It is simply the economics; the cost of a seat or room in a Superliner is so much more favorable that in a Viewliner or LD configured Amfleet-II.
But, single level cars do offer the advantage of a smoother ride. I think they are also probably capable of faster speeds, and if such becomes possible in the future, that may be the way they'll go.
But if there is a Superliner III, they'd better have bigger rest rooms, or I'll be very angry.
------------------
Sing to the tune of Humoresque:
Passengers will please refrain,
From flushing toilets while the train,
Is standing in the station,
I love you.
The FRA limit is actually more of a comfort issue than a safety issue, unless you are a double stack container car where the center of gravity may be up to 9.5 feet above the rail. Tilting equipment has gone up to 12 inches unbalance, but you are hugely increasing your wheel flange and rail wear when you do this.
The wear issues are why railroads have traditionally had slower freight speeds than passenger speeds on curves. You are keeping the speed to the point that enables you to squeeze the maximum life out of the hardware. High center of gravity cars and teh possibility of shifting loads also make it desirable to keep the freight speed closer to the balance speed on the curves.
Tilting a two level coach would probably be possible, but you would need lots of space around the track and to think carefully about how close to the edge of reasonable safety you want to get your resultant force.
Teh old rule of thumb was that if the resultant force was in the middle third of the space between rails, no safety issues. For all practical purposses this means within 10 inches of track centerline on a standard gauge track. 12 inches unbalance on single level equipment is pushing this. For the superliner, the limit would be about 7 inches. In both cases, the engines would probably go first because theire center of gravity is higher.
Only problem is that I'm afraid you would loose one "module" if the stairwell were still to be center car.
Add a small window to the top of the standard sleeper compartments for the upper bunk occupant. This could be as small as a 1 foot by 3 foot window with a pull shade.
Add video screens to each sleeper room and several in the coaches with headphone plug-ins (similar to the airline style headphones). The headphones would be a huge plus in the Sightseer/Lounge Car. The movies shown there are either too loud or too soft. I cannot remember any time when the sound level was just right. Add a camera to the front of each train and pipe it into the video system so we can see what’s coming up and be prepared for the photo opportunity.
Put a narrative on channel 3 throughout all the cars whenever we are traveling through scenic and/or historic land. Put the train crew on channel 4, so we can keep up with any delays, problems, interesting sites, and/or “sister” train meets. Channels 1 and 2 could continue to be train announcements. These audio channels should be accessible in sleepers, lounges, and coaches via headphones so no passenger is forced to listen to anything, and the passengers interested in these items can access them at any time by simply plugging into the nearest audio jack.
My wife came up with an excellent suggestion for the new Superliner III coaches. Some are coach-smokers, so why couldn’t some be coach-exercise cars? Have large windows with stationary bikes and stair climbers pointed at the windows so we can burn some calories between meals!
Several years ago, when I used to smoke, I recommended venting the smoke outside, instead of re-circulating it and stinking up that coach-smoker car. I don’t know what Amtrak did, but the coach-smokers smell a lot better, now. I have trouble telling which one is the smoker. Congratulations!
When the Superliner III’s are designed, bring back the push button in the restrooms! Unfortunately, during our May trip, I caught the bug that was running rampant through the employees and passengers on the May 9 & 10 Seattle to LAX train. This “virus” made itself known to me on the May 10-11 Sunset Limited part of my trip. Courtesy flushes are much easier with the push button as opposed to standing, shutting the lid, re-opening the lid, and sitting back down.
Also, if the design engineers can find an additional inch or two side to side in the sleeper restrooms and an additional inch or two front to back, that would make a huge difference in the maneuverability in the “room”.
Lose the John Wayne toilet paper! Get something like Angel Soft. Having the experience of spending most of my last Sunset Limited trip in the restrooms, I would have really preferred the soft stuff. L I had another idea (Yes, I spent a lot of time in the restroom, thinking and waiting). To keep everything clean for the next passenger, I created a layer of toilet paper in the bottom of the bowl just before sitting down (when I had time). Perhaps a cone (similar to the type of paper used to put over the toilet seats) that fits inside the bowl could be used to keep everything “tidy” and facilitate the removal of all “matter”. (No stickage)
Maybe even incorporate it into the seat paper pull-out
quote:
Originally posted by royaltrain:
If there ever should be a Superliner III, all the bedrooms should have toilets and sinks like the viewliners and the older heritage fleet.
The best reason to keep all "facilities" out of the rooms:
Moving trains + in-room toilets + male passengers with lousy aim means that every adjacent Viewliner seat and the surrounding carpeting have -- at some point -- been thoroughly hosed down with something other than sparkling spring water.
I'm sure you catch my drift.
Amtrak secured an FRA waiver to operate Amfleet at 5 inches unbalance along the shore in CT and RI; it made me a bit dizzy, but otherwise was reasonably comfortable.
I don't think anyone would really consider double-deck tilt trains because of the clearance problems you mention.
I'm afraid the best we have to hope for, outside the corridors, is a sort of "Superliner III".
I am sure that there are many ideas that others can add that would make Train travel a more comfortable and enjoyable experience. Many surprisingly cost effective if done well. (With proper planning and implementation.)
Dee
Photos here: http://www.narprail.org/newsuper.htm
Thanks for the link, Mr. Toy!
It looks pretty nice, though. Hopefully, the quality of the materials and workmanship is considerably better than that found inside the Viewliners, or it's not going to stay nice for very long.
quote:
Originally posted by dilly:
The best reason to keep all "facilities" out of the rooms:Moving trains + in-room toilets + male passengers with lousy aim means that every adjacent Viewliner seat and the surrounding carpeting have -- at some point -- been thoroughly hosed down with something other than sparkling spring water.
I'm sure you catch my drift.
I have travelled in Viewliner standard and deluxe bedrooms many times, and as for the former I have never noticed the unpleasantness created by the notorious male passenger. Of course the deluxe has a separate enclosed toilet area that solves the male "spraying" problem. As a footnote, in the roomette still used by Via the bed is always put up and away when the toilet is being used, which is much better than the Viewliner's toilet position in the standard bedroom (right next to the bed and in the line of fire). Perhaps in a future Superliner III Amtrak could reposition the toilet and consider putting a public toilet in these sleepers as well.
quote:
Originally posted by royaltrain:
I have never noticed the unpleasantness created by the notorious male passenger.
Sleeper passengers aren't saints. They're just as slovenly as those who decorate the floors and walls of Amtrak's more "communal" onboard toilets (not to mention every public men's room on the planet).
Amtrak carpeting and seat cushions go for years without being replaced. Which is precisely why I never sit in the seat next to the toilet, and only use the upper berth at night.
As somebody once said, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it ain't there.
[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 08-22-2004).]
A few changes:
Coach Car types:
Coaches would also include Business Class type cars with more room between seats.
1. Baggage/Bicycle Coaches
This is similar to the 6960-series Surfliners used on the Capitols.
On routes where there are some stations which do not handle checked baggage (such as the Sunset, which has a prolifferation of unstaffed stations.) The luggage area would be able to handle 15 bicycles.
Coach-Cafe Cars:
The cafe area would take up the same area as on the lower level of 6300-series Surfliners. Booth seating would be available for more than four booths worth of riders.
Family Coaches:
The "Kiddie" car as it is known on the Coast Starlight would expand to all new Superliner routes and to those existing trains which remain.
Lounge Coaches:
For routes with tons of scenery, such as the Starlight and Zephyr, there would be a glass-topped roof line similar to the 33000 series lounges. Downstairs, the seating area would be replaced with a bar area.
Diner/Lounge Combinations:
The lounge half of the car would be a glass-topped car from center to the "B" end of the car. The "A" end would provide table seating similar to that which is found on the lower level of lounges 33000-33024. These could be used as food service on the Empire Builder's Seattle Section for food service between SEA and SPK.
First Class: This concept is similar to the ACELA EXPRESS trains.
Parlour Cars:
This concept would be a great idea for all Superliner Car Trains.
Sleepers:
Add Deluxe and Family Room only Sleepers.
Make some sleepers with 1 Accessible Deluxe Bedroom instead of a Family Room. Remove two of the lower level standard bedrooms and add them to the Transition Sleepers.
Transition Sleepers:
Add two lower level standard bedroom pairs (25-28) and add one accessible deluxe room (room 29).
Transition Coaches:
For routes which run reversed consists, rather than turning the dorm car around, a transition coach would be added to the consist. These are set up similar to the 399-series SF Dorms, but ould be entirely composed of coach seats upstairs, with 70 seats.
Slumber Coaches:
Amtrak should considder the rebirth of Slumber coaches in the Superliner style. Slumber Coaches would be 12 double/24 single section sleeper configurations.
Reconfigured Sleepers:
A new 10/6 configuration Superliner with the ten Bedrooms being single bedrooms being 1-10 and the deluxe rooms being A-E upstairs plus F downstairs in lieu of the Family room.
The current Standard Bedroom for wheelchair riders would replace current rooms 11 and 13 and the downstairs luggage rack area.
A deluxe wheelchair room would replace room H. Two lower level standard rooms would remain (rooms 12 and 14 would be renumbered 11 and 12). Room 13 would be the H Bedroom, and room G would be the Wheelchair deluxe Room.
Also, I think there should be new III's but they should be much different...There are too many similarities between the I and II.
------------------
--Anton L.
pillsbury09@excite.com
AIM: pillsburyMN
Deluxe and Family only?
Do you know how much a deluxe costs?
Viewliners should be expanded to replace Amfleet and Heritage equipment.
I would make some sixty-seat Viewliner II Coaches, add about 52 sleepers to the fleet, add glass-top viewliner lounges replacing the Amfleet II Club-Dinette Cars. Add diners to replace the heritage equipment.
Make some Family Room equipped Viewliners and add additional dorm cars for the crew.
Build a deluxe bedroom only sleepers.
Add diner/lounges for the lake-shore's Boston Section.
quote:
Originally posted by fubu05:
Coach Car types:Coaches would also include Business Class type cars with more room between seats.
Superliners already have enough legroom to sitck your feet straight out without hitting (or barely hitting) the seat in front of you. How much more legroom do you need?
Other than that, though, you have some neat ideas.
If Americans don't cease stuffing their faces, Amtrak is going to have a significant problem on its hands. It will be impossible to reconfigure the existing diners, coaches, and sleepers. To install new seats that are one-third wider (which is what health experts say millions of plus-size Americans now "require"), Amtrak would have to eliminate the aisle completely.
To accommodate "roomier" seats, the next generation of railroad cars will literally have to be wider by several feet.
Celery and a glass of water, anyone?
[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 08-24-2004).]
------------------
--Anton L.
pillsbury09@excite.com
AIM: pillsburyMN
quote:
Originally posted by mikesmith:
Add a small window to the top of the standard sleeper compartments for the upper bunk occupant. ... Superliner III coaches ... why couldn’t some be coach-exercise cars?
Great ideas Smitty. Many days when I see the EB Texas Eagle in Dallas Union Station I've thought of the overhead sleeper window addition. The carbody is standard, so it would have a bit of the look of the Sightseer Lounge window config.
And just yesterday I was talking to a guy about the addition of exercise equipment. That would work on LD and medium hauls.
------------------
_________Thë Çhîeƒ
_|_|_|_|_
Circa 1955, a heavyweight boxing champ named Floyd Patterson, who lived in the New York area, had a fight in Seattle. The Great Northern outfitted a Baggage Car so that he would have an en-route training gym aboard the Empire builder.
Oops, but I just remembered. In this litigation-happy society they would probably be afraid we'd hurt ourselves.
[This message has been edited by TwinStarRocket (edited 08-29-2004).]
------------------
--Anton L.
pillsbury09@excite.com
AIM: pillsburyMN
------------------
JONATHON D. ORTIZ