtrak's two NY-CHI trains, runs 19.5 hrs. But Irish's point still stands. To gain an extra 1.5 hours on a 2,256-mile run is one thing, but to gain 3.5 hours on a 908-mile run is awful.

And then there are shorter-distance trains such as the Adirondack, which emulates the Julian Calendar by adding a quarter day every year (hyperbolically speaking).

But let's not forget who's to blame--or more to the point, who's not to blame. It ain't Amtrak. They'd like nothing better than to run their trains faster. Slow trains mean longer crew times, more fuel and less train-turnaround; a big problem in the present equipment crisis. We can't really blame the host railroads either. They're trying to run a business on their own property, and obviously will not go to great lengths to acommodate passenger trains.

The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of government policy that for 50 years has decided to invest exclusively road and air infrastructure. The fact that railroads exist at all, given the unfair competition, is a testament to their usefulness.

Posted by Ed Alexander (Member # 1909) on :

John, how could you possibly remember Engineer Bill from KHJ-TV in such detail? Is there a video available of the old shows? How else would you remember what kind of engine he used? I remember his games "Red Light, Green Light," and "Name It And You Can Have It" and that his sign-off was "Happy Highball, engineers!" And his theme song ended with "Who's at the throttle? Whoo Whoo! That's Engineer Bill."

quote:
Originally posted by PullmanCo:
Gilbert,
Yea and Verily on seasonal sections of Train 18 ...
One of my fond childhood memories was that of the KHJ-TV afternoon kids show "Engineer Bill." The actor, who later was a stockbroker in Sherman Oaks, hostled a Warbonnet F unit across the Redondo turntable to an open track, where he came down the ladder from the cab .
In a way, it makes lots of sense to re-route Trains 3&4 to the Amarillo-Wichita route. Picks up two significant "flyover country" cities, and with a 403(b) or Am-Van (around KC, Amtrak uses Retzenberger Vans for their bus service) from OKC-Wichita (or Amarillo), it picks up more in its web. The 403(b) service may also make sense if Amtrak can figure out a profitable M&E client in OKC.
There's also the matter of Raton itself. No matter how we slice it, that's not an easy grade on either side. I wonder what the time and cost comparision looks like?
Oh ... as to my nick: I did travel by section Pullman as a child ... as I have travelled slumbercoach double, roomette, single BR, double BR, relabeled compartment (Blue series 10-3-2) Superliner standard and deluxe bedroom, and DSG TEN Universal double bedroom. "Travel and Sleep in Pullman Safety and Comfort." The only one that gives Pullman competition was DB-DSG.
John

Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :

Ed,

Oh, yeah, Red Light, Green Light!!!

I'd forgotten the meat of the show... Thanks!

BTW, that view of him getting off the locomotive only lasted a season or so. It got my attention

Also, I remember the LA Times article some years later.

John

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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations

Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :

The Engineer Bill Website:
http://latvlegends.com/Engbill/engbill.html

I wish I could insert the cardboard of the "Get your official Enginner Bill glass"

At least it's on the website.

John...
who can also sing...
KRTH, Los Angeles
and KMET RAydeeeeOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations