VIA appears to be alive, well and prospering. What are the folks to the north doing so much better than we are? Rodger
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Isn't VIARAIL heavily subsidized by the Canadian government, who own it?
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
quote:Originally posted by CHANGEATJAMAICA: VIA appears to be alive, well and prospering. What are the folks to the north doing so much better than we are? Rodger
I think the Canadians are beyond the point of arguing about whether or not the federal government should subsidize passenger trains. It's more an issue of how many and how frequently they should run rather than whether or not VIA should even exist.
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
Don't kid yourself---VIA RAIL is a sad imitation of it's past glory and great extensive service--more so than the service which Amtrak now provides. Many, many routes have been killed in the last 10 years, many lines have very much less frequent service and many trains have been replaced by one and 2 car RDC trains over those routes instead of full-service coaches and diner-lounge cars. Many routes in northern Ontario and northern Quebec no longer exist and many stations have bit the dust. Many commuter routes north and east of Toronto that are not part of the GO train service were killed like Toronto to Myrtle (near Port Perry) and the routes from Toronto to Iroquois Falls which are now mostly bus service. Much of the extensive food service has been curtailed and the route from Toronto to Niagara Falls which used to have 5 trains a day is down to 2 a day (one of which is the Maple Leaf.) Many Canadians are more than angry about the current lack of service and lack of a variety of routes to the same destination. Service to Banff National Park no longer exists, etc.
Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
Look at this:
VIA Rail Canada runs more than 460 trains per week over a 14,000-kilometre network linking more than 450 localities in Canada. Four million passengers per year travel on VIA trains!
How does that compare to Amtraks numbers?
Posted by David (Member # 3) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pojon: Don't kid yourself---VIA RAIL is a sad imitation of it's past glory and great extensive service--more so than the service which Amtrak now provides. Many, many routes have been killed in the last 10 years, many lines have very much less frequent service and many trains have been replaced by one and 2 car RDC trains over those routes instead of full-service coaches and diner-lounge cars. Many routes in northern Ontario and northern Quebec no longer exist and many stations have bit the dust. Many commuter routes north and east of Toronto that are not part of the GO train service were killed like Toronto to Myrtle (near Port Perry) and the routes from Toronto to Iroquois Falls which are now mostly bus service. Much of the extensive food service has been curtailed and the route from Toronto to Niagara Falls which used to have 5 trains a day is down to 2 a day (one of which is the Maple Leaf.) Many Canadians are more than angry about the current lack of service and lack of a variety of routes to the same destination. Service to Banff National Park no longer exists, etc.
The big cut-backs to VIA services occurred on 15th Jan. 1990 - most notably was the CPR route of the "Canadian." Over the last 15 years some of the trains (but not routes) which were cut have been restored. For example, there are now five weekday round trips between Toronto and Ottawa, up from three after the cut-backs. Even the overnight Toronto-Montreal train has been restored, although there have been rumours that it may be the first train to be discontinued if there is a budget crunch.
I don't know where Pojon gets the idea that one and two-car RDC trains have replaced full service coaches and diner-lounge cars. Since 1990 there are only two routes operated with RDCs throughout the dominion: Sudbury - White River in Ontario and Victoria to Courtney in British Columbia. On the Toronto - Niagara Falls run there are indeed only two daily round trips, but that is down from three - not five.
In the corridor (Quebec-Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto-London-Windsor) almost all trains offer "VIA 1" first class service which includes a choice of three meals, pre-lunch or dinner drinks, wine and after-dinner liqueurs. The "Canadian" runs on the CNR route (only tri-weekly unfortunately)but offers excellent food and service.
The point of this is that it would be nice if there was more service, but it isn't all bad news.
Posted by Tanner929 (Member # 3720) on :
Wondering. Is VIA a system that controls all intercity rail in Canada. Would it be like if Amtrak was running all Metropolitian Rail Service such as those in Major Cities in America?
Posted by CN 6060 Fan (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tanner929: Wondering. Is VIA a system that controls all intercity rail in Canada. Would it be like if Amtrak was running all Metropolitian Rail Service such as those in Major Cities in America?
VIA runs most intercity passenger services in Canada but does not operate the commuter trains in “Metropolitan” areas. This is provided by: GO Transit in Toronto, AMT in Montreal and West Coast Express in Vancouver.
Several “freight” railroads also provide passenger service: Ontario Northland, Algoma Central (owned by CN) and the Quebec Northshore & Labrador.
The White Pass & Yukon Route operates from Alaska into Yukon Territory. This is mostly a tourist operation but it does provide a scheduled service.
Posted by RRRICH (Member # 1418) on :
In other words, Via Rail Canada is Canada's equivalent of AMTRAK, even though their organization may be slightly different, but VIA also relies on government subsidies to operate.
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
I prefer VIA Rail's roomette(Canadian)for one passenger to the Superliner roomettes which accommodates up to 2 passengers. The double bedroom, however, on the Superliner is more accomodating (Shower and full sofa). Also the meal service on VIA Rail is better. Overall, VIA's onboard service is better. The downside for Via's Canadian is the route change (1990?)to the CNR. It is very scenic,but not as exciting as Kicking Horse Pass and the spiral tunnels which are utilized by the Rocky Mountaineer. I confess that I am partial to the heritage style fleets. Especially when Domeliners are used.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
VIA Rail operations are confined to intercity. There are rail commuter agencies providing service within the Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver metropolitan areas.
While VIA's on-board service is reported to be superior, mostly because it is far more consistient, to Amtrak's, let's be honest folks, the nature and scope of its operations don't even "hold a candle' to those of Amtrak. Lest we note, Daily service West of Windsor is simply "not", and one transcontinental route with tri weekly service, does not compare with three routes and Daily service as well as tri-weekly over a fourth.
But then who am I to say; I haven't been near VIA since 1980 - not a boycott, just no reason.
Had VIA been able to "build" upon the mid 60's CN passenger service initiative and, say, operate re-equipped LD trains over both the CN and CP on a Daily frequency, then I would 'sign on' and say they got something up there we haven't got. Failing that, operating one train tri weekly over the secondary route that misses what "major" population centers there are up there and with 50+ year old hand me down equipment, they appear to have much less than do we.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
I think Mr. Norman you should really try Via again. The current tri-weekly frequency is, I admit, very poor. However Via has no choice but to obey Canadian government directives on routing and funding. The government ordered Via to run The Canadian on the CN (northern) route, however this line does serve major population centres, e.g. Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Vancouver. As for hand-me-down 50+ year old equipment, I suggest that by any objective standard the re-built Budd-built cars are far superior and more reliable than the more recently built Superliner and Viewliner equipment. Very rarely have I experienced, power failures, toilet failures, heating and AC malfunctions etc on The Canadian. I have experienced all of the above on Amtrak on several occasions. Via's On-board service is of a much higher quality as I think almost everyone will agree. As well, one has to consider that the population of Canada is about one tenth that of the U.S. and therefore Canada needs fewer long distrance trains.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Once again Mr. Royal please note there is not any kind of a boycott on my part with regard to VIA. I simply have no reason to travel to Canada for any purpose.
I grant that the CN is 'the Corridor' Montreal-Toronto, The Canadian still traverses the shore of Lake Superior on the CP, Winnipeg and Vancouver are served, and Edmonton is a worthy 'second city' for Alberta.
But SaskatOOn??? Is it on the list for a "Where the he** is...T-Shirt? Or maybe a 'where in the world is Matt Laurer".
But guess what; SURPRISE; I have been in Saskatoon. During May 1965, I rode the GN Winnipeg Limited to connect with the CN Panorama. Darned if the GN wasn't late and there was a misconnect. Well, after a quick lesson that there actually WAS such a place, and there was an afternoon Air Canada flight that could be used for a "catch up" (they wired ahead so my space would not be sold en route), all was well. "Flightseeing" aboard a Vickers Viscount was fun, but as near as I can tell from taking a taxicab directly from the airport to the train station which is as far out of town as the airport, the place was just an airport and a train station out on the prairie!!!!.
Posted by 20th Century (Member # 2196) on :
Hmmmmm....the Vickers Viscount, those large oval shaped windows must have made for some impressive aerial views. Yes, Mr. Norman, Amtrak does have more frequency of service. But those Budd built cars are more reliable (perhaps it is VIA maintenance that is reliable)and the on board service is noteworthy. I guess The Canadian is tri-weekly due to budgetary restrictions / rolling stock. Therefore, they would prefer to maintain better service.
Posted by North American Railroader (Member # 3398) on :
Two things: as for the number of transcontinental routes, no insult intended, but Canada simply does not have the population to support more than two. Of course a second train on the CP line would be great, but for the flow of traffic (let's remember that this is a business), one line suits the needs. Of course I think that a tri-weekly schedule is meager. In regards to Saskatoon, it has a population of 196,811; roughly the size of my hometown, Tallahassee; I don't see anyone asking where Tallahassee is. In addition, when comparing the two populations of the United States and Canada (placing them into a standard ratio equation), Saskatoon, when compared to American cities, would be the size of Phoenix, AZ (with a population of 1,891,257). Ask any Canadian where Saskatoon is, they'll give you an answer. These are the facts and I encourage you examine them yourself, just be sure to have a calculator handy. As for VIA or Amtrak, I say VIA, and I can sum it up in three words: service, comfort, scenery.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
I am always interested to learn more about VIA, because if, God forbid, the certain Amtrak LD's are discontinued, guess what country my tourist dollars are going to. Living in Minnesota, it is not to long a drive to Ontario.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
Just one slight correction Mr. Norman. The Canadian no longer traverses the north shore of Lake Superior on CP. The entire route from Toronto to Vancouver is on CN, and except for a few miles in the Vancouver area, The Canadian does not pass over any CP trackage.
Posted by CN 6060 Fan (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by royaltrain: Just one slight correction Mr. Norman. The Canadian no longer traverses the north shore of Lake Superior on CP. The entire route from Toronto to Vancouver is on CN, and except for a few miles in the Vancouver area, The Canadian does not pass over any CP trackage.
VIA’s Canadian is on a bit more CP track now since directional running was implemented in BC. The eastbound train is on CP for about 275 miles between Mission BC and near Ashcroft. The westbound stays on CN. Different stations are used at Hope, North Bend, Chilliwack etc.
Last fall CN & CP announced additional directional running to be implemented in Ontario: All westbound trains will be on CP from near Parry Sound to south of Sudbury (about 100 miles) And all eastbound trains on CN. VIA’s Canadian was not mentioned specifically but will probably “go with the flow”.
The Canadian is also on Burlington Northern - Santa Fe from New Westminster to Vancouver (trackage within Pacific Central Station is CN)
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Ouch, Mr. Royal--
That is simply insult to injury with no more service along Lake Superior. Well, at least now I have had occasion to visit the VIA website, with a 1956 CN timetable in hand to confirm.
Of interest, and I will surely stand corrected if need be, it would appear that the CP is now out of the VIA passenger business. It would appear they pulled off what the UP has failed to do "down here".
I'm mindful that the CP does host two separate private sector "luxotrains' offering passages over the Rockies that cater to the $1000 a day crowd. One I believe they operate themselves. Oh well to compare with the "state owned" service (which I should reiterate I am mindful has both an excellent on board service product and a high maintenance of equipment level) it is no different than a resort where the difference in rates between a "City View" (sometimes translates to dumpster view) and an "Ocean View' room can be quite substantial.
I am quite aware that the passage over the Canadian Rockies is likely the most impressive scenery in North America, even though I believe either the "Zephyr's' passage over the US Rockies or the CHP ascent to the Baranca del Cobre are close seconds. At least UP hasn't decided to kick Amtrak off the DRGW and contract with a private operator to run a "luxotrain" (after all, model railroad equipment makers have learned there is a price tag on their logo) also @ $1000 a day. As for the CHP, I believe that is the only regularly scheduled passenger train left in Mexico, save maybe a "Segunda' somewhere on a "Mixto" that not even is known about at headquarteres.
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
Some of the nicest trips I've had on clean, neat and fast trains with exceptionally attentive and friendly crew were on VIA trains in the east to Ottawa from Montreal, from Toronto to Montreal, Montreal to Quebec City, Toronto to Niagara Falls (NOT on the Maple Leaf), from Northern Ontario to Moosonee and from Montreal to northern Quebec. Mostly very nice experiences. I was smart enough to use the special one and two day excursion fares and thereby saved a lot of money making it an even greater pleasure! Not bad, Canada!
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
I also loved those "food and drink trolleys" that an attendant would wheel through the train (thereby delivering your food to your seat). I had many a bowl of hot and nice beef or chicken soup with crackers on a very cold morning on VIA runs to Ottawa from Montreal and Toronto. Those were the days and the food was inexpensive!
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
In my journeys of all the Canada Trains here is what impressed me about Via.
1. Clean windows The windows on Via are clean The Canadian gets its windows washed three times during its trip across to Vancouver. The Southwest Chief once in ABQ. See a differnce here. 2. Most of the VIA employees go out of their way to make passengers happy. They all have a high level of pride in what they do. Some Amtrak employees show no pride in their company and their job is for a pay check and dam the passengers. That is not to say that there aren't any good Amtrak employees because there are many who do an excellent job and show great pride in their job.
3. Via does an excellent job of explaining delays far better than Amtrak does.
These three things are what I noticed. You can read my Canadian trip at:
CHRISG you are 100% correct-----I agree with you on your 3 points! I used VIA frequently when I lived in Toronto, Niagara Falls and Port Perry, Ontario for years and the many times I had to go to Montreal and Quebec City. Nothing seems to beat the politeness and friendliness I saw from employees on VIA and the swift and quiet ways they did their jobs. There is a special dignity which still survives in Canada which Americans could learn a lot from. By the way the wages in Canada on Amtrak were LOWER than for comparable jobs on Amtrak (even taking into account the exchange rate difference.) Maybe Canadians feel honored being put in a position to serve the general public and feel a responsibility. I met many great employees on Amtrak but also many surly and rude ones, both male and female. Never met surly employees on VIA. Go explain!
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
In speaking with onboard staff of the Canadian, they have said that VIA officials would love to offer a train from Calgary to Vancouver. One attedant boasted how busy the train used to be between Winnipeg and Vancouver, before discontinuance, on the CP routing - mostly due to summer and winter tourist traffic no doubt. VIA's Canadian now traverses a route that serves remote areas that is less accessible - thus making it more of a public service/need.
However, the Rocky Mountaineer has such a stronghold - politically etc. - on the CP route, that it is doubtful VIA will ever return to the CP route (i.e. Calgary to Vancouver). VIA also has talked about operating the Canadian daily in peak season, and bid to operate passenger service on the old BC route from Vancouver to Prince George. None of this has come to be, except:
- Rocky Mountaineer has benefitted from operating on the CP route - Rocky Mountaineer has been awarded operator of the old BC route from Vancouver to Prince George so they can add a circle tour via Jasper - Rocky Mountaineer invading what used to be VIA's turf, but for tourist means, not for public service for Canadians. Rocky Mountaineer doesn't make stops at former passenger stations along the CP route, nor will they on the former BC route.
I am scheduled on the Skeena (Prince Rupert - Prince George - Jasper) in July, fearing that this may get the axe once Rocky Mountaineer starts up its Vancouver to Jasper train via Prince George in 2006.
VIA has bestowed tender loving care to their Budd stainless steel cars (inherited from the CP). Yes, they are 50+ years old, but VIA doesn't have any plans of retiring them - just the opposite. They are exploring plans for yet another renovation to the Budd sleepers - particularly coverting the "open berths" to rooms. And some of these stainless steel wonders are getting (or have gotten) toilet retention tanks - something Amtrak deemed too expensive to retrofit their Heritage equipment with. Seems as if Amtrak would have been better off sending their Heritage equipment for VIA to fix up rather than to the scrap or for sale pile. But what's gone is gone!
Posted by CNJ_1526 (Member # 3931) on :
Personally, I would like to experience the service between Montreal and Toronto, in order to get a perspective of how this sort of higer speed service could work between some of the major cities here in the States.
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
VIA is killing the overnight Enterprise and some other long distance trains---shame on them!
Posted by CN 6060 Fan (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pojon: VIA is killing the overnight Enterprise and some other long distance trains---shame on them!
The Enterprise has run for about 4 ˝ years and VIA certainly can’t be knocked for not having tried. The train was advertised and fare deals offered but the passengers just never materialized. One thing that might have saved it was rerouting through Ottawa but this was denied by CN unless improvements were made to the junction with the Ottawa line at Coteau (not VIA's fault)
I don’t know what long distance trains you are referring to as being discontinued. Since the announcement of the Enterprise discontinuance, VIA has added a train between Toronto and Niagara Falls and will also introduce a new late evening train between Toronto and Kingston.
The only other train not operating is the once weekly Bras d’Or between Halifax and Sydney. This was a tourist train and didn’t provide any service to local passengers. This was necessitated by the announcement by the CB&CNS Rwy that the track between Port Hawkesbury and Sydney may be abandoned (again not VIA’s fault).
Posted by jp1822 (Member # 2596) on :
I too do not know of any other VIA long distance service abandonments. The chopping block got quite an exercise in the early 1990s, so there's not too much left of what once was.
However, I fear the Skeena and Hudson Bay line is always up for possibility of discontinuance. More so with the Skeena now, due to the fact that Rocky Moutaineer will be invading the trackage of the Skeena (Prince George to Jasper). Rocky Mountaineer invades the trackage of the Canadian between Vancouver and Jasper, but the Skeena is not as well travelled as the Canadian. The Skeena does travel through remote back country where it is often the only source of transportation in certain areas. And the Skeena was one of the best trains I have ever been on. Rode it a couple of years ago for the first time on one of the first runs of the new "Panorama" car. It was a magnificient ride! I will be on it again in July - can't wait!
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
Likely the Winnipeg-Churchill and the Montreal-Senneterre services will be the last to go.
I can recall an August 1956 trip to Kapitachuan Club PQ for a canoe trip behind steam and in a heavyweight Sleeper ("I don't CARE whether or not you WANT to go, you need some TOUGHENING UP").
There is simply NO alternative surface transportation. I believe there are other CN lines about which same can be said.
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
The Winnepeg to Churchill route is something special! To see it go would be a crime!
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
How about the Ontario Northland Railway route to Moosonee in northern Ontario is it still running in the summer motns? I took it many times in the 60's and 70's. Does it run (if it is running) from Toronto or from Cochrane?
Posted by CN 6060 Fan (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pojon: How about the Ontario Northland Railway route to Moosonee in northern Ontario is it still running in the summer motns? I took it many times in the 60's and 70's. Does it run (if it is running) from Toronto or from Cochrane?
Still runs and still popular.
The Toronto to Cochrane service was recently expanded with more convenient times. See:
I know the Ontario Northlander has a couple of routes, but one in particularly operates into Montreal - but it's still an all coach train from Montreal to northern Ontario and it leaves some time in the late evening hour right? Is this correct? I thought they got some $$ and were going to overhaul the route or schedule. May have been some misinformation I received - or my confusion. Would be nice if it had a sleeper....(the train originating in Montreal).
Would love to head up that way some time, but last time I looked into it, the way I would go had me making a connection with the Canadian at some point in the Thunder Bay area and then continuing on North.
Posted by CN 6060 Fan (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by jp1822: I know the Ontario Northlander has a couple of routes, but one in particularly operates into Montreal - but it's still an all coach train from Montreal to northern Ontario and it leaves some time in the late evening hour right?.......Would be nice if it had a sleeper....(the train originating in Montreal).
...........the way I would go had me making a connection with the Canadian at some point in the Thunder Bay area and then continuing on North.
You would connect in Toronto. The Canadian has not served Thunder Bay since 1990.
Ontario Northland’s “Northlander” operates from Toronto Union Station to North Bay on CN then the ONR from North Bay to Cochrane. This is a daylight run in both directions. Train uses ONR power and re-built single level xGO Transit cars. It is not a VIA train.
Ontario Northland does not operate out of Montreal. You might be thinking of VIA’s train from Montreal to Senneterre in northwestern Quebec. At one time this train continued beyond Senneterre to Cochrane where it connected with the Ontario Northland and carried sleeping cars. It is also a daytime run now.
Posted by chrisg (Member # 2488) on :
The Via train out of Montreal into the north go to Senneterra and Jonquiere. They run as one train to Hervey Junction then split to go to their destinations. They are all daylight trips out in the morning and into their destination of an late afternoon or evening. They are tri weekly trains.
Chris
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Anybody know a website with pertinant up-to-date VIA news......ie: Service changes, trip reports, consist information, places to stay, etc? Trainweb is helpful but the body of VIA info pales compared to Amtrak info.
The VIA website itself is hard to navigate and rarely has enough 'news' to satisfy the real passenger rail enthusiast.
Posted by CN 6060 Fan (Member # 3093) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: Anybody know a website with pertinant up-to-date VIA news......ie: Service changes, trip reports, consist information, places to stay, etc? Trainweb is helpful but the body of VIA info pales compared to Amtrak info.
Ask any question about passenger trains in Canada, I'm sure some one will reply.
Posted by Pojon (Member # 3080) on :
VIA Rail Canada had a weekly newsletter last year that went out to all those interested. Call them and ask them about it. Ask Amtrak (800) USA-RAIL for VIA's number.
Posted by B.T.Rider (Member # 3975) on :
VIA Rail Canada runs more than 460 trains per week over a 14,000-kilometre network linking more than 450 localities in Canada. Four million passengers per year travel on VIA trains! How does that compare to Amtrak's numbers?
Amtrak operates over 25,000 miles of numerous private railroads, and serves over 525 cities, town, and communities. Last year it carred over 21 million passenger. Here in California, the number 1, 3, and 5 routes in the nation (outside the NE corridor) are the Pacific Surfliner (2+ million pax per year), the Capitol Corriodor (900,00 pax per year) and the San Joaquin (750,000 pax per year.
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VIA Rail Canada had a weekly newsletter last year that went out to all those interested. Call them and ask them about it. Ask Amtrak (800) USA-RAIL for VIA's number.