As a matter of fact, I am extremely proud of the way Amtrak manages to run its 30,000 mile network with the crumbs that are thrown its way.

As an American, I could care less what Japan and Europe thinks of our rail system. I quit flying a long, long time ago and I think Amtrak is a great way of travel.

And as for the French... their punctuality figures for the Paris area average at about 87%. The UK average is closer to 89%. Hmmm.

Anyone can find some "acquaintances" who will critize, many times with either a bias or a lack of knowledge, what they see as less
than they would like. But given a free choice
and no political motivations almost all those in the countries naned would love to live in the USA or have our privileges where
they live.

As to a national health system, why do most who can afford it come to our doctors and hospitals for treatment of serious problems.
Yes, there are those who say we should have the government provide ( name your favorite).
But when the government( by the way the government is us) does it is less efficient and actually costs more if all costs are included. National defense, fire and police protection, road and highway infracture being the exceptions.

It is up to each one of us to elect officials that represent our particular interests. It is up to each one of us to write letters to the editors of our local and national papers expressing our opinions about rail service.

It is up to each of us to question officials about their position on rail when they come to town or when they are fielding questions on TV or on the radio. Public pressure is what will save Amtrak, not the hurling of abuse on this forum. To date, strong bi-partisan support for Amtrak has made quite an impression on our leaders.

Don't blame the Bush administration or the Republicans for the situation Amtrak is in right now. This just happens to be the year when Amtrak promised to break even and, hopefully, a "new deal" for rail will be hammered out.

Let's not forget that Amtrak was created during the Nixon administration and nobody did more harm to it than the Carter administration.

I am cautiously optomistic that Amtrak and long-distance passenger service will survive. Indeed, Amtrak is still alive as we speak. The great Southwest Chief with its vintage Superliner cars is fast approaching Albuquerque. The Acella is making its way at around 150 mph between Washington and Boston. The sleek Surfliner is working its way up the coast between San Diego and Santa Barbara while the Talgo trainset is ambling through the great Northwest.

No, I do not hang my head in shame when I think about Amtrak. Indeed, I am bursting with pride everytime I hear the old train whistles blow. What shames me, however, is when my fellow citizens criticize Amtrak and don't even lift a finger to help insure its survival.

I found StevePostal's comments to be whacky, snooty and melodramatic. Like other members of this forum (for example,take a look a sutton's post in this thread), he can't seem to refrain from making insulting political attacks and injecting political dogma in his comments about Amtrak. I don't like it, and chose satire in my above replies to respond to it.

Now, Chucky, I ask you never again to put me in the same political bed as sutton and StevePostal. You can't imagine the shame it will cause me if my friends hear about it. You must understand most of my friends don't live in culturally and socially advanced countries; many live in backward countries like Missouri and New Mexico.

Yes, New Mexico is a little backward but I like it. Takes a special sort of person to live in a place like this. But a dollar goes a long way here so life is pretty darn easy, even at $11 an hour.

Culturally, New Mexico is OK. The symphony is excellent but nothing beats the Chicago Symphony and the Albuquerque Isotopes are a hoot but how can you compare a minor league team to the Chicago Cubs (Go Cubs!).

Of course, best of all, the SW Chief stops here for 40 minutes, but regretably the station burned down some time ago and passengers do the best they can, waiting in the old gift shop of the Alvarado Hotel (demolished in the 70's).

After saving the long hauls, my next favorite cause would be to save the old locomotive repair center. Some lunatic from Ohio wants to make a convention center out of it but the best use would be to make a "Wheels Museum" (google that).

Yes, I agree that the Bush administration seems less than enthusiastic to preserve the status quo. However, the idea of breaking up Amtrak was born long before the Bush took office and the amount of money that the administration is proposing is pretty much what the presidents who preceeded him had offered Amtrak.

I am by no means a Bush supporter, or a Republican for that matter. Nevertheless, despite the uncomfortable oversight that is occurring with Amtrak's budget, some good things have happened to our national rail system lately.

First and foremost was appointment of David Gunn to lead Amtrak. Gunn has proven to be a very coherent, proven leader whose down-to-earth approach to saving Amtrak speaks volumes. He has fired scores of deadwood vice presidents, he eliminated the satisfaction guarantee program (that could not possibly work with the freight trains clogging the system) and some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth definitely has a place in Bartletts quotations.

Although I love Amtrak more than my '84 Volvo, after being on this board for a while, I am coming around to seeing that perhaps some changes need to be made.

First off, I think Amtrak needs to better define exactly what role it is playing in the transportation system. Along these lines, it is totally unfair for critics to say that (for example) only 1 percent of the travelling population takes the train. That's unfair because if most people actually knew that Amtrak existed and if they knew how low the fares were, there simply would not be enough trains on hand to accommodate them all.

Also, I for one would like to know where all the money's going. I cannot believe that the Southwest Chief is losing money when the train stretches a half-mile long and is always packed solid. Is the Chief losing money on the sleeper cars? Are the union wages too high? And if the wages are astronomically high why, oh why, does everybody (except myself evidently) persistently complain about the quality of service on board.

I am not embarrassed about Amtrak, but I do warn people about the likelihood of delays if they choose to ride.

As stated many times in this & other forums, rail passenger service is not a "priority" in the US, and there are still a good number of congresspeople who consider it an unwise or inappropriate use of taxpayer dollars. I disagree, and vote accordingly, but this topic will remain a continuing struggle.

nor am I in the least bit ashamed of my country or of Amtrak

Then consider what you are backing instead of protesting against. This country has a lot to be ashamed of, and being dishonest about it won't cure it.

I am extremely proud of the way Amtrak manages to run its 30,000 mile network with the crumbs that are thrown its way

That means that you countenance the fact that it gets crumbs as opposed to the kind of funding it really deserves. I consider that a left-handed compliment towards Amtrak, and it needs less of that and more funding.

Reality check: the UK system isn't in chaos as some media reports would have you believe

I love when people say "reality check" because it's usually a BS check. Things are improving in the UK, but the chaos was and is quite real.

It is problematic to blame the government for Amtrak's problems because, as a great democracy, we are the government

What is this "great democracy" canard??? The USA is a republic, NOT a democracy. Therefore, the government is entirely to blame, especially when it does not listen to its constituents. Quite a majority of people in this country want improved intercity rail service, and Congress flat-out distorts those figures plus refuses to listen. That's the truth, and it's up to you whether you choose to believe it or not. There is no democracy here.

we chose instead to build an Interstate System unequalled anywhere and airports with all of the supporting Air Traffic Controls, we are still the envy of the world for what we have and how we keep improving it

What's this "we chose" business? We chose nothing—Eisenhower chose for us. Envy of the world??? Then how come the rest of the world is not emulating us? Other countries have plenty of land area available to build motorways—which they have done for the most part, Germany actually leading us in this respect by building Autobahnen decades ago—but they have no intention whatsoever of repeating our errors. Rather, we are the bane of the world for our government's choices in transportation and the flaws committed thereof.

No, I do not hang my head in shame when I think about Amtrak

Have you ever been on the Northeast Corridor? Compared to it, the other 79-mph-or-less corridors are an embarrassment indeed. About the closest that comes to it are some 90-mph stretches in California and Arizona, and that's it. Compared to almost 200 mph, it's pretty darn shameful…especially considering that the USA once had the fastest passenger trains on the planet, something the ICC killed back in 1950.

All who think it is better somewhere else, there is no impediment to your going there. But don't get knocked aside by those going the other way to get here

Who, third-world people who come here to sign onto welfare, sucking our tax dollars dry, and not even worrying about Amtrak to boot???? Not to mention more terrorists looking to cause mass destruction. That's who's coming here, not the cream of the crop as in decades and centuries past. I'm sure if I go back to Dublin permanently, I will certainly be knocked aside by more terrorists looking to hijack planes subsidized by Almighty Shrub.

Also, I for one would like to know where all the money's going

Hmm, $50 billion in 32 years, loads of money. Not to mention a forced mandate to become profitable? Gunn's uncovering a lot of abuse, as well as fixing the accounting abuses, but it's not as much hidden money as one may expect, which is why he is asking for at least $1.8 billion for next year. (Meanwhile, Germany spends $20 billion on its entire rail infrastructure in one year, by contrast. You do get what you pay for.)

You're all nuttier than a fruit cake

RES IPSA LOQUITUR. Don't know what that means? Google it then.

Yes, it would be nice to be wisked along at 200 mph on a high speed train, but that proposal is not before Congress at the present time.

I really don't see the point in protesting against Amtrak when I am despirately doing what I can to preserve the status quo. What we've got now is better than nothing, don't you think?

I would be very pleased if Congress would allocate 20 billion dollars for Amtrak, but that is not going to happen this year. It's either 900 million from the president and the house or about $1.3 billion from the Senate. Mr. Gunn wants about $1.8 billion and who knows, maybe he'll get it.

OK, we're a republic, but in a true democracy, somebody still has to pose the difficult questions to the hoi poloi. Despite your name-calling, when it comes to rail issues, I would not mind having you ask the fiscal questions but there is no guarantee that people will agree with you.

And no, I have not been on the Acella train but since I'm stuck here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, I sure as hell don't want my tax dollars to end up paying for NEC at the expense of the long haul trains. And I sure don't want the Southwest Chief going 200 mph on tracks that can't handle speeds over 90 mph.

I may be nuttier than a fruitcake but at least I'm working within the system to try to change it, instead of alienating people on this board.

If you can cite where I did any direct name-calling, I would be glad to retract.

I really don't see the point in protesting against Amtrak

Protesting against Amtrak? I think you misunderstand. I have done my part to support Amtrak, to be sure, but to settle for the status quo is unacceptable, and this is on Congress' shoulders. However, Congress has types like John Mica who believe that Amtrak is standing in the way of massive private investment in HSR (demand thereof being utterly nonexistent nor is that the way they have done it in countries that do have HSR) not to mention a demagoguic current administration that kow-tows to the lobbies of the air and highway modes (meanwhile, Amtrak is forbidden by law to lobby on its own behalf).

Yes, it would be nice to be wisked along at 200 mph on a high speed train, but that proposal is not before Congress at the present time

Such proposals have been before Congress in years past. Will it take another airline hijacking for Congress to take them seriously?

but in a true democracy, somebody still has to pose the difficult questions to the hoi poloi

That, of course, requires the actual existence of a true democracy. Since the federal government provides trust funds for highways, aviation and waterways but absolutely none for rail, it ought to be an indicator of what manner of government is over us...

but since I'm stuck here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, I sure as hell don't want my tax dollars to end up paying for NEC at the expense of the long haul trains

I see you have fallen under the spell of Congress and their NEC fallacies. The operational costs of the LD trains are not as high as claimed—add to that the fact that they run on tracks that are not owned by Amtrak (whereas Amtrak owns 80% of the NEC). Rest assured that if the NEC had all of its additional signaling above CTC removed and its trains slowed down to 79 mph top speed, that would not result in any improvements to LD train service, due to the very rails they run on and the vagaries of the owners of those rails.

My point about the NEC (and I did not say Acela Express, but you did) is that it is a certain demonstration of what could be possible in the rest of the country were Amtrak given funding on the scale it really ought to be funded at.

And I sure don't want the Southwest Chief going 200 mph on tracks that can't handle speeds over 90 mph

Hence the whole issue regarding infrastructure investment. Much of the issues, however, revolve around past ICC/current FRA regulations regarding signaling, not track conditions. The FRA upholds the old ICC rule that the top speed on CTC-only track is to be 79 mph despite the existence of perfect track. In order to permit varnish to run at capable speeds, additional signaling including cab-signal systems plus some form of ATS/PTS on top of that is required...and like in 1950, the FRA continues to require that either the host railroads or the operators of said varnish must pay for such signaling improvements out-of-pocket, without any government assistance. The UP is not going to install ACSES on the Sunset Limited's route to permit 100-mph speeds for Amtrak when their own freight trains do not exceed 60 or 70 mph.

On the other hand, the presence of antiquated variable-tension catenary wire on the former PRR segments of the Northeast Corridor has forced Amtrak to hold speeds of the Acela Express down to 125-135 mph, depending on the stretch of track. The tracks are in good condition, and most likely, the AE could be permitted to run at 150 mph over a lot of the former PRR should that catenary problem be resolved. (Amtrak was supposed to upgrade the former PRR's catenary to constant-tension plus a voltage change to 25 kilovolts and a frequency change to 60 Hertz 20 years ago, incidentally...but funding problems plagued it then as now.)

I may be nuttier than a fruitcake

That is between you and SF 5704—more accurately, between SF 5704 and the rest of the members who have posted here. My "res ipsa loquitur" comment was directed at 5704, who seems to have nothing better to do than post flames.

but at least I'm working within the system to try to change it

So have we all, but the "system" thereof continues to ignore us.

instead of alienating people on this board

This thread may or may not be a total farce but I have learned an enormous amount about Amtrak from you and I thank you for the time and energy you put into your replies.

I honestly do not know what it would take to get the current administration to give us a viable passenger rail system. I am crossing my fingers that the Southwest Chief will continue to exist. I am unable to fly and train travel is more than a holiday vacation for me.

I apologize for saying that you were calling names. When you used the word "canard," I thought that was an insult. I just looked the word up in the dictionary and feel very stupid.

Thanks for putting me in my place. I think I'll stick to addressing simple issues that I can comprehend.

Sarcasm noted—and I do apologize if it seemed that I was attempting to belittle you. However, I did not wish you to be caught in the crossfire of my firing back at others' flames, and I was hoping that I was being at least respectful of your views. The more, the merrier is my motto when it comes to support for better intercity varnish, to be utterly honest.

Safety standards? Do some research. FRA Tier II is most likely far less safe than the HSTs that have crumple zones in the front and rear power cars. And don't you think it ironic that they're trying to build HSTs like how cars in the 1940s used to be built (comparatively speaking) while they let plastic-bodied compact cars out on the highways to mix with heavy tractor-trailer traffic?

Not to mention that the Tier II crashworthiness regs (untested in real life, so unsure whether or not it will be help or hurt) were a reaction to the wholly unnecessary Chase MD Amtrak crash on the Northeast Corridor. If not for them, we could have had off-the-shelf HSTs running quite safely on the NEC at speed at present.

You may argue this point account you don't understand our signal system nor the Train Control features

I may "argue this point account"…hmm, please try to be a little more articulate when you type that next time. What's to understand? The ICC back in 1950 said "install this, that and the other at your own expense, or run your trains slower" so the RR companies opted to run their trains slower, leading to a more rapid downturn of passenger business than if the federal government had given them financial assistance to install the signaling and thus permitting them to continue to run their varnish at a high rate of speed.

USA also transports an enormous amount of freight whereas other countries don't even come close to what we haul

Oh, this canard again. No, we run fewer, heavier trains in a very narrow niche market, on fewer rails than ever. Not to mention that there is currently an upturn in heavy freight haulage in Europe and elsewhere—whereas in the past they ran shorter, faster freights. Hotshot freights? A thing of the past here. And the rails keep losing market share to trucks.

Mix all this together and Safety Standards is a requirement. So, until we lower our standards we won't measure up to these Japanese or European Railroads

Yes, and I am selling the Brooklyn Bridge on eBay starting at $50.

You failed to mention that, actually, the "standards" are exempt on dedicated HSR corridors where slow, heavy freights do not operate.

Funny how France and Germany were running 140-mph varnish mixed in with freight and commuter traffic quite safely for years before they engaged in their TGV and ICE programs, eh…?

quote:

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Originally posted by sutton:
But without a doubt the Bush admin has been more hostile towards Amtrak than any past president.
Amen[/B]

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Actually I thought Reagan was more hostile, but that was due to his budget director at the time being against Amtrak.

Regardless, I get your point.

It is strange that it is reasonable, acceptable (even expected) to spend US tax $ on transportation, infrastructure, and schools in other countries but it is a "poor use of taxpayer dollars" here.

Maybe Amtrak needs to sign a long-term fuel contract with a company that is "in tight" with the white house...

quote:

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Originally posted by MPALMER:
Maybe Amtrak needs to sign a long-term fuel contract with a company that is "in tight" with the white house...
[/B]

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Knowing several railroad men, I can verify that you are not speaking on "their level" and would go so far as to say that you are being insulting to them by trying to stereotype them.

I would also say that you work for a road that is hostile in general to varnish. Am I correct? (However, if it is BNSF, what with your handle being from ATSF, they are not so hostile to Amtrak.) Would you like it better if Amtrak was broken up and the federal and state governments went back to subsidizing private companies to run passenger trains?

And yes, the USA is made up of "foreigners" almost entirely…would you be of a Native American tribe? Judging by your rhetoric, I would say absolutely not, though…

As for "go home", I was born in Queens NYC. Now I live in the Pocono Mountains. I did live in Dublin, Ireland for ten years of my childhood, though. I'm sure that the Native Americans would like to send us all home—at least I know where my home in Europe is, do you know your non-USA homeland of origin…? Also, I'd like to see you try to send me home…or anywhere, if you think you're tough enough. You have brains enough to be on a computer, you ought to have brains enough to not be a wiseacre.

One more thing: Why do you use the number of a locomotive as your handle? All hoggers I know of never do such a thing, because that is typical of railfans to do such things. Tell me I'm wrong now…

True, they are a lot of young guys.

As for my heritage try "Scotch Irish"

Cool, originally from what is now the "six counties". Still all the land of the mostly 5' 3" gauge…and, if possible, a land even more hostile to railroads than even the USA is, which makes them way, way out of step with a lot of the rest of Europe.