Please clarify.
The Coast Starlight/Daylight has been using the Southern Pacific (now UP) Coast Route since May 1, 1971.
Yes, the Starlight wavers off at San Jose to run up the East Bay and then run the Cascade route north.
Are you talking a strict LA-SF run, run under 403(b)?
Or are you talking a second businessman's passenger train?
Or are you talking realigning the schedule for the Startlight to SP 98-99?
Or are you talking a San Joaquin Daylight?
FWIW ... I am comparing the current Amtrak schedule (from the website) with the April 1958 timetable. (found at http://espee.railfan.net/jpgs/art_fisher/art_fisher_sp-timetable-1958_page06.jpg )
The Daylight did LAUPT-SJ in 8 h 38 m
The Daylight did LAUPT-SF in 9 h 45 m
The Daylight Oakland cars did LAUPT-Jack London Square in 9h 57 min
For that matter,
The Lark did LAUPT-SJ in 9 h 55 min all in the dark.
Amtrak does LAUPT-SJ in 10 h 27 m.
John
quote:
Originally posted by GP25:
What ever happen for plans to bring back the Daylight Route? ...snip...
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
Also, lest we forget, there was a second Amtrak train over the route (without positively checking dates) the "Spirit of California" ran an overnight schedule SAC-LAX 1983-1986.
The "Spirit" was 403(b) funded and obviously the proposed "Daylight" would have been as well. "Spirit" died when the funding went elsewhere.
From having a memorable trip on the Lark, circa 1963, the thought of having an "engineers side" roomette, with a "raising of the shade" long about Point Conception on a crystal clear morning, followed by breakfast in Lark Club while passing through Oxnard and Santa Barbara, and concluding going over the Santa Susanah Pass at Chatsworth, I would have hoped that the Spirit could have "hung on". However, replicating all of the above in an Amfleet-I dinette would not quite be the same.
I always thought that there was a "thing or two that should have been tried" before throwing in the Spirit's towel. One was assignment of Superliner equipment and second was extending the route San Diego-Sparks. The "turn" at Sparks would have been tight, but doable, However, this was pre-1996 when the SP had a "performance clause" as part of their operating agreement with Amtrak, and with such, the trains were always "more or less" on time.
However, considering there was State money on the table, I think the "powers that be" (legislature, Transportation Dept??) did the right thing; and that was putting frequent trains where the people are and integrating well coordinated bus connections elsewhere through the State.
,Since we're bragging on train trips of long ago, in 1963 my mom, my brother and I took a section on the City of Saint Louis from LA to Abilene, KS to visit my grandparents. Let's just say I was a year away from joining the Cub Scouts then and leave it at that... since I think you have a couple of mornings on me
Sadly, I know nothing of the Spirit of California. I was a young Captain of Artillery at the moment, stationed in the V Corps sector of Germany. Now, ask me about DB and SBB...
I honestly think you are right. Watching my old home state from a distance, California seems to need interurban operations more than anything else.
SF/Oakland down to Castroville or so... SF/Oakland to Sacramento
Santa Barbara to San Diego
and all around whatever anyone cares to call that sprawl that once was a beautiful city named Nuestra Ciudad de la Reina de Los Angeles.
GP25:
Once upon a time, there were perhaps as many as five LA-SF movements per day ... just before World War II ...
Morning Daylight
Noon Daylight
Lark
Coaster
Coast Mail (aka LA-SF Passenger)
What I've found interesting over the years is that (***SHOCKING***) 1st Class, Scheduled, MAIL AND EXPRESS TRAIN... with a rider coach!!
Funny ... haven't we talked about that elsewhere on these boards????
As a kid, camping at Refugio in Santa Barbara County in the 60s and 70s, I remember 10-12 movements a day of freight in addition to the Daylight and the Lark (yes, I'm a reformed car-counter).
So the capacity of the system is there, especially on the line haul between Santa Barbara and Castroville or San Jose (depending on how far the commute operations run now).
What isn't there is time. Even in 1958, it was a full days' run between LA and SF. Good old PSA (remember how old I was in 63?) proved the puddle jump could be done in under 90 minutes. Even with the post-911 security delays, it is still at worst a half-day effort to fly LA-SF.
Mr Toy lives somewhere in the high rent district of Monterey County. His input to this thread would be quite useful.
John
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
[This message has been edited by PullmanCo (edited 08-31-2002).]
quote:
Mr. Toy lives somewhere in the high rent district of Monterey County. His input to this thread would be quite useful.
And here I am! But we don't pay high rent. We've got a (relatively) low mortgage!
Yes the revival of the Coast Daylight is still in the works. Plans called for it to start up in October 2001, but the state's energy crisis that year blew the state budget, delaying start-up until 2003 at the earliest.
Plans call for the train to run once a day in each direction, 2-3 hours before the Starlight. But that may change. They expect to use Surfliner equipment, or if that is not available in time, Horizon cars.
There is documentation available from this site http://www.slocog.org/reports/reports.html At the top right of that page is a link under "Studies" for the "Coast Daylight Implementation Plan" in PDF format.
Incidentally, there was a program on KQED (The SF PBS station) called California Connected. In one segment a self-proclaimed hater of California was assigned to travel from LA to San Francisco by train. He got to Union Station and was given two options: The Coast starlight (12 hours) or a bus to Bakersfield to catch a San Joaquin to Emeryville (9 hours). He opted for the latter. He said the bus and train were comfortable, and fairly priced, but he thought it was ridiculous that there was no direct train connection between the state's two largest cities, like you find in the Northeast.
He concluded by saying "This state has been talking about high-speed trains as long as PBS has been running the Lawrence Welk Show!"
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy
[This message has been edited by Mr. Toy (edited 08-31-2002).]
Move up houses here in flyover country got to that level a couple of years ago. Prices in your neck of the woods are somewhere between outrageous and unreachable.
Oh, well. KQED. That brings back my more favorite station from The City ... KFOG!
BTW, didn't Oakland outstrip The City in population years ago, as a single municipal element within in the Contra Costa - East Bay - Peninsula metropolitan statistical area?
Have a great Sunday, John
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Toy:
And here I am!...snip...
He got to Union Station and was given two options: The Coast starlight (12 hours) or a bus to Bakersfield to catch a San Joaquin to Emeryville (9 hours). He opted for the latter.
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
There were a few dogging questions that it introduced, but I will only address one.
If the Daylight would only preceed the Starlight by about two hours or less, would it not make sense for Amtrak to adjust the Starlight for an evening departure from LA? Granted, the Daylight would stop at more cities.
Also, I don't know what the statistics are, but isn't California more populated around the route than Oregon is, hence it would be better to serve California during the daytime?
Geoff M.
I've read the study.
First Question:
Who is the target audience, beyond overflow from the Startlight and passengers on the Peninsula who don't want to be inconvenienced with a train change in San Jose?
Second Question:
ELEVEN HOURS? How in the &&&& did the Coast Line slow down by an hour and a half?
The Lark, working overnight, ran slower, malice aforethought. Arrive in LA or SF in time for the business day.
The Daylight, under Espee, ran 9 hours 45 minutes from 3d and Townsend to LAUPT.
It does not make sense to slow down.
Third Question: WHY MARKET THE MOST BEAUTIFUL TRAIN IN THE WORLD as a bloody commuter package? I rode SP3600 class domes on the Starlight. MARKET THE TRIP for Pete's sake.
There's a reason Espee, in it's heyday, had a triple unit diner-lounge and a parlor/observation car on the consist.
I know you weren't involved in the study. It just seems to me some consultant needs to be thrown off the Gaviota trestle.
Disgusted, John
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
[This message has been edited by PullmanCo (edited 09-01-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by Ken V:If the Daylight would only preceed the Starlight by about two hours or less, would it not make sense for Amtrak to adjust the Starlight for an evening departure from LA? Granted, the Daylight would stop at more cities.
Well, I'm no expert on scheduling, but the Starlight has to consider timing along its entire route, not just between LA and Oakland. But I should add that the Daylight schedule is not set in stone. It may very well change before it gets up and running. I haven't read the report lately, but I believe they expect there will eventually be sufficient demand for multiple daily departures of the Daylight, allowing for trips both before and after the Starlight.
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy
quote:
Originally posted by PullmanCo:First Question:
Who is the target audience, beyond overflow from the Startlight and passengers on the Peninsula who don't want to be inconvenienced with a train change in San Jose?
Isn't that enough if they can fill the train? Also, the Daylight will stop at more cities than the Starlight, including Gilroy, Pajaro, King City, and several other cities down south.
quote:
Second Question:ELEVEN HOURS? How in the &&&& did the Coast Line slow down by an hour and a half?
Two words, Union Pacific. The Starlight takes almost 12 hours, too. The official goal is to get it down to 8 hours, eventually.
quote:
Third Question: WHY MARKET THE MOST BEAUTIFUL TRAIN IN THE WORLD as a bloody commuter package? I rode SP3600 class domes on the Starlight. MARKET THE TRIP for Pete's sake.
I don't know, I just live here.
And to respond to your earlier post, four years ago we got out of the renters rut and bought a small house for $145,000. Then prices took off like mad. Today we could sell it for more than twice that. Our mortgage is atleast $300 less than most people here pay for a two bedroom apartment. Our income is modest, but we can easily afford to live here now.
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy
[This message has been edited by Mr. Toy (edited 09-01-2002).]
Of course, LA & SF are the places people quoute for real estate prices in the Golden State.
John
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Toy:
I don't know, I just live here.
And to respond to your earlier post, four years ago we got out of the renters rut and bought a small house for $145,000. Then prices took off like mad. Today we could sell it for more than twice that. Our mortgage is atleast $300 less than most people here pay for a two bedroom apartment. Our income is modest, but we can easily afford to live here now.
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
quote:
Originally posted by PullmanCo:
That's not as bad as I had thought it would be.Of course, LA & SF are the places people quoute for real estate prices in the Golden State.
Well, for us its not bad, but those who keep track of such things say that overall Monterey County has the highest housing costs in California right now.
"BRING BACK THE DEL MONTE"
Don't laugh.
Go see his threads (about two months back) in the Western US forum:
Trackside Vibration
and
Seeking a Railroad Milepost Map
John
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
Am I putting words in the mouth of "Mr. Toy"?"BRING BACK THE DEL MONTE"
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
[This message has been edited by PullmanCo (edited 09-02-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
Am I putting words in the mouth of "Mr. Toy"?"BRING BACK THE DEL MONTE"
No, Gilbert, I'm sure I have said that more than once. I'm certain. Positive. And I ain't the only one, neither.
Anyone with more curiosity can click the link below.....
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy
I would hook together a Heritage consist...
Baggage
3 x 9900 series AT&SF Bi-level Coach.
2 x AT&SF or BN full-length domes (I would reconfigure the lower lounges and dorm space as cafe style food service.
1 x twin-unit diner
2-3 x AT&SF or BN full length domes, configured as parlor cars.
I MIGHT EVEN blow off the diner and use the lower space in each dome as food service ... UP did a lot in the 30s with very little space, and if you set a single card menu, you can get somewhere...
Remember, this is wishful thinking.
More realistically, I'd see ....
1-2 Superliner Coach, reconfigured to single seating for 1st class parlor space.
1 Sightseer Lounge ... reconfigured downstairs for quality foodservice
2-3 Superliner Coaches ... one reconfigured downstairs as a foodservice operation.
John
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
What is California current fiscal situation?
Will the Assembly authorize a contract and payment of 403(b) fees to Amtrak?
One of you locals, please weigh in ... I'm just a Native Son of the Golden West, not a current resident.
John
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
[This message has been edited by CK (edited 09-07-2002).]
As for the fiscal situation for the Daylight revival, the state budget is pretty tight right now. However, there is a proposition on the November ballot which would devote a percentage of the sales tax from automobile sales to transportation. From this rail would get something over $700 million a year, broken down as follows (according to RailPAC)
I don't know what its chances are, but there is hope.
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy
Mr Toy...
It's my fantasy consist ... you get to set up your own fantasy consist
As far as the forthcoming election goes ... I come from the Prop 13 era ... when "a money issue is on the ballot ... let's vote it down."
I'm also a product of (egad!) the Los Angeles Unified School District (1974 vintage) ... I can remember a steady string, since 1966 or so, of bond issues for the schools going to defeat at the polls.
What I'm saying Mr Toy? Simple: Vote yes but do not hold your breath.
John
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
Elsewhere, I believe I recall a Grand Canyon ride with those cars in consist.
The UP also had cars similiarly configured. During 1962 aboard their Sea-Portland "pool" train, I recall one, along with, as an aside, some of the "Train of Tomorrow" cars.
Let's move the aside up front.
Speaking of GM's project, I keep hearing rumors that at least one of the "Train of Tomorrow" domes survived Uncle Peter's sales to scrappers.
What have you heard?
Thanks, John
quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
...snip...The UP also had cars similiarly configured. During 1962 aboard their Sea-Portland "pool" train, I recall one, along with, as an aside, some of the "Train of Tomorrow" cars.
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
Since we've gone off on this tangent, One thing I vividly remember about the early Starlight were two types of coaches. One type had a blue and white color scheme with a single large restroom at each end (one men's one ladies) and the hallway wrapped around it (which also reduced vestibule noise in the seating area)
The other coaches were predominantly pale green and white. They had two restrooms at each end, with the hallway split down the middle (These toilets were smaller, but still quite spacious compared to Superliner toilets). The rest room doors were red, I think. On the walls in these cars at each end in the seating area were large round gold colored medallions with a southwestern Indian design on them. I have often wondered if they originally came from the Santa Fe Chief. Anyone know?
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy
[This message has been edited by Mr. Toy (edited 09-08-2002).]
Sounds like "Aerotrain."
Found the answer on "Train of Tomorrow" ... the dome lounge appears to be property of the Ogden museum, but is currently stored derelict.
John
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
By the time I attended UCSB, Amtrak ran mainly ex SP articulated Daylight coaches and ex ATSF 44 & 48 passenger coaches on the Daylight/Starlight. I think that's what you rode
John
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Toy:
Gilbert, I'm not sure what "steam ejector" cars are. But it looks like I rode them.Since we've gone off on this tangent, One thing I vividly remember about the early Starlight were two types of coaches. One type had a blue and white color scheme with a single large restroom at each end (one men's one ladies) and the hallway wrapped around it (which also reduced vestibule noise in the seating area)
The other coaches were predominantly pale green and white. They had two restrooms at each end, with the hallway split down the middle (These toilets were smaller, but still quite spacious compared to Superliner toilets). The rest room doors were red, I think. On the walls in these cars at each end in the seating area were large round gold colored medallions with a southwestern Indian design on them. I have often wondered if they originally came from the Santa Fe Chief. Anyone know?
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
Otherwise, as long as the carbody skin and frame are uncompromised, I don't care if it's unwashed Pullman green, bright stainless, or Pennsy locomotive Brunswick green (aka BLACK!).
Disgusted,
John
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The City of Saint Louis (UP, 1967) is still my standard for passenger operations
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy