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RailPAC reports in my e-mail today that Congress has appropriated $45 million to study a maglev train from LA to Las Vegas. It would cost billions to build. The first phase, which would be only 40 miles, would cost $1.2 billion. Supposedly they want to start building that within three years!
I know this is just politics. But the hypocrisy is evident. Congress balks at spending money on "tourist trains" (long distance routes) that actually exist, then turns around and gives money to a tourist train that doesn't exist, and which would cost as much as Amtrak's entire national system just to get the first 40 miles going.
Here's the story from RailPAC:
Maglev train awarded $45 million By MIGUEL GONZALEZ
Staff Writer
VICTORVILLE — After nearly two decades and more than $50 million, the California-Nevada Super Speed Train Commission is receiving another $45 million courtesy of Congress.
Commission Chairman Bruce Aguilera said the new money will go toward more environmental studies, engineering — and projects to raise more money. Construction, he said, could begin in less than three years. A meeting is planned Jan. 25 to determine how to spend the money.
Since 1988, the commission has envisioned building an electromagnetic high-speed train that will travel around 300 mph, whisking travelers from Anaheim to Las Vegas in 86 minutes.
If completed, the project would also include stops in Primm, Nev.; Barstow, Victorville, and Ontario.
Dr. Steven Frates, a senior fellow at the Rose Institute of State and Local Government at Claremont McKenna College, said that aside from the novelty factor, it is dubious that there is an economic value for a high-speed train between California and Nevada.
"The obvious factor here is that this project will cost billions and billions of dollars," Frates said. "That money could be better used for building more roads that will benefit more people, especially those of lower incomes."
Frates said that the only people who are benefiting from this project are the engineering and environmental studies companies.
"You have a high-speed train competing with high-speed planes that already travel to Las Vegas on a daily basis. There might be a market for it, but it's rather unlikely."
Victorville Mayor Mike Rothschild, a commission member, said that maglev systems will help to eventually replace most cars and trucks.
"If you can travel at 300 mph many people are going to choose this mode of transportation," he said. "The hard part is to spend money now for something that will not be functional until some years down the road."
According to Neil Cummings, president of the American Magline Group, the commission's private partner, the program has received around $52.5 million in funding. Most of that money has been used to pay for environmental studies, engineering, and land acquisition.
Aguilera said the commission might be interested in generating more funds for the project by selling bonds or stock.
"I think the federal government is going to wait and see what we are going to do with the $45 million before we get more money from them," he said. "The plan is to start construction on phase one of the 269-mile project in less than three years."
The first phase would link Las Vegas and Primm, about a 40-mile stretch at a cost of about $1.2 billion.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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Maglev will replace most cars and trucks? I say give Amtrak all the maglev money, build a 180mph conventional bullet train using proven technology, and let Amtrak keep the change. It would take less than an hour longer in travel time.
George Harris Member # 2077
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Oink Oink If this isn't special interest pork nothing is.
Where is Primm, Nevada? Is the home of one of the congress turkeys or home of his main source of money?
George
CoastStarlight99 Member # 2734
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I agree Twinstar, also, this would be better on a route such as Los Angeles to San Francisco rather then Las Vegas since if you really want to get to Vegas fast, you fly. This really doesnt seem like its going to happen...
jgart56 Member # 3968
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Combine this with the bridge to nowhere in Alaska and this smells like "SUPERPORK!" I agree with CoastStarlight99, this isn't going to happen...not at that price!
Kiernan Member # 3828
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Let's see. $1.2 billion for 40 miles is $30 million per mile. Ignoring that it's probably a gross underestimation, 270 miles from Las Vegas to Los Angeles would be $8.1 billion, and because we all know that construction contracts are ALWAYS within the estimate and NEVER over budget, we'll leave it at $8.1 billion. If we were cynics, we'd kick it up to ten or twelve billion.
How much would it cost to start running the Desert Wind again?
Primm, Nevada, is one of those places on the state line where it's your first and last chance to gamble. The Amtrak bus stops there.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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The cheapest way to provide service would be to double track the existing UP route with public funds.
Beyond that major point, all that would be needed, in my estimation, to have LA-LV service an overnight success would be six trains daily over the route, a station at Flamingo Road (honestly not sure about the need for one near the airport for the Mandalay Bay, and apparently another luxotel around there, crowd), and existing bi-level cars, well-stocked with Food & Beverage, especially the latter, operating on a six-hour Angels-Meadows schedule.
Unfortunately, and I wish it need not be the case but I fear it will be, there should be a designated smoking car on each train.
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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Are these clowns kidding? Our Congress? If any one industry has spiked private sector investment in the moving of groups of people is the casino/gambling industry. The high rollers take NETJETS the blue hairs and the Holy Rollers take buses, and the yuppies and wall street guys and gals rent limo's. If there is a great need for a "party train" then I am sure Wynn and company can fund it themselves. The CT Tribes built and run high speed ferries to bring in gamblers from Manhattan. But hey I'm sure which ever consultant got paid to dream up this got a nice chunk of change.
Mr. Toy Member # 311
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It would be interesting to see which Congresscritters voted for this. Could be revealing.
Kiernan, bless him, did the math. I might note that $30 million per mile is really not as outrageous as it seems. The cost per mile of four lanes of pavement is in that same ballpark.
Still, I believe the cost of conventional track is closer to $1 million per mile, so Mr. Norman's suggestion is probably the most cost effective. It might even be suitable for 125 MPH "higher speed" service.
jgart56 Member # 3968
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I also agree with Mr. Norman, double track UP and then buy high speed Talgo Trains for the line! And then you can call it "The Desert Wind.!" yeah!
abefroman329 Member # 3986
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Tanner - Wynn and Co. can't get together to build it because they can't agree on where it should stop, they all want the station closest to their casinos. Right now they're probably content to let the airlines, motorcoach companies and government duke it out.
Plus there are the other two questions, 1) Who is it that wants to go to Vegas from SoCal but doesn't want to fly or take a bus and 2) How much money are they gonna pour into the casinos? If the answer to 1) is "not many" and 2) is "not very much" then forget it.
Gilbert B Norman Member # 1541
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Quite correct, Messrs. Gart and Toy, I did state the cheapest way to have Angels-Meadows rail service that would make a meaningful contribution to commerce, would be to increase existing UP track capacity. This likely would entail double tracking the entire route, and even additional capacity over Cajon, possibly buildng an interchange between the ATSF and SP routes through the Pass..
I don't think any equipment other than existing Surfliner design cars is needed, nor any speed in excess of 79. Just six, six-hour trains over the route - nothing exotic needed!
Of course, as I have noted in the past, anyone knows how wide open the welcoming arms of the UP would be. Tuffy the Turtle has got to be their official mascot, for in his great wisdom, he knows how to cross the existing single track and avoid 60 mph freights, but alas Tuffy can't make it accross two tracks and deal with 79 mph passenger trains.
More to the point, the railroad belongs to the UP and/or BNSF. They run their trains in accord with their requirements of service. They fiercely loath any outside party, especially a government agency, coming on the property and dictating to them how their railroad will be run.
And like it or not, once public funds are on the table, government believes that have the right to start dictating. There is simply too much history out there, both on and off the rails, to suggest that dictating is often done in a, to say the least, capricious manner.
RRCHINA Member # 1514
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If we wish to discuss a meaningful contribution to commerce in the context of rail transportation then I suggest that LA to Las Vegas is far down on the list. This line is primarily a recreation line in-so-far as passenger service is concerned. And many, or most, who travel to Las Vegas for recreation are gamblers who contribute their monies to those who produce little of value for the good of our country.
If we really want to experiment with Maglev to create worthwhile transportation then lets do it where those professional, productive people need to travel, say DFW to Houston, Chgo to St Louis, NE corridor to Atlanta and many more. It is OK for recreational travelers to utilize those lines also, but lets think about improving the economy so that we all benefit. The NE corridor is a study of what I suggest as many professionals use it instead of planes or autos. But LA to Las Vegas is not.
cassrr Member # 1834
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Sorry, guys. Doesn't matter if you double track it, triple track it or shove a rocket in the rear car, rail travel from LA to Vegas won't be attractive to the average Joe. As long as the gas guzzling overpriced SUV's can get you there and back for less than $50 in eight hours, or the airlines for $80 in two hours you'll never see the masses flock to transportation that will cost over $100 and take ten hours. Ten years from now, when gasoline is scarce and all the airlines have competed each other into bankruptcy then maybe MagLev or other high speed rail has a chance at success.
Tanner929 Member # 3720
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Following 9/11 the casino's and Las Vegas practically sent a Limo to your door to get you there. The congress does not have build anything to get gamblers to Las Vegas.
CoastStarlight99 Member # 2734
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quote:Originally posted by cassrr: Sorry, guys. Doesn't matter if you double track it, triple track it or shove a rocket in the rear car, rail travel from LA to Vegas won't be attractive to the average Joe. As long as the gas guzzling overpriced SUV's can get you there and back for less than $50 in eight hours, or the airlines for $80 in two hours you'll never see the masses flock to transportation that will cost over $100 and take ten hours. Ten years from now, when gasoline is scarce and all the airlines have competed each other into bankruptcy then maybe MagLev or other high speed rail has a chance at success.
I agree about the airlines, JetBlue charges around $50-$70 if you book ahead of time from Long Beach to Las Vegas.
jgart56 Member # 3968
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Well,
When all corporations and companies drop health care benefits within the next 5 years and they will...SUV's will be a thing of the past and people will have very little discretionary money with which to gamble or tool around with, then the Las Vegas line probably won't make any difference and LD train travel will be mostly gone! And within 5 years, when most of the airlines are gone, and those that are left have ticket prices that are jacked into the stratosphere, few of us will be flying...we'll be too busy paying $12.00 a gallon for gas, and the rest of the paycheck will be eaten up by healthcare and mortgage. Thus transportation to far away places will be out of the question for the average joe. So maybe those train corridors will actually be the right thing to do?? As many of us will be returning to the old ways of rarely traveling more than 50 miles to go anywhere. Won't this be a sad future? All us railfans will be sitting at home watching our videos, whoops dvd's, whoops well whatever and remembering what the good old days of Amtrak travel were like.
Or, we could complain and fuss to our congress-critters and be complete pains to them to get things done. I guess the choice is ours!!!
Sorry, this was a stream of consciousness type message.
RRCHINA Member # 1514
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jgart, you are much, much, much to negative. Or are you perhaps too politically influenced by those whose motivation is designed for their personal gain?
This is the greatest country that has ever existed and we have so many diversified and talented people who keep creating and innovating so that your predictions seem beyond contemplation
If you really seriously believe what you just told us then you should leave and go to wherever you feel will satisfy you. But I am sure you will not leave, and I honestly do not want you to go. Just be more open in your analyis of what is happenimg and give it a try to, yourself, create or innovate and see what a great personal satisfaction you receive. Even if your creation is very small.
This great country and its people, large and small, have overcome so many things in our 230 years since the Declaration of Independence and there are always more challenges. But we shall, all of us, keep going because of the freedoms we have and because some of us ( most of us?) will give our lives to preserve what has been the legacy of our forefathers.
George Harris Member # 2077
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The US has three main areas of exports, which should tell us a lot about our country:
1. Agricultural products. <3% of the US populations produces something like 20% of the world's basic foodstuffs.
2. High end technology. Think Boeing. Despite Airbus's huge pipeline into government funding, Boeing still has about half the world's aircraft market.
3. Brainpower and education. A US college's advanced degree in anything is one of the world's most valuable commodities. US business and technical experts can be found in every country in the world.
Despite, and perhaps because of all the faultfinders, we still do better than almost anyone else in almost any area we put the effort into. I say "because" due to the fact that almost no one else is willing to subject themselves to internal analysis and self-criticism the way the US does. It makes us appear much worse than we are to ourselves and others, but it also provides for correction of problems in a way nothing else does.
George
Chucky Member # 2263
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rrchina,
Chill out on the "love it or leave it" crap. jgart56 certainly has a right to his artfully expressed opinions and there certainly is more than a grain of truth to what he has said.
As far as Maglev trains are concerned, the LA-Las Vegas route is probably the only viable option in the US and could prove to be quite popular and maybe even profitable. If people in this country are waiting in line to spend $200,000 to get them into suborbital space, I suppose they would spend a fraction of that take a Maglev to Vegas, if only for its novelty.
Such a train would, no doubt, enhance people's appreciation for long-haul train travel and I don't think it would take away from Amtrak, any more than New Mexico's "Roadrunner" commuter service will take away from Amtrak.
Incidentally, the local news just reported that the Roadrunner is running about three times more expensive than initially projected. So it's going to cost about $300,000,000 to get it up and running. Some of the state legislators are upset but I think that when the dust settles, everybody will love it.
A maglev from LA to Vegas: sure, why not? Anything that will improve rail service in this country is a great thing.
RRCHINA Member # 1514
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Chucky, please read more carefully!!
I expressly said I did not wish jgart to leave. But if any of us are so dissatisfied perhaps we should try somewhere else. That is a freedom we have, and also we have the freedom to return and be welcomed back.
Mr Harris makes some excellent common sence with his participation above. We all have it in us to be positive, creative and pleasant to associate with, even when we dissagree on certain issues.
Chucky Member # 2263
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rrchina,
Nobody, except for yourself, raised the possibility of Mr. jgart56 leaving the country because he happens to have some fairly right-on opinions about the state of the nation.
Mr. jgart56 either has a social conscience that you evidentally lack, or he is not riding on the good times that you are.
The cliche phrase, "America, Love It or Leave It," goes back a long, long time and it is generally expressed by people who think they are in a position to tell other people what to do with their lives.
Mr. rrchina, you are no better than jgart56 and you have absolutely no right to talk to him in that tone of voice. Nor do you have the right to tell me how I should post my replies.
You said, "If you really seriously believe what you just told us then you should leave and go to wherever you feel will satisfy you." The fact that you also said you don't want him to leave doesn't make that insulting reply any less pompous.
Nobody gives a rat's a s s whether you want Mr. jgart56 to stay in this country or not.
If you want to attack jgart56's position, I think you should reply to the specific things he says, not tell him he can leave the country if he doesn't like the status quo.
TwinStarRocket Member # 2142
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I would prefer we would rephrase the 'Love It or Leave It' argument to 'Complacently Brag or Make It Better'.
200 years ago we should have left if we did not like slavery? 100 years ago we should have left if we wanted women to vote?
jgart56 Member # 3968
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Chucky,
Thanks for the support, I was feeling rather maudlin last night after spending numerous hours on the Medicare site trying to figure out what plan my parents would be under. If any of you want to try an exercise in futliity, go to that site and try to figure out the medicare drug coverage programs. Our US Government could not have made it more difficult for our Senior Citizens.
I don't take umbrage at rrchina, he has his opinions and I have mine, although I must admit to being rather amused by his response. So let's just forget about it and talk trains!
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