RAILforum: Amtrak's 'International' not going out quietly

This is topic Amtrak's 'International' not going out quietly in forum Amtrak at RAILforum.

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Posted by Fan_Trains (Member # 2874) on :

From Trains.com:

Amtrak's "International," operating between Chicago and Toronto and slated to be terminated as a through train during the last weekend in April, is not going away quietly. During an equipment move on Feb 15 in Toronto to wye what was Amtrak's three-car eastbound International train 364 (operating in Ontario as VIA Rail Canada train 88) so it could become Monday's westbound VIA 85 (then Amtrak 365) to Chicago on the 16th, the rear passenger car struck a Canadian National locomotive at 12:35 a.m. Monday, Feb 16, injuring its crew. There were no injuries to the VIA crew switching the Amtrak equipment.

Amtrak Amfleet coach 44552 suffered major damage to one end, with a possible crack in the frame; Horizon coach 53503 derailed both trucks, and coach 54534 derailed one truck. The Amtrak locomotive, GE P42DC Genesis No. 27, did not derail.

The westbound Interational, train 365 for Monday, Feb. 16 was canceled and bus service was substituted from Toronto to Port Huron, Mich., where Amtrak took over, also busing passengers to Chicago. Amtrak indicated the cause of the incident was still under investigation.

The International is scheduled to be replaced by the "Blue Water," operating on the same route in the U.S. only, terminating at Port huron. VIA plans to continue operating its current Toronto-Sanria, Ont., service, two trains each way daily, but there will be no cross-border services offered.

well gang what is your reaction?

Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :

I am not really familiar with this route, but it seem like it should be a valuable link between Amtrak's Chicago hub and Via's system. I understand it isn't making money (what route is?) but has Amtrak done the math on losses from connecting passengers? Amtrak has made that mistake in the past, underestimating the economic value of an interconnnected system. Previous route cuts resulted in greater revenue losses (mostly from connecting traffic) than they saved in overhead by cutting routes. Are the only connections between the two systems to be at the extreme ends of our vast, shared continent? Doesn't sound like that would encourage as much travel between Amtrak and Via.

But since I'm not familiar with that region, maybe I'm missing something.

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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy

The Del Monte Club Car

Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :

I live in Toronto, and I take the route of the International, usually in the summer, for the Stratford Festival. I can't shed too many tears for the International since it departs Toronto at 6:35 am which is a most inconvenient hour. The last time I took the International, Chicago to Toronto, was in 1969 when it had a sleeper. There is no way I would take a 12 hour ride in a train with coach only service and no diner. I hope that Via will run the local Canadian portion of this route at a more reasonable time, and since it is only about two hours to Stratford, the coach is bearable. If Amtrak and Via are really serious about running a proper train from Toronto to Chicago (and New York as well), they will have to start operating first-class facilities if they expect people to endure such long runs. Again no tears for this train.

Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :

Mr. Toy - you are right; I used to live in Mich. and agree that the International was a valuable link between AMTRAK and VIA (not to mention a valuable link between two of the U.S. and Canada's MAJOR cities), and carried many thru passengers. I don't understand why they are discontinuing the service, unless it has something to do with the customs stop in Port Huron-Sarnia, or national security. I had also heard over the last few years that AMTRAK was considering replacing the service by a Chicago-Detroit/Windsor-Toronto through service, which theoretically would serve more population -- has anyone heard anything more on that? What about a thruway bus connection between Port Huron and Sarnia connecting with VIA 85/86(?), or has that gone the way of the St. Albans-Montreal connecting bus service?

Posted by ghCBNS (Member # 3093) on :

I've always thought a good solution to providing a cross border service between Toronto-Michigan and Chicago would be to construct a new, joint Amtrak/VIA station in Detroit.

Re-routing and a new station would also be required in Windsor. But I wonder if this is already in VIA’s plan. The current Windsor station has not been up-graded to the extent that other corridor stations have and it certainly needs it. They’re just waiting to see how things play out.

VIA's trains would terminate in Detroit and passengers would clear US Customs and Immigration inside the station (same as Amtrak in Vancouver now where Canada & US Customs share the same facility) Then continue their journey on a connecting Amtrak train to Chicago. In reverse, passengers would clear Canada Customs in the Detroit station prior to boarding their VIA train for Toronto. A through train, with passengers inspected onboard could also be an option.

When Canadians fly to the US from major Canadian airports they clear US Customs and Immigration in Canada prior to boarding the flight. This "Treaty" has been in place for many years and also has provisions for Canada Customs to work on US "soil" to pre-clear flights bound for Canada. Canada Customs do currently have agents in US ports to pre-clear shipping containers bound for Canada as does the US at ports in Halifax, Montreal & Vancouver. So the precedence is already there for a similar "pre-clear" scenario in a joint Detroit station.

The multiple schedules are already in place: 3/day each way Detroit-Chicago and 4/day each way Windsor-Toronto. Just bring them together in Detroit and you would have the option of 2 or 3 schedules a day each way between Toronto and Chicago connecting thru Detroit!

A large part of VIA's traffic out of Windsor is from the US. Just walk thru the parking lot at the Windsor station any day and look at the plates on the cars. It would certainly make it a lot easier for these passengers too to board in Detroit.

CP’s RDCs from Toronto terminated in Detroit in the ‘60s and CN sleeping cars would be ferried across the Detroit River and attached to trains in Windsor to continue on to Toronto.

Just seams to easy (or difficult when rail is concerned!)

Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :

Back in the 70's, when AMTRAK still used the old Michigan Central station in downtown Detroit, a Detroit-Toronto service was tried for a couple years, and I believe it was called the "Niagara Rainbow." It was partially funded by the Michigan DOT, but it didn't last very long, and I don't remember why. So it IS possible to have some kind of conecting service from Detroit to Toronto, although, as most of you probably know, the old Michigan Central station in downtown Detroit is no longer used -- AMTRAK built a "suburban" station several miles north of downtown, on Woodward Avenue, which now handles all Michigan AMTRAK trains, so it may not be possible to go into Canada any more, unless the old route through the Michigan Central station (if it still exists)is resurrected.

Posted by LateShoreLimited (Member # 2025) on :

Customs has a great deal to do with the cancellation of the train. I would not be surprised if the Maple Leaf eventually meets a similair fate.

Posted by BNSF 1088 (Member # 2400) on :

No customs does not it is the Freight RR that has the most delays on the International.

I have updated the Save Our Trains Michigan web site. http://mattmarderosian.tripod.com/saveourt...trainsmichigan/

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LOOK LISTEN LIVE
BEFORE CROSSING RR TRACKS

Posted by Ken V (Member # 1466) on :

Yes, you are all right... This is still a big loss for those of us who ride this train.

royaltrain... I agree that the timing of this train is not very friendly for us in Toronto, which is why I have only used the later Sunday departures. An overnight sleeper service could work for us but would not help local Michigan travellers.

RRRICH... The route through Detroit would be a better alternative but nothing has been said about this recently. I'm hoping this is something Amtrak and VIA are keeping up their sleeve. Probably just wishful thinking. The "Niagara Rainbow" travelled on tracks that no longer exist.

ghCBNS... Great idea! A through train is preferred but your suggestion makes good sense.

BNSF_1088... Customs can't be counted out. Yes it was the frieght railroads (CN and Conrail (NS)) that caused the biggest delays to these trains but the attitude of the Customs and Immigration officers did make this trip unpleasant too.

[This message has been edited by Ken V (edited 02-26-2004).]