RAILforum: Flag Stops

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Posted by dnsommer (Member # 2825) on :

I've never boarded a train at a flag stop. Must one really wave a flag? Does the engineer slow down when approaching a flag stop in case someone is waiting? Do trains sometimes have to stop and then back up to pick up flag stop passengers?

Essex, MT (Izaak Walton Inn) is a flag stop. What is the procedure there? The place is very railfan-oriented. Can they radio the conductor or engineer if they have passengers? If a train is sold out and someone is flagging the train without a reservation will it just go right by?

What about remote flag stops where the train passes at night? How do you get the engineer's attention?

Why call a station a flag stop when it's only served by trains requiring a reservation?

Dave

[This message has been edited by dnsommer (edited 11-10-2003).]

Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :

Here is a complete listing of Amtrak flag stops:

Keystone 646:

Parkesburg

Pennsylvanian;

Lewistown
Huntington
Tyrone

Cardinal:

Thurmond WV

Crescent;

Culpepper, VA
Gastonia NC
Toccoa, GA
Laurel, MS
Picayune
Slidell LA

City of New Orleans

Kankakee, IL
Mattoon
Effingham
Centralia
Fulton, KY
Dyersbutg, TN
Yazoo, MS
Hazelhurst
Brookhaven
McComb

Empire builder;

Essex, MT

Sunset;

Schriever, LA
Sanderson, TX
Deeming., NM
Lordsburg
Benson, AZ

I rather doubt is there is any "flag' used today. All of those trains are reserved, save the Keystone. Therefore someone or some machine at Amtrak has knowledge of a passenger's intent to either board or alight at a flag stop.

However back in the days when a flag was used, such was half each green and white, at night green and white lanterns were used.

Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :

Amtrak *should* have a list of people boarding and alighting at each station. While the latter might be up to date (since they're on board), the former might not be. The engineer has to slow to a speed where he is able to determine whether anybody is waiting to board. However, I have heard the conducter/engineer asking waiting freight trains in the vicinity if there was anybody on the station. Just being visible should be enough, no flag required (it's a notional flag, as in an indication, rather than a physical flag).

Geoff M.

Posted by dnsommer (Member # 2825) on :

I'd like to see passenger activity statistics for all Amtrak stations. I wonder if any have had zero passengers on and zero passengers off on an annual basis.

Dave

Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :

Hey Gilbert B Norman,

Are there any flag stops on thwe coast starlight?

Anton

Posted by MPALMER (Member # 125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dnsommer:
I wonder if any have had zero passengers on and zero passengers off on an annual basis.
Dave

Dave,
If that happened I'm sure they would drop that location as a flag stop! They sure wouldn't get much community protest

Posted by MPALMER (Member # 125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by geoffm:
Amtrak *should* have a list of people boarding and alighting at each station. While the latter might be up to date (since they're on board), the former might not be.
Geoff M.

The list of boarders is not always up to date, even at scheduled-stop stations. I generally plan on very short notice and often do not get on the manifest. Be sure to get a "boarding code" from the reservation agent and you should have no problems.

Posted by dnsommer (Member # 2825) on :

Well, maybe they have to list these flag stops for political reasons or for 403b reasons, I was thinking.

Dave

Posted by BNSF 1088 (Member # 2400) on :

It is very rare for the train not to stop at the flag stops what happens is if no one is getting off the train and the train is running late and the engineer does not see anyone at the station they do not stop.But if the train is running early they will have to stop and wait for the dep time.

------------------
LOOK LISTEN LIVE
BEFORE CROSSING RR TRACKS

Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :

Here in Canada there are many flag stops, especially on the route of The Canadian. I have flagged down the Canadian on a few occasions, and what you do is stand near the track and wave your arms about. The tradition was that if the engineer spotted you he would sound the horn twice, and if you didn't hear the horn then you would frantically start jumping up and down. I do remember the days of the green and white flag, but they have all disappeared long ago (I suspect stolen from these very lonely stops).

[This message has been edited by royaltrain (edited 11-11-2003).]

Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :

I've only flagged down a train once (the Pennsylvanian, at Tyrone, PA), using the method described by Royaltrain.

I enlisted an electric-yellow Shop Rite supermarket bag as a substitute flag. It seemed to work pretty nicely -- although the train had already slowed to a near crawl as it neared the station.

Still, there's nothing quite like being the only passenger at an otherwise deserted station, and bringing an entire Amtrak train to a screeching halt with a simple wave.

[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 11-11-2003).]

Posted by irishchieftain (Member # 1473) on :

IMHO, retaining flag stops subtracts from what really should be the goal of once again having world-class interstate/long-distance passenger rail traveling at high speeds. Who would even think of flagging down a TGV traveling at 196 mph? Intercity and long-distance trains are not streetcars, interurbans nor buses and ought not be "flagged down" as though they were.

Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :

Waving anything predominantly red, yellow, or green by the trackside is asking for trouble. The engineer could interpret it as a hand signal from maintenance crew. If the engineer can't see the people in the station, then he should slow to a speed where he can. There should be no need for anything more than your presence at the trackside. I work in rail safety so this is why it is so important to me.

As for the point about flagging being a problem for Amtrak, think of it this way. If nobody was waiting to board/disembark, think how much time would be saved. A heavy train on an uphill grade will take several minutes to slow from a low speed (low enough to see if anybody's waiting), stop, release brakes, and accelerate up to speed again. Thus it is often actually *faster* being a flag stop rather than making it a permanent stop.

Geoff M.

Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :

quote:
Originally posted by geoffm:
Waving anything predominantly red, yellow, or green by the trackside is asking for trouble. The engineer could interpret it as a hand signal from maintenance crew. If the engineer can't see the people in the station, then he should slow to a speed where he can.

On the day mentioned in my previous post, it was raining, foggy, and visibility was questionable.

I've been a passenger on trains -- including the Pennsylvanian -- that have shot past flag stops without slowing down (hopefully, no passengers were waiting to board. . .but who knows?)

I've also experienced being "accidentally bypassed" by other modes of transport that use flag stops (Greyhound buses, multi-stop river ferries, and some rapid transit systems at lightly-patronized stations).

So I've learned -- the hard way -- not to leave my fate entirely in the hands of an approaching engineer-driver-operator.

You're taking an awfully big chance if you automatically presume that an Amtrak engineer is not only alert but immune to distractions -- and that he'll see you waiting on the platform in every lighting or weather condition.

Especially when the next train won't come along until the following day.

[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 11-18-2003).]

Posted by jst3751 (Member # 1454) on :

quote:
Originally posted by irishchieftain:
IMHO, retaining flag stops subtracts from what really should be the goal of once again having world-class interstate/long-distance passenger rail traveling at high speeds. Who would even think of flagging down a TGV traveling at 196 mph? Intercity and long-distance trains are not streetcars, interurbans nor buses and ought not be "flagged down" as though they were.

TGV service is purposely designed as limited stop speed service, so that is a poor example. In many areas, Amtrak LD trains serve as the only form of long distance transportation in the area.

There is a distinct differenc in service provide between LD passenger trains, and High Speed passenger type trains.

Posted by wigwagfan (Member # 664) on :

quote:
Originally posted by geoffm:
[B]Waving anything predominantly red, yellow, or green by the trackside is asking for trouble. The engineer could interpret it as a hand signal from maintenance crew. If the engineer can't see the people in the station, then he should slow to a speed where he can. There should be no need for anything more than your presence at the trackside. I work in rail safety so this is why it is so important to me.[B]

Here's some flagstop info from the Alaska Railroad's Hurricane Turn, which has several flagstops:

Hurricane Turn
TALKEETNA ~ HURRICANE ~ TALKEETNA
Service May 15 - Sept. 14, 2003
Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Holidays

A local favorite - flag stop service

City Milepost Northbound Southbound
Hurricane 281.4 2:15 pm 3:30 pm
Chulitna 273.8 1:50 pm 3:55 pm
Canyon 268.4 1:35 pm 4:10 pm
Gold Creek 263.2 1:20 pm 4:30 pm
Sherman 257.7 1:05 pm 4:45 pm
Curry 248.5 12:50 pm 5:00 pm
Chase 236.2 12:27 pm 5:23 pm
Talkeetna 226.7 12:15 pm 5:45 pm

2003 Summer Hurricane Adult One-Way Fares*
From:
To: Talkeetna Chase Curry Sherman Gold Creek Canyon Hurricane
Talkeetna - $15 $15 $15 $20 $20 $33
Chase $15 - $15 $15 $15 $15 $20
Curry $15 $15 - $15 $15 $15 $20
Sherman $15 $15 $15 - $15 $15 $15
Gold Creek $20 $15 $15 $15 - $15 $15
Canyon $20 $15 $15 $15 $15 - $15
Hurricane $33 $20 $20 $15 $15 $15 -

View Route Map

Commuter Books: $80.00. Commuter books are for passengers using the Alaska Railroad for travel to and from their property along the rail belt. The commuter books may not be used for any commercial purpose.

*Children under 2 are free. Child fares (ages 2 - 11) are 50% of the Adult rates rounded up to the nearest dollar.

How to Flag Down a Train

The Hurricane Train offers Flag-Stop Service. To flag the train, stand 25 feet from the rail. Wave a large white cloth above your head until the engineer acknowledges you by sounding the train whistle. Remain 25 feet from the rail until the conductor has opened the door and motions you aboard. Use extreme caution at all times. Restrain your pets on a leash while the train is approaching or passing.

Posted by MPALMER (Member # 125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dnsommer:
Does the engineer slow down when approaching a flag stop in case someone is waiting?

I just tried this last weekend. Evidently they do slow down to see if anyone is there.
(So be sure to be trackside when the train comes...).
I posted an item on the Travel board.
MP

PS CulpeperVA is a flag stop for both the Cardinal and Crescent; their routes don't diverge until 'Orange' (not a stop) several miles further west.

[This message has been edited by MPALMER (edited 11-26-2003).]

Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :

Culpepper is an unconditional stop for the Cardinal, flag for the Crescent; strange but true.

Source; current National TT

Posted by MPALMER (Member # 125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gilbert B Norman:
Culpepper is an unconditional stop for the Cardinal, flag for the Crescent; strange but true.
Source; current National TT

You are right; how strange. There is a sign at the depot (Culpeper Visitor's Center; no ticket agents) but it gives no indication as to whether it is a flag or regular stop. Train times posted with stickers that are hard to read and need updating...
MP

Posted by irishchieftain (Member # 1473) on :

In many areas, Amtrak LD trains serve as the only form of long distance transportation in the area

Would you care to give a few examples? For the most part, this is not the case. The only example I know of would be the Empire Builder through Montana. Elsewhere on the Amtrak LD system, there is plenty of competing bus and air service.