RAILforum: My Amtrak Proposal

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Posted by North American Railroader (Member # 3398) on :

This is my plan if I were the President of Amtrak?

Step 1: The number one thing that needs to be done is to lobby to Congress for more money. I would demand two to five times the amount of money Amtrak currently receives.

Step 2: Next I would purchase 30 single level train sets, each consisting of a baggage car, crew dorm, three coaches, a café - business class car, a dining car, and two modified (working air conditioning) viewliners.

Step 3: Ten of the 30 sets would be pooled with all current single level trains, to increase capacity in peak seasons and to create more flexibility. Two - four of these pooled viewliners would be used to reinstate sleeping car service to the Palmetto. The other 20 sets would be used to equip new overnight trains between: Boston and Halifax, New York and Montreal, New York / Boston - Detroit - Chicago, Buffalo and Cincinnati, New York and St. Louis, Norfolk and Chicago, Miami and Chicago, Miami and Cincinnati, Washington and Mobile, and Washington and Mobile.

Step 4: I would reroute one of the New York and Florida trains, and either the Miami - Chicago or the Miami - Cincinnati train via the FEC route from JAX to MIA (which is quicker than the current routes and taps an untapped market).

Step 5: Next, I would purchase 50 sets of super liner equipment (baggage car, transition sleeper, 3 coaches, lounge, diner, two sleepers). Twenty of these sets would be pooled with current trains. The other thirty would be used for service between Miami and New Orleans, New Orleans and Kansas City, Chicago - Denver - Portland, Chicago - Denver - Los Angeles, and New Orleans and Denver (maybe as far as Seattle).

Here?s a list of my proposed service and names (* is for overnight service)
Gull* Boston - Halifax
New Yorker* New York City - Montreal
Wolverine* Boston/New York - Detroit - Chicago
Nickel Plate Limited* Buffalo - Cincinnati
Mercury Cleveland - Chicago
Spirit of St. Louis* New York - St. Louis
George Washington* Norfolk - Chicago
Hoosier Chicago - Indianapolis
Thoroughbred Chicago - Louisville
City of Miami* Chicago - Miami
Royal Palm* Cincinnati - Miami
Gulf Wind* Miami - New Orleans
Piedmont Asheville extension
Southerner* Washington - Mobile
Tennessean* Washington - Memphis
Alton Limited Chicago - Kansas City
Twin Cities Chicago - Minnespolis
Southern Belle* Kansas City - New Orleans
City of Portland* Chicago - Denver - Portland
Desert Wind* Chicago - Denver - Los Angeles
New Orleans Zephyr* New Orleans - Denver

Here?s what I?ve said, tell me what you think.

Posted by snake (Member # 2430) on :

You gonna pay with cash, check or credit card?

Posted by pelarson (Member # 3382) on :

All I can say is "DUDE!!! That is some fine s**t you are smokin'. Got more?"

Now if someone could convince or get enough blackmail info on the politicians to bring about the needed funding.

[This message has been edited by pelarson (edited 08-04-2004).]

Posted by TheBriz09 (Member # 3166) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North American Railroader:
This is my plan if I were the President of Amtrak?
Step 1: The number one thing that needs to be done is to lobby to Congress for more money. I would demand two to five times the amount of money Amtrak currently receives.

Just out of curiosity, which part of that has Mr. Gunn NOT done? He has "demanded" $1.8 billion for FY04 and got about $1.2 billion.

Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :

Actually, the first step is to develop a long-term national rail plan, that considers both freight and passenger needs. When I talk about passenger needs, these should be determined through real demographic and market studies that show where the riders are and where they want to go. From that a realistic route network can be determined.

Next, we need to find out what sort of infrastructure and equipment upgrades are needed to provide for those routes, so that both passenger and freight traffic can coexist and meet projected growth well into the future, a good 20 years out.

With all that information in hand, we can develop a realistic PLAN. Once a plan is in place, you can start asking for money. Congress won't hand out money without a clearly defined and justifiable plan.

Plan first, money second. Ever hear of an investor that gave money to a business that had no business plan? Why should Amtrak be any different?

Gunn's 5-year plan is a start, but there is still no vision, no long-term goals, hence Congress' reluctance to hand out money.

Posted by Big Merl (Member # 3251) on :

A few cheaper improvements would include extending the KC Mule to Omaha and splitting the Sunset into two trains.
Equipment wise, right now the two biggest needs appear to be sleepers and baggage cars.
Pie in the sky though? MagLev traing from NYP to Chicago.

Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :

Doing it with equipment is way less than half the picture. Before we do this, we have to spend it on track to be able to at least match reasonable driving times, so here is the start of my wish list for track improvements:

1. Rerail ATC, 110 mph Kansas City to Albuquerque, then add third track on the long grades Albuquerque to Los Angeles, maybe also a Cajon tunnel, then have at least three daily 36 hour trains Chi to LA

2. Replace double track on the old ACL line all the way to Auburndale, straighten some of the Florida curves, set 90 to 110 speed limit. Run at least 4 to 6 trains. Also improve old SAL to at least 79 mph.

3. Double track Sunset Route throughout, straighten curves, some third track on long grades, ATC, 90 mph plus. Run at least two trains about 12 apart.

4. Signal the Florida panhandle line, add sidings for reliability, at least 79 mph on eastern part of Sunset.

5. Double track the northern High Line, new and lower double track Cascade Tunnel. (The general good operation of the Empire is more a credit to BNSF operations than to the adequacy of line capacity.)

6. Add a third track and upgrade to 110 mph the old NYC "water level route", have at least 4 trains per day at 15 h or faster.

7. Improve the old Pennsy line to allow 15 to 16 hour New York to Chicago times, again, at least 4 trains per day.

8. Finish the Chicago to St. Louis upgrade to 110 mph with complete rerail, real ATC.

9. Rerail 79 mph St. Louis to Poplar Bluff, double track remaining Texas Eagle route, imporve tracks to enable the old three branch version of the Eagle.

10. Raise the St. Louis to KC line above the Missouri River flood elevation, make double track throughout, run at least 4 trains per day at 79 mph or increase to 110 mph.

11. Double track, realign as needed to achieve a 14 hour or less Chicago to Atlanta time over either the C&EI Evansville route or via Indianapolis and Louisville. Carry the imporvements south of Atlanta to get to Jacksonville in another 6 hours.

12. Rebuild Atlanta to Bimrmingham to get time to under 3 hours.

The list could go on and on. Priorites are flexible. You can not run fast, or even reasonable scheduled trains without fast track. If we are not willing to spend huge amounts of money on improved track and alignments, we are only fooling ourselves, and basically doing what the RR companies did in the Streamliner era. After all, we have had massive expenditures upgrading the highway network over the last 60 year while the spending on the railroad network has not even been enough to maintain standing in place as far as running time is concerned.

Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :

Soon as the Clockers are handed over to NJT, you will have a flush set of Amfleets available. There's at least three sets of Clockers - each with about 10 cars a piece (may be 12 - have not counted, but have used them). All kinds of mixed cars in the consists - business class cars, Amfleet II's, Amfleet I's (capstone, older interiors, newer interiors) and cafe cars (even though there's no cafe service).

We even got some of the Adirondack Heritage cars on the Clockers for a short time to increase capacity - then they went away... Tons of complaints about their use on the Clockers (from passengers at least that I can substantiate).

Posted by boyishcolt (Member # 3001) on :

George,
drawing a blank
what is ATC again?

Posted by polarbearucla (Member # 2723) on :

I think I'd build a high speed line from LA to Los Vegas, and another one between Dallas and Houston (perhpas connecting San Antonio and Austin as well).

And if you have read my previous posts, you know what id do w/ ld routes

Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :

ATC = Automatic Train Control. Actually, somewhat generic as I used it. Either ATC, ATS (automatic train stop) or cab signals are the minimum requirements to be able to run "passenger trains at speeds of 80 mph or higher"

To Polarbearacula: Get your blinders off. If the passenger miles per train miles are on the long distance trains, then they should run. It is not a question of what your opinion is or what you yourself would use, but of what the demand is. It is overwhelmingly evident that the there is a demand for the long distance trains. At this time it is as much limited by equipment availablity and the time frames operated as by what the demand would be if the service were available. A lot of city pairs, or city strings would be a better way of putting it, that would have quite good ridership if the service existed. If the trains could run reliably on time, demand would probably increase exponentially.

AS to LA to Las Vegas, does anyone know, and I am sure that it has been studied, what the total travel between those locations is and what the potential rail share would be? Several years ago when Philadelphia to Atlantic City service was reinstated, a few Amtrak trains were run along with the New Jersey Transit commuter service based on a calculaed demand of some 300 passengers per trip (somebody correct me if my number is wrong) but the demand proved to not be there due, I would suspec, to the large number of bus charters operated.

For the Texas Triangle, if the improvements in my list actually happened, that is covered, except Dall-FtW to Houston. Yes, it should have rail service, but I consider D-H to be the least likely to have a large travel demand convertible to rail becuase there are no medium large cities in between the end points. Yes, I know about Corsicana and Bryan-College Station. But, Houston - San Antonio is shorter and on the other leg you have Dall-FtW to Waco to Austin to San Antonio at 100 mile or less intervals. For the Texas Triangle end points, we are also left with the question, who is going to put Southwest airlines out of business?

Posted by MPALMER (Member # 125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Harris:

AS to LA to Las Vegas, does anyone know, and I am sure that it has been studied, what the total travel between those locations is and what the potential rail share would be?
Several years ago when Philadelphia to Atlantic City service was reinstated, a few Amtrak trains were run along with the New Jersey Transit commuter service based on a calculaed demand of some 300 passengers per trip (somebody correct me if my number is wrong) but the demand proved to not be there due, I would suspec, to the large number of bus charters operated.
[/B]

1. The LA to Las Vegas run has been studied extensively. I-15 is a heavily traveled route for this trip.

I don't think that high-speed rail will be planned or built anytime soon because the vast majority of trips are people taking money OUT of Calif. and spending it in Nevada. Calif. is not going to invest $Billions to help even more $ flow out.
The return of "regular" Amtrak service has been held up for environmental reasons, route congestion, capital shortfall (equipment shortage), etc.

2. I recall reading that Amtrak bailed out of the Atlantic City run because, as you mentioned, the turn-around buses with "free gambling money" were much more attractive to riders. NJ Transit still operates trains on the Philadelphia-Atlantic City route, though.

Posted by Mike Smith (Member # 447) on :

The Texas plan is now called the Texas T-Bone. It will have the San Antonio to Dallas corridor and the "T" part will be the Houston to Austin corridor.

That would allow the Sunset to be terminated at Houston and the Texas Eagle to continue to LA (when the equipment and the track allow such a change)...

Or we could attempt to get our congress critters to implement Interstate II and completely revamp our rail system.

Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :

Mr. Toy is deffinetly right when he says you have to have a really good plan before you get the money. The goverment doesnt give money out.

But I think your plan is good with some thinkingand a bit of changing...But I do think Amtrak might need a few more single level trains.

And more parlour cars on other trains, its really given the CS a kick I think...

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...

ADS ADS ADS!!!!

I think you need ads everywhere! Catchy good ads on TV, Radio, newspaper, magazine, bilboard, but there has to be something good to advertise!

------------------
--Anton L.
pillsbury09@excite.com
AIM: pillsburyMN

Posted by North American Railroader (Member # 3398) on :

Thats an interesting thing I've been noticing lately, Amtrak has been advertising more. A few examples are: I've seen Amtrak advertisements on a few different websites, including (for a time) ESPN. Also, while I was in San Diego, there was a fireworks show (on the 3rd of July), at Petco Park, sponsored by Amtrak. What a stun that was to me! Anyways, you are right. The number one goal should be to attract more passangers, or at least, more supporters. You know what I miss? Commercials. When was the last one? I have seen them forever. Anyways, bottomline, commercials, billboards, you name it. Amtrak needs to spread the word. Too many people (mostly younger people like myself) don't even know you can take the train cross county, it's a shame.

Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :

Yes deffinertly commercials, the bilboards I saw in LA that say "Amtrak Pacific Surfliner" 10 trains daily or something..are good but dont do what a TV comercial can do. But there hace to be improvements before they spend money on ad campaigns. People might be influenced by the ads but if that train is late or they dont like something..they wont be riding again and amtraks not looking for 1-time riders.

Plan=money+ads=improved ridership and a better Amtrak!!

------------------
--Anton L.
pillsbury09@excite.com
AIM: pillsburyMN

Posted by UncleBuck44 (Member # 2049) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North American Railroader:
Hoosier Chicago - Indianapolis

Doesnt this one already exsist?

Posted by espeefoamer (Member # 2815) on :

None of this will work as long as railroads like Union Pacific keep delaying the trains.The Sunset hasnt been on time in the last three months

. I don't know what fixing this will require.Then Congress has to get thier heads on straight and put Amtrak on an equal standing with highway and airline funding.

------------------
Trust Jesus,Ride Amtrak.

Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :

Congress isn't going to get involved until the freight railroads are on the brink of complete collapse. Then there'll be cries for massive bailouts, and the accompanying counter arguments to let them go under.

Then Washington will authorize a bailout, but only with strings attached to accommodate some public benefit, such as...passenger trains! One can only hope.

Posted by SilverStar092 (Member # 2652) on :

I agree with North American and Mr. Toy about the need for more equipment AND a plan. Amtrak never has seriously pushed for expansion of their fleet. When new cars have been added, they have soon been offset by the retirement of older cars and engines. This keeps sleeper fares from becoming more reasonable and makes it impossible to add service. This summer they are short on equipment which could be a critical issue if any more accidents happen. They need to lobby for more cars after setting up a good plan.