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NARP sent the following notice today. Remember those questions we listed that we'd like to ask Mineta? ( http://www.railforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/11/2924.html )Is there anyone among us in the Sacramento area that could get them to local news media before Thursday???? This is a golden opportunity to head him off at the pass. Let's take advantage of it.
To NARP Members in California, March 29, 2005--
We have been informed that Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta's "Amtrak bankruptcy road show" will be in Sacramento on Thursday. A specific time and location have not been announced. However, if this event follows past events it will be between 10:00 AM and 11:00 AM at the Amtrak station. More details to follow as they become available.
--David Johnson Assistant Director National Association of Railroad Passengers
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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I would like to ask Mr Mineta what he the Amtrak seats are used for. Vacationers? business travelers? students? If I were Mr Mineta I would ask the NAPR members the same question. Then we can see if both parties are on the same track it might shed some light for both parties.
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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Between 1900 and the 1920's the railroads built huge monuments to themeselves these were so great they were a part of civic pride. Many of these buildings were such pieces of art they stand today even though they are not being used, Buffalo, Detroit others have been refitted for other public use museums apartments restraunts Cinncinnatti. Pittsburgh, Richmond. In other cities there stations have been renovated and cleaned and are still being used as transportation hubs, Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Los Angelas Chicago. What keeps these stations thriving, and actually make them feel crowded are the commuter lines.
The biggest business mistake the Penn and the NYCentral made in building and placing the stations in Detroit and Buffalo was placing them outside of the city and disregarding commuters needs. The designing of the Origional Penn Station in New York was all geared for the long distance travel the space for the Long Island and New Jersey commuters where very utilitarian. The "New Penn Station" today is much to small because of the abundence of commuters from the Long Island and PATH railroads. What is the future of Long Distance travel? In areas where the train travels thru once a day often in the dead of the night who are the riders and what dent does it make on the highways and airlines? Again I believe Amtrak needs to divide its systems between heavy traffic areas and the LD's.
notelvis Member # 3071
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quote:Originally posted by Tanner929: I would like to ask Mr Mineta what he the Amtrak seats are used for. Vacationers? business travelers? students? If I were Mr Mineta I would ask the NAPR members the same question. Then we can see if both parties are on the same track it might shed some light for both parties.
Both parties are not on the same track.
The Bush administration wants to end all long-distance passenger train service in the United States. This is idealogical flotsam inherited from the Reagan administration.
Mineta, a foot-soldier in the cause, is willing to jet-set around the country and say whatever he must, no matter how misleading and downright untruthful, to accomplish this goal.
I've changed my one question for Secretary Mineta. I'd now like to ask;
"Mr. Mineta, are you as ignorant as you appear about rail passenger operations in the United States or are you fully aware of how untruthful your statements are?"
Personally, I believe that Mineta knows he is lying but is totally willing to do so to achieve the directives of the Bush administration. Had this administration really been interested in doing something positive for rail passenger service, it would have appointed Tommy Thompson who is far more rail knowledgeable, as DOT secretary when they first came to power.
To our NARP Colleagues in California........Happy Protesting. I hope one of you will carry a sign with the same message mine had when Mineta came to Charlotte. It said: "Invest Federal $$$$$$$$ on trains, NOT misleading media events!......Fully Fund Amtrak"
That message gave me the opportunity to discuss the upcoming press conference with a local television reporter. Afterwards she was absolutely amazed that three or four of the misleading things I mentioned that Mineta would say had, in fact, been part of the speech.
She particularly homed in on the statement about 'buying everyone a plane ticket would be cheaper than funding Amtrak' (we first heard that from David Stockman in 1981, remember? His failure to eliminate Amtrak then, in part, cost him his job in the Reagan administration.) But I digress........
David Pressley
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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(we first heard that from David Stockman in 1981, remember? His failure to eliminate Amtrak then, in part, cost him his job in the Reagan administration.)
Well like most federal programs its can't kill it can't run it well.
I believe Stockman lost his job for explaining the deal of trickle down economics. Honesty will kill em every time.
TheBriz09 Member # 3166
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quote:Originally posted by notelvis: That message gave me the opportunity to discuss the upcoming press conference with a local television reporter. Afterwards she was absolutely amazed that three or four of the misleading things I mentioned that Mineta would say had, in fact, been part of the speech.
You know, it would be kind of fun to print off some of those NARP fact check sheets and hand them out to attendees before the press conference starts (or maybe they already work on doing that, what do I know?) If not for everyone, then at least for the reporters present. Then people might get a similar effect that Mr. Pressley described above - they could see what's coming and defray the misinformation before it has any time to sink in.
notelvis Member # 3071
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quote:Originally posted by Tanner929: (we first heard that from David Stockman in 1981, remember?
I believe Stockman lost his job for explaining the deal of trickle down economics. Honesty will kill em every time.
Ya know Mr. Tanner, I agree with you absolutely on this one!
I imagine that a little honesty from Norm Mineta regarding Amtrak at this point would mean the end of his tenure as well. Funny, but I always thought it was supposed to work the other way.
Going back to one of your original questions; I think the seats on Amtrak's long-distance trains are filled by a remarkable mix of vacationers, families, nostalgia buffs, some absolute railfans and folks who really have no better option for getting where they are going.
I shared a dinner table on the California Zephyr last summer with a lady who could not fly due to inner ear trouble and couple returning for the wife's 55th college reunion in Denver. She told of growing up in southwestern Colorado and actually going to and from college riding the narrow guage passenger train to Denver out of Durango! This couple had a soft spot for traveling by train but were not died in the wool rail fanatics.
It's interesting that in Detroit Mineta lashed out against the 'Empire Builder' in particular. That train is probably the best argument FOR long-distance passenger trains out there. Many of the cities served (particularly in North Dakota and Montana) are not located along an interstate highway and what little air service is available is generally very expensive and involves driving several hours each way to reach an airport. More importantly, Montanans and tourists use the train. Mineta says only 53 passengers a day use Amtrak through Montana but NARP cites figures indicating that about 10 times that many people board the Empire Builder in Montana each day.
So..........complete honesty equals a pink slip.
Go figure.
David Pressley
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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quote:Originally posted by TheBriz09: You know, it would be kind of fun to print off some of those NARP fact check sheets and hand them out to attendees before the press conference starts (or maybe they already work on doing that, what do I know?)
Looks like NARP is on it.
To NARP members in California, March 30, 2005 (message #2)--
We now have concrete details about Secretary Mineta's appearance tomorrow.
First of all, the Secretary will not ride a Capitol Corridor train and the event will not be at the Amtrak station.
The event will be at 11:00 a.m. at the State Capitol Building in Room #1190 (which is the Press Room). Tomorrow is a holiday for state employees, so the building will be emptier than usual.
NARP Board member Jim Salvador will be distributing the NARP news release and NARP "Fact Check" at the event.
--David Johnson Assistant Director National Association of Railroad Passengers
I won't take credit for this, as they could very well have considered it on their own, but I did write to NARP and suggest something along these lines. I am acquainted with Jim Salvador and I copied him on the e-mail.
George Harris Member # 2077
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The more people that can be there the better. Mobocracy still gets results.
Maybe he isn't as dumb as some of the things he says makes him sound. Picking on the Empire Builder is the worst choice of the anti-Amtrakers. This battle may be being fought with the intention of losing so that the anti-amtrak sources of political contributions can be told, "Well, we tried." I can think of a few alternatives that would give their arguements more credibility. Read Machivelli (sp?)
George
notelvis Member # 3071
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quote:Originally posted by George Harris:
Maybe he isn't as dumb as some of the things he says makes him sound. Picking on the Empire Builder is the worst choice of the anti-Amtrakers. This battle may be being fought with the intention of losing so that the anti-amtrak sources of political contributions can be told, "Well, we tried." I can think of a few alternatives that would give their arguements more credibility.
George
A valid point.
Sadly though there are powerful anti-Amtrak forces out there which are spreading a great deal of mis-information.
Case-in-point, the non-profit organization my wife works with recently caused her to be in contact with staff members of a California Congressman. The conversation turned to Amtrak while she was in Sacramento and these politicos spoke glowingly of their Capitol Corridor trains.
My wife asked about support for Amtrak elsewhere and one of the staffers remarked "What's the point in that? They run the Empire Builder empty."
My wife and I had been on a packed in both directions EB in 1998 (and I experienced similar conditions on a solo trip in 2003) and asked the staffer "Have you ever tried to buy a ticket on the Empire Builder? That train runs sold out most of the summer."
The congressional staffer answered with more anti-Amtrak rhetoric rather than answering the question about actually riding the train.
Perhaps Mineta is being fed bad information. A possibility I had not yet considered. Not excusable.......just a different possibility.
David Pressley
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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Just a thought,
It sounds like the popularity and the sold out trains would be a good investment eh? If these routes are profitible wouldn't millionaire hobbiest want to run a rail road. An astute buisness would not outprice the regular riders. I am not advocating an American Orient Express but I do think a return of the passionate railroader to the executive suites. We need some proggressive thinking here. any thoughts?
mikesmith Member # 447
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If someone was industrious, that someone could copy Amtrak's logo and font, and print up a bunch of "Amtrak" handouts for the press, explaining the facts about rail service. I'd bet lots of money the press would assume the handouts were official DoT handouts.
As you hand them to the press, just state "Here's the Amtrak press release" and walk away to the next journalist. You'll see your "facts" quoted on the nightly news.
George Harris Member # 2077
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quote: My wife asked about support for Amtrak elsewhere and one of the staffers remarked "What's the point in that? They run the Empire Builder empty."
My wife and I had been on a packed in both directions EB in 1998 (and I experienced similar conditions on a solo trip in 2003) and asked the staffer "Have you ever tried to buy a ticket on the Empire Builder? That train runs sold out most of the summer."
The congressional staffer answered with more anti-Amtrak rhetoric rather than answering the question about actually riding the train.[/QB]
Yes! The joys of dealing with a closed mind. When you get the sort of response that does not relate to the question, it a strong hint that you have entered a logic free zone. At which point leave quickly. Sometimes the stuff seems contagious.
George
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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DONT U SEE the problem with rail travel in general and how the general public sees it!
While many in this site are passionate or just enjoy rail travel will give numbers and tell what they have seen on trains as well as ideas to improve the service. Way to many taxpayers see Amtrak as a propped up industry kept as part of the countrys past rather then its present and future! Sorry for being blunt but this is a problem scince the death of the Penn Central.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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Tanner, I don't believe the public at large feels that Amtrak is a burden. Polls consistently show that significant majorities of the citizenry DO want a good rail system, and believe the government has an important role to play. The naysayers are a vocal, ideologically driven, minority.
I talk to people all the time who tell me they'd LOVE to travel by train, but they don't know what services are available, or it doesn't go where they want to go. I believe there is a significant latent demand out there, a silent (and uninformed) majority, just waiting to be tapped.
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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Mr. Toy,
I have spoken to people as well who have given me the "I love the train," BUT.....the reason go from not enough info, my schedule and the trains don't match. The amount of stuff we haul on vacations, the kids, the expense how do i get around once I arrive etc. I even find that a big problem with commuter lines are that to many commuters need to take their cars to the stations, which do not have parking capacity which also adds to the monthly cost.
mikesmith Member # 447
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So... Did anyone go to the Sacramento event?
What happened?
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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quote:Originally posted by Tanner929: ...BUT.....the reason go from not enough info, my schedule and the trains don't match....
That is a genuine problem with a skeletal system, precisely what I was talking about. People can't ride trains that aren't there when they need them. People do ride trains that meet their needs, however. I include myself in that. I don't ride trains that don't meet my travel needs. It just happens that sometimes they do. The fun is a bonus, not my reason for using them.
quote: The amount of stuff we haul on vacations, the kids, the expense how do i get around once I arrive etc.
Of course, air travelers face the same limitations, even greater baggage restrictions than Amtrak, but that doesn't stop people from flying. It sounds like the people you talk to prefer to drive.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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quote:Originally posted by mikesmith: So... Did anyone go to the Sacramento event?
What happened?
Here's a report from RailPAC:
Mineta Amtrak Press Conference in Sacramento California
By Russ Jackson, RailPAC, who was the only rail advocate allowed into the press conference. A followup news conference was held outside the press room, and that is included below. The scene was quite professional in all aspects.
USDOT Secretary Norman Mineta spoke to the press Thursday morning in the press room of the State Capitol. In his prepared statement he reiterated the positions he has been taking regarding Amtrak, that "the Administration's reform plan could lead to noticeable improvements in inter-city passenger service." He will again submit to the Congress the 2003 "Passenger Rail Investment Reform Act." Its provisions call for "healthy competition" for better rail service. As part of this concept he praised California's "ambitious passenger rail plans," saying he is proud of his home state for its progress in rail transportation planning.
Amtrak's primary mission, he said, is to run trains, not be in the real estate business or other non-passenger related businesses such as track repair and a reservation system, none of which apply to airlines in their businesses. He called for his plan to be adopted which would allow Amtrak to focus on its passenger delivery business with the states sharing the capital costs 50-50. He specifically mentioned Chicago Union Station ownership as not necessary, in that Metra which operates most of the trains out of there does not have local control and is held hostage to Amtrak. "Having come from local government, I feel states and localities know how to handle this better with no dictation from Washington."
He briefly mentioned the high speed rail development program in California, but when asked whether his 50-50% federal-state share proposal would mean the Feds would pick up 50% of the multi-billion dollar CAHSRA program, he backed off and said he would have to look into that, but if it qualified as an "intercity" rail program it might. Because his plan lets states choose who runs the trains it gives incentives to Amtrak to compete for these contracts it could lead to greater efficiencies, and in the end lower the need for Amtrak subsidies.
He said the plan calls for upgrading the Northeast Corridor, and when that is done using Federal dollars, then the operating contract would be turned over to the affected states. He said, "If I were outside the NEC I'd see dollars going to it instead of my state," and would not be happy about it. President Bush and he are in accord "as supporting intercity rail." We "will take back the assets of the NEC, and make the repairs." When asked how much that would cost, he estimated $1.2 to 1.8 billion.
He concluded with the comment he has used everywhere in supporting the Administration plan, that he doesn't want to kill Amtrak. Mr. Mineta emphasized that if he wanted Amtrak to die he would do nothing and it would do so of its own accord, where the Administration's plan is "key to revitalizing" passenger rail travel.
At the end of Secretary Mineta's meeting the press was invited to step into the hall for another press conference by California Assemblyman Dave Jones (D-Sacramento) who on this same day introduced a joint resolution calling on Congress to preserve and improve Amtrak. Assemblyman Jones said, "De-funding Amtrak is directly at odds with our interests here in Sacramento. As a growing region with congested freeways we need more Federal support for rail transit so we can encourage more travelers to get out of their cars and onto public transport like Amtrak and Regional Transit." The introduced measure would "memorialize the Congress to provide adequate operating and capital funding for Amtrak at specified levels." This resolution has the support of many groups around the state, including the Capitol Corridor JPB, the San Joaquin Valley Rail Committee, the Coast Rail Coordinating Committee and the LOSSAN Corridor Committee. It is co-sponsored by Assemblyman Leslie (R-Tahoe City), with bi-partisan support by several other legislators including Senators Maldonado (R-Santa Maria), Kehoe (D-San Diego) and Ducheny (D-San Diego).
Capitol Corridor Managing Director Eugene Skoropowski was interviewed in the hallway news conference also, making the points he has stressed that "without Amtrak would we be able to operate the Capitol Corridor and other state trains? Yes and No;" the state would "need a new operator." He said that the freight railroads would be very reluctant to ok anyone other than Amtrak, as a "new operator could present probems in the insurance liability area, for one." With Amtrak, that organization holds the insurance policy but a new operator would have to negotiate a new agreement, the state's policy premium could be around $8 million a year, and no insurance company has indicated it would be interested. Mr. Skoropowski was asked about the future of Amtrak funding, repeating his comments he has said elsewhere, "The administration does seem to recognize that they must have a federal-state partnership with the states for intercity passenger rail capital investment, albeit on a 50-50 basis rather than the 80-20% for roads. There seems to be no new funding for this program, however, and the implication is that federal funds used to support the current national network of passenger rail run by Amtrak would be taken away from that function and the money made available to states on a matching basis." Mr. Skropowski then told the press, "Since the entire "long distance passenger rail system costs about $300 million in subsidy, there is not much of a 'savings' likely to come cutting off all those services." The $2 billion of ticket sales yearly makes up the balance of the budget. Of the remaining $900 million of the total $1.2 billion Amtrak federal allocation, about half of that amount is for capital infrastructure maintenance/renewals along the Northeast Corridor.
This writer's comments: Nothing really new came out of this day's news conference. We've got a long way to go this summer before the Amtrak funding situation is resolved, and in my opinion the status quo will probably exist for another year. But, the fundamental problem of Amtrak's longevity is not easily solvable either with throwing money at it or just the reforms proposed however desirable some are. It boils down to this: does the American public want rail travel enough to stand up and say so and then buy tickets? They are doing that in many ways, and we must be vigilant and helpful. Some say the long distance (national system) trains are in jeopardy, but most rightly believe that Amtrak cannot thrive without them. I personally do not believe the states need to pay for those trains, only for stations and ameneties along the way. It was another day in the continuing saga of Amtrak. NOTE: This report, with photos from the event, will be on www.railpac.org in April.
This information is being provided to you as a service by the Rail Passenger Association of California (RailPAC), California's largest and oldest rail advocacy membership organization.
If you would like information about RailPAC, simple send us your postal mailing address by return e-mail.
Richard L. Silver, Executive Director Rail Passenger Association of California www.RailPAC.org 888-508-2640
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