RAILforum: Every Coach has one

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Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :

In every Coach I've been on, I keep seeing this little plac that says: Fully Equiped FRA Part 223 Glazing...

Whats that mean?

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JONATHON D. ORTIZ

Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :

I'm gonna take a stab at this. I think it refers to the window glass that conforms to crash test standards so as not to injure people if it breaks. Or maybe it refers to its resistance to breakage.

Posted by Sheriff (Member # 2521) on :

You got it Mr. Troy. Basicly called bullet proof glass. It is double paned glass that to tell the truth is not completely shatter proof. I have seen it stop bullets before. It will go almost through the first pane but not the second. At least not that I've seen. I have seen the inside window cracked and badly but never all the way through. Usually this was done with either large rocks, railroad spikes, or tie plates. Seems like a good arm and the right object does more damage than the bullets.

Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :

Somehow I don't think the original intention was "bullet proof"!! My Toy is right - it's the same sort of glass for your car windscreen. Sticky stuff in the middle so if it breaks, it doesn't shatter (much - it's not perfect) all over the occupants of the seats beside the window.

Geoff M.

Posted by Sheriff (Member # 2521) on :

geoffm:
Apparently you've not been on to many US trains. There is not a trip that goes by that I don't get rocked by the kids at least once on the train. Shot at about two times a year. They DID NOT put shatter proof glass in the windows just for pebbles bouncing up from the ground like they do on the highways. You will not find double paine glass in any cars although they also have a film in the middle of the glass to prevent the glass from coming into your lap.

Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :

The Coast Starlight I was ridding got hit with about 200 Paint Balls, My Coach took about 10 Paint Balls on one side.

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JONATHON D. ORTIZ

Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :

The requrement can be found in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49 - Transportation, Subtitle B-Other Regulations Relating to Transportation, Chapter II - Federal Railroad Administration, Department of Transportation, Part 223 Safety glazing standards-locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses. It can be found on the web at www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/49cfr223_03.html These are pdf files numbered paragraph by numbered paragraph, but the file each has at least a full page, so if you download, look or you may have the same page more than once if the numbererd paragraphs in the regualation are short. The whole part 223 is only 6 pages.

Yes, the glass is supposed to be bulletproof, also dropped / thrown concrete block proof. It is required to be two layers and the bullet may penetrate the outside layer but not the inside layer.

To quote Mr. Toy, never mistake opinion for truth.

This stuff is as far beyond automobile glass as a SD45 is beyond a highway truck.

Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :

I've noticed that Viewliner sleeping car windows tend to be completely covered with a fine network of tiny scratches and abrasions.

When the windows are hit by either direct sunlight or bright artificial lights (like those used in rail yards), those abrasions act like millions of tiny prisms, diffusing the light into a solid wall of glare that makes it virtually impossible to see anything outside. Very annoying.

Because of this, I've always presumed that Viewliner windows aren't true glass, but some sort of unbreakable plexiglas/polymer -- similar to the cheaper "ghetto glass" used for bus windows in many urban areas.

If Viewliner windows are indeed real glass, why all the scratches? It's a problem I've never noticed on Amtrak's Superliners, Amfleets, Horizons, or Heritage cars.

Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :

CFR49part223 never says glass. It always uses the term "glazing" As written, this cfr is in the nature of a "performance specification" That is, is gives the impact resistance requirements for the window material and where material metting this requirement must be used but does not have any requirement as to what the material must be. For the actual material, someone else will have to answer.

Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :

Sheriff - yes I have. Your comment "You will not find double paine [sic] glass in any cars although they also have a film in the middle of the glass to prevent the glass from coming into your lap." seems to contradict itself, unless I'm misunderstanding you, ie the reference to *no* double panes and a film in the middle. Which is akin to what I said about the sticky stuff in the middle.

The reference to car windscreens was "the same sort of", not "the same as". If it is indeed bullet proof, I'm sure that was not the sole intention. Kids throwing rocks at trains seems to be a far more common experience than shooting, in my (obviously less than yours) experience.

Geoff M.

Posted by rr_conductor (Member # 2590) on :

Part 223 SAFETY GLAZING STANDARDS-LOCOMOTIVES, PASSENGER CARS AND CABOOSES (Sections 223.1 - 223.17)
D. Safety glazing standards (part 223). This part provides that passenger car windows be equipped with FRA-certified glazing materials in order to reduce the likelihood of injury to railroad employees and passengers from the breakage and shattering of windows and avoid ejection of passengers from the vehicle in a collision. This part, in addition to requiring the existence of at least four emergency windows, also requires window markings and operating instructions for each emergency window, as well as for each window intended for emergency access, so as to provide the necessary information for evacuation of a passenger car. FRA will not permit operations to occur on the general system in the absence of effective alternatives to the requirements of this part that provide an equivalent level of safety. The petition should explain what equivalent safeguards are in place to provide the same assurance as part 223 that passengers and crewmembers are safe from the effects of objects striking a light rail vehicle's windows. The petition should also discuss the design characteristics of its equipment when it explains how the safety of its employees and passengers will be assured during an evacuation in the absence of windows meeting the specific requirements of this part. A light rail system that has a system safety program plan developed under FTA's rule may be able to demonstrate that the plan satisfies the safety goals of this part.

Posted by Sheriff (Member # 2521) on :

geoffm;
You obviously didn't read Mr. George Harris' reply.
I quote;
"Yes, the glass is supposed to be bulletproof, also dropped / thrown concrete block proof. It is required to be two layers and the bullet may penetrate the outside layer but not the inside layer".

The glass I am talking about has a film in in the middle of the first glass then AIR between the outside glass and inside glass. The inside glass also has a film in the middle of it. If you break the outside glass, with the momentum of the projectile coming towards the train, and it doesn't break the inside glass the fragments of glass fall down in between the two paines of glass. Thus it has two different layers of glass, both with a film in the middle. Although it is simular to the car windshields of today, it realisticly is nothing like them at all. And yes it is bullet proof.
I think this statement you made just about covers it all. "in my (obviously less than yours) experience".
The difference between you and me as to how many times the train gets shot at or rocked is that you are just another passenger who knows nothing that is going on with the train unless it happen's directly to you. With me being the Conductor it's my job to know EVERYTHING that goes on with my train at all times. It's also my employees job to inform me of everything, no matter how small or how big the incident.

dilly:
Yea they do use plexiglass in the windows for the same reason. The reason they are scratched up is due to the train washer. Think about your brand new car going through a car wash with the brushes scraping along side of your car. You do that a few dozen times and you lose the shine to your car,right? They didn't think about that when they put the plexiglass in. This is exactly what happens to them. We pull the train through the train washer and the brushes scratch the windows. That is why they have gone to the new DOT FRA part 223 windows so they will not scratch. My guess is someday they will replace them if they ever get enough money. It cost about $500 to replace one when it gets broken.

Posted by rr_conductor (Member # 2590) on :

All locomotives, cabooses, passenger coaches except.....locomotives used in switching service in the yard are required to be equipped with FRA-certified glazing materials per FRA 49 cfr part 223, I have seen this material for my entire 20 year career.

As provided in this part, certified glazing materials installed in locomotives, passenger cars, or cabooses must be certified by the glazing manufacturer in accordance with the following procedures:
a. General Requirements
(1) Each manufacturer that provides glazing materials, intended by the manufacturer for use in achieving compliance with the requirements of this part, shall certify that each type of glazing material being supplied for this purpose has been succcessfully tested in accordance with this appendix and that test verification data is available to a railroad or to FRA upon request.
(2) The test verification data shall contain all pertinent original data logs and documentation that the selection of material samples, test set-ups, test measuring devices, and test procedures were performed by qualified personnel using recognized and acceptable practices and in accordance with this appendix.
b. Testing Requirements
(1) The material to be tested (Target Material) shall be a full scale sample of the largest dimension intended to be produced and installed.
(2) The Target Material shall be representative of production material and shall be selected on a documented random choice basis.
(3) The Target Material shall be securely and rigidly attached in a fixture so that the fixture's own characteristics will not induce test errors.
(4) The Target Material so selected and attached shall constitute a Test Specimen.
(5) The Test Specimen will then be equipped with a Witness Plate that shall be mounted parallel to and at a distance of six inches in back of the Target Material. The Witness Plate shall have at least an area which will cover the full map of the Target Material.
(6) The Witness Plate shall be an unbacked sheet of maximum 0.006 inch, alloy 1100 temper O, aluminum stretched within the perimeter of a suitable frame to provide a taut surface.
(7) The Test Specimen will be positioned so that the defined projectile impacts it at an angle of 90 degrees to the Test Specimen surface.
(8) The point of impact of the defined projectile will be within a radius of 3´´ of the centroid of the Target Material.
(9) Velocity screens or other suitable velocity measuring devices will be positioned so as to measure the impact velocity of the defined projectile within a 10% accuracy tolerance, with test modifications made to guarantee that the stipulated minimum velocity requirements are met.
(10) The Test Specimen for glazing material that is intended for use in end facing glazing locations shall be subjected to a Type I test regimen consisting of the following tests:
(i) Ballistic Impact in which a standard 22 caliber long rifle lead bullet of 40 grains in weight impacts at a minimum of 960 feet per second velocity.
(ii) Large Object Impact in which a cinder block of 24 lbs minimum weight with dimensions of 8 inches by 8 inches by 16 inches nominally impacts at the corner of the block at a minimum of 44 feet per second velocity. The cinder block must be of composition referenced in American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) Specification C33L or ASTM C90.
(11) The Test Specimen for glazing material that is intended for use only in side facing glazing locations shall be subjected to a Type II test regimen consisting of the following tests:
(i) Ballistic Impact in which a standard 22 caliber long rifle lead bullet of 40 grains in weight impacts at a minimum of 960 feet per second velocity.
(ii) Large Object Impact in which a cinder block of 24 lbs minimum weight with dimensions of 8 inches by 8 inches by 16 inches nominally impacts at the corner of the block at a minimum of 12 feet per second velocity. The cinder block must be of the composition referenced in ASTM C33L or ASTM C90.
(12) Three different test specimens must be subjected to the ballistic impact portion of these tests.
(13) Two different test specimens must be subjected to the large object impact portion of these tests.
(14) A material so tested must perform so that:
(i) there shall be no penetration of the back surfaces (side closest to Witness Plate) of the Target Material by the projectile. Partial penetration of the impact (front) surface of the Target Material does not constitute a failure; and
(ii) there shall be no penetration of particles from the back side of the Target Material through the back side of the prescribed Witness Plate.
(15) Test specimens must consecutively pass the required number of tests at the required minimum velocities. Individual tests resulting in failures at greater than the required minimum velocities may be repeated but a failure of an individual test at less than the minimum velocity shall result in termination of the total test and failure of the material.
(16) After successful completion of the prescribed set of required consecutive tests, a manufacturer may certify in writing that a particular glazing material meets the requirements of these standards.
c. Material Identification
(1) Each individual unit of glazing material shall be permanently marked, prior to installation, to indicate that this type of material has been successfully tested as set forth in this appendix and that marking shall be done in such a manner that it is clearly visible after the material has been installed.
(2) Each individual unit of a glazing material that has successfully passed the Type I testing regimen shall be marked to indicate:
(i) "FRA Type I'' material;
(ii) the manufacturer of the material;
(iii) the type or brand identification of the material.
(3) Each individual unit of a glazing material that has successfully passed the Type II testing regimen shall be marked to indicate:
(i) "FRA Type II'' material;
(ii) the manufacturer of the material;
(iii) the type or brand identification of the material.

[This message has been edited by rr_conductor (edited 03-02-2004).]

Posted by dilly (Member # 1427) on :

Aha! So the windows on the Viewliners are made of plexiglas -- and cheesy plexiglas at that. I guess that's not surprising, considering the "cheesiness" of the car's overall design.

But are the generally scratch-free panes used on Amfleets, Superliners, and Horizons simply made of higher-quality plastic? Or does the equipment Amtrak uses for washing them (particularly out west) have a "gentler" touch?

[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 03-02-2004).]

Posted by The Chief (Member # 2172) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dilly:
I've noticed that Viewliner sleeping car windows tend to be completely covered with a fine network of tiny scratches and abrasions.

Dilly, I'm glad someone else saw that too. I really noticed it riding the Silver Star in December, and had seen that condition on the Late Shore Limited, too. Whew.

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_________Thë Çhîeƒ
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Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :

I believe the superliners are glass, again, whoever really knows, please say so.

We see here another example of the difference between sales spiels and reality. The plastic used in the windows is advertized as being "scratch resistant" But the question left unanswered is, "in relation to what?" Glass? Other plastices? Soft butter? Some of the plastics used in windows have also been found to become hazy after long exposure to ultrviolet light. Guess what one of the components of sunlight is! Government agencies and large businesses can sometimes seeem to be as easily taken in by a good sales job as the most gullible shopper.

Posted by Geoff Mayo (Member # 153) on :

Sheriff, I stand corrected, no problem admitting that. No need to be so aggressive, especially when commenting on my reading abilities (spot the "sic"). However, please note that I did say "not the original intention", not that it is not bullet proof.

You say passengers "know nothing that is going on with the train unless it happen's directly to you". While we obviously cannot possibly know everything going on, a scanner-carrying passenger (me) can know a whole lot more than your average passenger.

Geoff M.

[This message has been edited by geoffm (edited 03-04-2004).]

Posted by Sheriff (Member # 2521) on :

geoffm: My appoligies for being agressive. I was in the wrong for some of the crude statments I made. I do not like that kind of conversation from myself or anyone else. It's just that I have put literally millions of miles on rolling stock riding trains in my career. I am not always right, I'm human and do make mistakes. I do understand that your statement is your opinion and that's OK. By the way having the scanner does give you an upper hand on the other passengers. Although we try not to use the radio any more than we have too.

George: yes the superliners do have plastic windows. It's good because they will not break but it's bad because after a few years they do get hazy. Amtrak just doesn't have the money to replace them so the passenger can have a better view at the world going by. Almost all of our cars out on the west coast are so scratched up it's hard to get a good picture to come out.
Now the Capitol Corridor cars do have glass and I lose about 2 windows everytime I make that 2 1/2 hour trip from SAC to SJC everyday from the rock throwers. I have lost as many as 5 windows in one trip. It cost a lot more money to have glass because of the replacement cost.