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It has came to light that BNSF may not let Amtrak take the UPS off of the SWC in March. BNSF has a contract with Amtrak to haul UPS on the Chief and they want this business kept on the passenger train. This should all come out in the wash by mid march. I told this to my local Supt and he is checking with a buddy of his in Chicago about the validity of all this. Will report the outcome later when I find out for sure. This would be a big positive shot in the arm for the Chief.
dilly Member # 1427
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Very interesting that a freight railroad is literally forcing Amtrak to haul freight.
Now if Amtrak could only force freight railroads to haul people, we might end up with a true national passenger rail network.
Cthetrains Member # 2148
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dilly, you're funny..
------------------ Cory (o:}=
tubaallen Member # 2057
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Are you talking about USPS? or UPS (as in brown trucks)?
Eric Member # 674
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I think Amtrak just hauls for the USPS. You can tell a UPS trailer on a freight train by the pure dark gray trailer and small UPSZ lettering on the side, but I don't think I've seen them before on Amtrak... If Amtrak stops hauling for ExpressTrak, but keeps the USPS boxcars and trailers, the Chief (and other trains) should see better on-time performance, less passenger inconvenience, and Amtrak will save and make money!
[This message has been edited by Eric (edited 02-21-2003).]
Santa Fe 5704 Member # 2277
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I've seen countless posters stating that the Southwest Chief get's very good handling on the BNSF and they can't seem to understand this. The UPS Contract between Amtrak and BNSF is the reason!!! If the UPS shipments comes off of the Chief and back to freight trains then look for the Chief to start falling back everywhere is goes. BNSF is double dipping with Amtrak. They not only benefit from the UPS they also benefit from on time performance. So, BNSF does not want to lose this passenger train and I think you will see more of this information popping up in the next few months than ever before. David Gunn had better be keeping his eye on this one for sure!!!!!
Santa Fe 5704 Member # 2277
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And as far a UPS Trailers bearing positive UPS marks I would say most of you haven't been around this business at all. UPS ships via rail in all kinds of trailers. Shipping documents that we are provided on the trains will show the shipper. Granted, there are countless brown UPS trailers on BNSF trains but they are in other trailers bearing markings of all kinds of Carriers as well.
Eric Member # 674
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SF5704, Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for clearing it up! ~Eric
Santa Fe 5704 Member # 2277
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Here is a prime example of UPS Shipments [if it comes out formatted properly]. This is from BNSF Z WSPNBY yesterday.
Block NBAY1 Setout NBAY CA 1 TTAX 553455 QOJ L HAZMAT NBAY 218 UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA 36 NP NO PLACARDS REQUIRED E MAR 260026 VV6 L HAZMAT NBAY 53T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA NP NO PLACARDS REQUIRED E TIPZ 221785 V1R L FAK NBAY 48T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA E TIPZ 225893 V1R L FAK NBAY 48T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA E UPSZ 847898 V1G L HAZMAT NBAY 45T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA NP NO PLACARDS REQUIRED E XTRZ 611765 V1R L HAZMAT NBAY 48T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA NP NO PLACARDS REQUIRED 2 TTAX 77196 QOI L HAZMAT NBAY 207 UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA 48 NP NO PLACARDS REQUIRED MCNR MECH REFRIGERATION NOT RUNNING E FSTZ 637098 V1G L FAK NBAY 45T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA E FSTZ 637151 V1G L FAK NBAY 45T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA E MAR 525248 V L HAZMAT NBAY 48T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA NP NO PLACARDS REQUIRED MCNR MECH REFRIGERATION NOT RUNNING E MAR 525192 V L HAZMAT NBAY 48T UNITEDPARSER NBAY CA
Santa Fe 5704 Member # 2277
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Here's US Mail listing on the same train.
16 RTTX 165333 QBU L USMAIL RICHCA 119 AGENT RICHMOND CA 140 E BMDZ 634318 V1G L USMAIL RICHCA 45T USPOSSERVICE RICHMOND CA E KBSZ 631981 V1G L CATLOG RICHCA 45T GRTRUCKING RICHMOND CA 17 TTAX 78266 QOI L CATLOG RICHCA 221 AGENT RICHMOND CA 152 E XTRZ 811472 V1R L CATLOG RICHCA 48T GRTRUCKING RICHMOND CA E TIPZ 225726 V1R L USMAIL RICHCA 48T USPOSSERVICE RICHMOND CA E SFTZ 221907 V1R L USMAIL RICHCA 48T USPOSSERVICE RICHMOND CA E XTRZ 223018 V1R L USMAIL RICHCA 48T TDIS/STP RICHMOND CA E XTRZ 222525 V1R L USMAIL RICHCA 48T USPOSSERVICE RICHMOND CA
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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quote:Originally posted by Santa Fe 5704: I've seen countless posters stating that the Southwest Chief get's very good handling on the BNSF and they can't seem to understand this. The UPS Contract between Amtrak and BNSF is the reason!!!
I'm not so sure. I have a January 1992 Trains magazine with an extensive article about the Chief. Even back then Santa Fe was instructing its dispatchers to keep the Chief on time. This was well before Amtrak Express shipments, though the photos do show one or two mail cars near the front end. According to the article, Santa Fe's handling of the Chief was the result of Amtrak's on-time incentive payments, plus a little corporate pride thrown in.
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
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A lot has changed since 1992. But, you are dead wrong about corporate pride in conjuction with the operation of this passenger train. The color of green is what corporate pride is all about. Amtrak makes BNSF tons of money more ways than one and that is why the train is given immaculate handling. Watch and see what happens when the UPS comes off at the end of March. My bet is that this train will take a beating over the remaining of this year. I run along side this trains schedule for 226 miles several times a week on Z trains. At present all Z trains give way to Amtrak. I don't want to see them get the shaft but the color of green will change the way the train is handled!!!
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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quote:Originally posted by Santa Fe 5704: Amtrak makes BNSF tons of money more ways than one and that is why the train is given immaculate handling.
More ways than one. Evidently one of those ways is the UPS shipments. Exactly how much does BNSF make from Amtrak's handling of UPS, anyway?
Another is the incentive payments Amtrak makes for on-time performance. Those incentive payments to BNSF for all Amtrak trains totaled $12 million in 2000, far more than any other railroad received. Much of that money will also go away if BNSF starts treating the Chief badly. I doubt BNSF would give up those millions even if the Chief does stop handling express freight.
I don't know if the the current incentives work the same way, but according to the 1992 article: If Amtrak trains are 100% on time in a given year Santa Fe stands to make as much as $6.3 million in extra revenue. If on-time preformance is 90%, the incentive falls to about $3.1 million. "The overhead costs are theirs [Amtrak's], so if you look at costs versus potential profits, Amtrak is one of our most profitable customers," says Mike Martin, AT&SF manager of Public Relations in San Bernardino.
And that was before Amtrak was hauling UPS shipments.
And while, as you say, "the color green" is always the predominant factor in corporate decisions, one shouldn't dismiss corporate pride as a contributing factor. (NB: I never suggested it was the primary factor). Let's not forget that Santa Fe owns the rights to the "Chief" name, and allows Amtrak to use it. SF prohibited Amtrak from using it between 1974 and 1984 because on-board service had fallen below SF's standards, and they didn't want the Chief name associated with the train until Amtrak's service improved again. That decision had no effect on SF's bottom line. It was a matter preserving the goodwill and image of the Chief name, even though Santa Fe would probably never run the Chief under the SF banner again. If that isn't matter of corporate pride, I don't know what is.
BTW, what are Z trains? I've only heard that term in conjuction with tiny model trains.
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
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the z trains are high priority intermodal trains. tofc [trailer on flat car] us mail ups and double stack containers. they get the best engines and are usually overpowered to keep a guaranteed schedule. i think bnsf and the u.p. use the z designation.
------------------ The Copper Country Limited [Milwaukee Road] and the Peninsula 400 [CNW} still my favorites
Santa Fe 5704 Member # 2277
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Mr. Toy, you should stay in the basement with your N Scale trains and your 1992 issue of Trains Magazine. You talk as if Santa Fe still exists. I can personally gaurantee you that it does not. Only in corporate titles does the name Santa Fe exists and it follows behind Burlington Northern. Passenger trains are essential in our mid-western states. I am not against that. I am only saying when the money starts to dry up then and only then will BNSF put the SWC in the siding for the High Paying Intermodal Trains. Intermodal trains are trains that carry trailers/containers. Those are what you see on the highway behind trucks. Does that help??
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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Calm down, Mr. Santa Fe. I have no basement, and my trains are HO. And if I stay with my toy trains I ain't gonna learn anything new from folks like you.
But that's beside the point.
True, BNSF is not the Santa Fe of 11 years ago. But the fact remains (and the point you have not addressed) that on-time incentive payments will continue whether or not Amtrak carries express on the Chief. Question: Is BNSF going to risk losing those incentive paymnents just because they may lose some money from the Chief no longer hauling UPS? How much does BNSF stand to lose if the Chief stops hauling UPS, anyway? These questions are central to the discussion here.
FYI I do know what intermodal trains are, I just had never heard the term "Z trains" before. A friendly reminder: I do not consider myself a railfan. I am primarily interested in the politics of Amtrak. Along the way I have picked up some knowledge about the freight business, but it is not something I go out of my way for. I am not familiar with all of the jargon, so please be patient with my ignorance.
------------------ Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth. -Mr. Toy
[This message has been edited by Mr. Toy (edited 02-28-2003).]
CK Member # 589
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Santa Fe, I wanted to comment in the defense of Mr. Toy. Mr. Toy is a long time well respected member of this board. Please understand that many of us are professionals in other occupations outside of the railroad industry. We do not pretend to have the knowledge base of people within the railroad industry. That is why we ask questions and post our thoughts. However, we all share an interest in railroads and in helping the industry continue in a positive direction. It is my hope that we can all continue to be constructive in our comments and help eachother with whatever questions we may have. I know I've learned alot from Mr. Toy and many others on this board. Thank you for reading my thoughts.
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