An Amtrak employee passed this along to me and I thought I should share it will you.
Word has been floating around Amtrak that most, if not all, of the long haul trains will be getting downgraded food service pretty quick. This will be similar to what's already happened on the Texas Eagle. Some of the Superliner lounge cars have already been outfitted with seating on the upper level at one end -- most likely in preparation for this conversion.
The future of the full-service dining cars is a little cloudy right now. Once again, here comes the onslaught of micro-waved, pre-made meals -- an experiment that was tried about ten or fifteen years ago.
Anyone who's seen or tasted these disasters knows that it definitely is NOT a service enhancement. I heard one employee say that she wouldn't serve one of the meals to her ***.
I guess Norman Mineta and his pals figure that if they can't kill off the passenger trains quickly, they'll try and kill them off slowly --- by downgrading the products and services offered on board,
When will they ever get it? Dining cars lose money. They always have, even back in the heyday of passenger trains run by the independent railroads. Learn to accept that fact rather than thinking that you can downgrade your product to a point where it MIGHT be profitable. All you're going to do is drive away your passengers. But, then again, that's probably their intent.
Amtrak is writing the latest chapter on how to drive off the passenger business. This reminds me an awful lot of what S.P. did with their automatic buffet cars. Maybe those are next in store on Amtrak. The spirit of D.J Russell and B. F. Biaginni lives on at Amtrak!
If any of you want to try and save the full service dining cars, now would be a good time to write your Congressmen --- the ones who are friendly towards Amtrak
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
I will repeat myself here - Microwave TV dinners are not the answer !! Amtrak needs to get a realistic view of what it's passengers really want for meal service. I for one am not looking for a Five-star dining experience. Nor am I looking to be stuffed and rolled out of the dining car three times a day. (No I am not a 100 lb skinny gal who eats like a bird.) A simple 3 squares (think your local diner or family resturant with a down home menu) at a decent price.(Think portion control too.) Perhaps one higher price entree that is a regional specialty. Calorie laden desserts are luscious but make them an added charge. I am sure others on this board could add their ideas to mine. Ways to cut costs without lowering quality to pre-prepared nuked food as the only way to go. Dee
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
Perhaps another way to go would be to have full meal options as well as ala carte options (priced as such). People would have the ability to choose and pay for the amount they would prefer to consume. This follows the example that many diners offer!
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
How can they downgrade the food on the Empire Builder after making such a fuss about the refurbished trains and their amenities? Won't people (including me) who booked the EB expect it to be as advertised?
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Let's not jump to too many conclusions. Certainly there is cause for concern, but so far plans call for food service changes on only four LD trains, the Texas Eagle, City of New Orleans, Sunset Limited and Capitol Limited. I don't know what passenger traffic is on these trains, but I'm guessing that the number of passengers aboard at any given time is less than on many other LD trains, like the Empire Builder. Hence their desire to combine dining and lounge cars on those four trains into one car (see http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df01092006.shtml#Simplified )
The pre-cooked meals are probably nothing like the TV dinners they served in the early '80s, which were awful. Food preparation technology, like everything else, has improved a lot in the last two decades. So don't assume it'll taste bad until you've tried it.
The above cited article states that the revamped Gate Gourmet contract should save a good deal of money overall, which implies that on other trains that alone will be sufficient for greater efficiency.
Yes, there is cause for concern. If Amtrak screws this up, it will be yet another black eye. But let's also be clear, Amtrak food service does cost a lot, and does need to be more efficient, lest it drag the whole system down. Even with these changes, food service will still be a loss leader.
Posted by SunsetLtd (Member # 3985) on :
NOOOOOO They can't downgrade the Diner on the Sunset they have the best food cooked by the best cajun chefs!!!! That would deminish the class of the whole train. Everyone that eats in the Diner of the Sunset while i've been on it complements the chef when he is on break!
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
The question lingering in my mind is whether the Sunset's diner and lounge are busy enough to justify two cars, or can the be consolidated into one? Frankly, with that train, I'm skeptical. But I don't ride it. The Texas Eagle, maybe.
Posted by SunsetLtd (Member # 3985) on :
Even with the small consist the Sunset has been doing very well. Diner is always full as it pulls into ELP and I could even hear the lead SA calling names from the waiting list. The Lounge is even more crowded then the diner! Once they call all aboard they flock the lounge car and thats when they start the movie. But mainly this is all Coach passengers, the eagle tru sleeper is the only real sleeper on the train, I really hope they bring back the Sunset's sleeper so passengers traveling to NOL could buy a bedroom, family bedroom, or accessible bedroom. Which the Transition Sleeper does not have.
Posted by royaltrain (Member # 622) on :
Well Mr. Toy, having tried the pre-heated meals on the Eagle recently, I can assure you it is a most inferior product. Not as bad as the notorious TV dinners of the past, but certainly a significant downgrading from the regular dining car experience. In that article from Nationalcorridors.Org. It mentioned having only three people working in the dining car (down from five) and using pre-heated meals.. On my recent journey, posted in two parts as N America rail journey, I described my experience with the Eagle’s pre-heated meal service along with the notorious can of soup. I also described my experience on Via’s Canadian that on most journeys only three people are needed, and they utilize a certain amount of prepared re-heated food. The Via meals are really good and they seem to have cut quite a bit of expense without sacrificing quality. As well, Via actually serves the meals on china, not the “attractive disposable dinnerware” quoted in the article. There is nothing attractive about having your food served on something disposable. I well remember the pre-Amtrak and pre-Via diners where the CP, UP or Santa Fe would have a huge on-board staff with practically everything cooked to order just like a land-based restaurant. Regrettably those days are long gone, but even in our fast-food world it is possible to make re-heated food both attractive and tasty. I can only hope that Amtrak will come up with something better than what they are currently trying on the Texas Eagle.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
quote:Originally posted by royaltrain: ...The Via meals are really good and they seem to have cut quite a bit of expense without sacrificing quality....
....even in our fast-food world it is possible to make re-heated food both attractive and tasty. I can only hope that Amtrak will come up with something better than what they are currently trying on the Texas Eagle.
That's the sort of information I was looking for. It would seem that Amtrak is repeating its 1980s mistake. If you haven't already, I suggest you tell Amtrak what you just told us. I fully agree that food quality is vital to Amtrak's success. I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. A well fed passenger is a happy passenger. A poorly fed passenger will be cranky and more critical of every little flaw in service.
As for the Sunset, it sounds like a combined diner/lounge would end up being uncomfortably crowded. A combined diner/lounge would only seem to work for me where traffic is light, or during the off season.
I just didn't want to jump to conclusions. Perhaps we all need to write our Congresscritters about repealing the provisions in the latest appropriations bill that micromanage Amtrak food service from Capitol Hill. That is really the catalyst for all of this.
Might mention the National Corridors article was reprinted from Amtrak Ink, an employee newsletter, so it does contain official spin.
Posted by PaulB (Member # 4258) on :
I will be on the Sunset this Friday from LA-El Paso and back, and will give a full report (with pictures!)
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
If you check the orum before you go, try to post in a new thread! I'm interested in what you find in the Eagle's diner but this thread has been here for several weeks and I might miss it!
Posted by Southwest Chief (Member # 1227) on :
Very sad to see this. Meals on LD trains is practically the only reason to travel by train now a days. The whole cruise ship on rails attraction is huge for the Coast Starlight, more so now on the Empire Builder, and somewhat so on the Zephyr. The other LD trains (Southwest Chief, Sunset, Capitol Limited, Eagle, etc...) are used more for getting from one place to the other than a cruise ship like trip.
Brings up an interesting question though. Will this (saying it is eventually applied to all LD trains like the Southwest Chief) diminish the level of service on the Chief to warrant the Santa Fe (now BNSF) to pull the Chief name once again?
Could the Southwest Limited ride the rails again?
Probably not, as I agree with Mr. Toy that the food will not be great but won’t be as bad as those infamous 80’s meals (incidentally when the Chief name came back)…..but who knows?
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
I don't think BNSF will care too much and pull the name. It's been 35 years since the ATSF ran it's "Chief" passenger trains and an entire generation has grown up not knowing much about train travel. It's even possible some of the higher ups at BNSF don't remember the "Chief" name!
Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
Are the "TV dinner" or microwave meals being initiated in the dining car or the cafe?
Surely Amtrak could not charge someone in the dining car's atmoshphere the soggy cheeseburgers served in the cafe car.
I was honored once to have one of the "intereasting" meals in the cafe car and if that kind of thing is ever introduced in the dining car it will be a disaster.
Posted by vline (Member # 1132) on :
Sadly, it seems things have to go from bad to worse before some bright spark a few years into the future decides that hey,.... if we have a chef prepare & cook meals on board our trains, we might tap into a niche tourist market. Which to me, is something like Amtrak service was in the mid 90's. What goes around comes around with these things. Mike in Australia.
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
quote:Originally posted by Southwest Chief: Meals on LD trains is practically the only reason to travel by train now a days. The whole cruise ship on rails attraction is huge for the Coast Starlight, more so now on the Empire Builder, and somewhat so on the Zephyr. The other LD trains (Southwest Chief, Sunset, Capitol Limited, Eagle, etc...) are used more for getting from one place to the other than a cruise ship like trip.
I'm not comfortable referring to any Amtrak train as a cruise experience. It is, after all, a regularly scheduled transportation system, and never really had the level of luxury one would associate with a cruise experience. Amtrak trains are reasonably comfortable, to be sure, but far from luxurious. I leave that to American Orient Express and other tour operators, which are set up exclusively for sightseeing, and not a way of getting somewhere.
That's not to say Amtrak doesn't have value as a way to tour the country. It does. But one should not expect a cruise experience from a transportation provider.
On the other hand, I adamantly disagree with a small segment of the railfan crowd (and a large segment of the current leadership in Washington DC) that because Amtrak is a transportation provider, the company's only obligation is to provide a seat. From a business point of view, that attitude is suicidal. Certain amenities are needed to attract customers. Not all customers will want to take advantage of those amenities, but others demand it or its no sale. That's the beauty of having different classes of service. Amtrak can provide no frills service to coach passengers, and more comfort to sleeping car passengers. That is as it should be.
I think Amtrak recognizes that some amenities are necessary to attract customers, but at some point the costs outweigh the benefits. The current discussion centers around where to draw the line. I think it is a delicate balancing act. Its like a teeter-totter. On one side is the cost of providing amenities, and on the other is the income generated by having those amenities.
Amtrak's headaches come when Congress gets involved. The teeter-totter is trying to balance three points instead of two. The third being the need to satisfy a Congress that thinks it is Amtrak's marketing department, planning department, and accounting department. If you've ever tried to balance a triangular object on a single point, you get the picture.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Mr Toy I must echo your sentiments. Amtrak is certainly no land cruise. (Although the current prices are getting in that neighborhood.) Even sleeper (first class) does not equate with land cruise (see American Orient Express). It is a no frills, minimum space, experience. Just ask many first time Amtrak travelers who have booked a roomette. Their first comments are something along the lines of "this is not what I expected" or "this is not what the agent described". Dee
Posted by amtrakwine (Member # 4265) on :
Just finished round trip on the eagle. The dining car food was sub par. the braised beef was ok. Bring back the real dining meals. I miss the eggs for breakfast and the steak for dinner.
Posted by jgart56 (Member # 3968) on :
What exactly did they offer for breakfast, lunch, and dinner amtrakwine? Just curious?
Posted by amtrakwine (Member # 4265) on :
Breakfast was micro-wave omlet, french toast, ham, or contenintal. I had the french toast, I had to send back to be reheated as it was cold the first time Lunch was tuna sandwich, micro-waved burger no tomatoes or lettuce. I asked for tomatoes was told they were saved for salads. Also dinty moore stew. Other dinner choices micro-waved tortellini; rice and cod (not to bad), chicken parmesan,(horrible)
Posted by cassrr (Member # 1834) on :
Just returned from a trip on CZ #5; crew confirms the Zephyr will convert to pre-prepared tray meals April 1. Seems the dining crew has had an opportunity to try these meals. Their reaction...well, let's just say they rank them in the same category as Stouffer's microwave meals.
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Anybody know whether there is a menu online for these new pre-packed dining car meals?
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
A review of the website would suggest business as usual, Mr. Presley.
However, where it sounds Amtrak is going systemwide is emulating the the on-board service that I found on a May 2003 Three Rivers trip.
The tables in the Cafe Car were set, metal flatware was in use and the micromeals were 'adequately tasty'.
It appears that the fleet of Diners and Sightseer Lounges are to be converted to the multi purpose Diner-Lounge and assigned either one or two per train depending upon passenger loadings.
These are my guesses; but here they are in print to be matched against reality as it unfolds.
Posted by PaulB (Member # 4258) on :
You can find photos of the new Sunset Limited Menu on my photo page at http://paul.internetforall.com Go to the album "My Worst Train Trip".
Now: Before wild rumors abound (though it looks like they already have) let me tell you all my thoughts about the dining car meal service:
NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED.
For dinner, I ordered the New York steak. This steak was exactly like the New York steaks I've had on several previous trips-leading me to think they still broil them. It definetly wasn't microwaved, and it wasn't a "TV Dinner".
For breakfast, I ordered the French Toast. Again, it was just like all the other French Toasts I've had on Amtrak.
For lunch, I had the Angus burger (photo on webpage). Not much different than other burgers I've had on Amtrak.
On the return trip, for breakfast I had scrambled eggs. This was the only meal I could tell was prepared beforehand (photo on webpage). It wasn't very good-the hash browns were very spicy.
For lunch, I had the hot prime rib sandwich. It definetly wasn't "microwaved", and was very tasty.
Since we were so late into Los Angeles, we were served an "emergency" dinner. You can also see that on my webpage. Not bad, considering they weren't even supposed to serve lunch according to the schedule!
Bottom line is not a lot has changed. The only change I could tell is that instead of 4-5 entrees per meal, they are serving 3-4.
Posted by amtrakwine (Member # 4265) on :
It is my understanding that eventually micro-wave dinners to be system wide except for Empire Builder and the Coastal Starlight. Paul the Sunset may be changing soon. After seeing your menue has not happened yet.Steaks and freashly cooked eggs are no longer on the Eagle. The New York strip has been relaced with braised beef.(same price) Time will tell
Posted by PaulB (Member # 4258) on :
From what I could tell it already changed. The menus were not the "standard" Amtrak menus, although they were similarly designed. These menus, as you can see, had "Sunset Limited" at the top of the cover. So as far as I can tell, the dining changes have taken place.
Unless, Amtrak changed the menus, and then will change them again when they bring out the microwave stuff. Why they would change menus twice in a few months is beyond me, but that could very well be Amtrak's method.
I might be taking the Texas Eagle in mid-March, so I will be sure to do another "food report"
Posted by rY (Member # 3528) on :
Actually, the offerings on that menu bear much similarity to those by the dining car on my most recent Coast Starlight trip (two weeks ago). In fact, the dinner choices on your menu match everything that was available to us on the Starlight. Lunch looks very similar too...
It could be that with the renegotiated Gate Gourmet contract, trains are moving to this standard menu until "the new inventory" can make its way out in April... ::shudder::
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
It may seem like a small thing but I believe we are not talking about microwave ovens on board. The plan is to use convection ovens much like the airlines use. I don't believe there has been a microwave on a commercial aircraft since the early '70's when Continental had one on the 747 and DC-10. They were only used "If your entree is not heated to your liking" or to make popcorn for the pub(s). Most commercial airline ovens are either convection or steam.
I'll be interested to see what the quality of the product is. It depends pretty much on the ability and care of the "heater".
Frank in foggy SBA
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
Frank is correct about heating food with convection ovens, not microwaves.
But I hope the similarity to airline food ends there.
It is my understanding, according to the latest NARP newsletter, that a converted sightseer lounge will be the main food service/lounge car, while a second converted dining car will be added on more heavily traveled trains. I wonder if in such cases they'd separate sleeping car and coach passengers in to different food service/lounge cars. Should be interesting to see how (or if) they work.
Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
I recently got that same newsletter Mr. Toy is talking about from NARP in the mail. In it, it does infact state that Amtrak will be soon (2007) be converting Sightseer lounges to LOUNGE/DINER cars. It also states that there would be no onboard skillet or dishwasher. This sounds just like a horrible idea, and im hoping this is not going to happend for sure.. Does anyone have any more information? This NARP newsletter was from December so I hope this situation has improved.
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
Mr. Toy--
Check out www.airlinemeals.net to see what airline food can be. Again, the key is in who is heating and serving it. If food like this can be presented from a much smaller galley on an airplane certainly Amtrak could do at least as well.
Frank in sunny, warm SBA
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
In Re: Airline Food:
If Amtrak uses airline food, particularly as furnished by US based caterers, I think I will have taken my last Amtrak LD trip.
The prices were high enough for First Class tickets when the food was good. I'll bet cash money the accommodation charges aren't going to decrease, just the quality and size of the portion.
I'll have to take a CZ trip this fall and see what's going on.
Posted by PullmanCo (Member # 1138) on :
Frank,
The European and Asian carriers do a good job with their catering.
US caterers: My first experience with "rubber chicken" was on TWA in the 60s. Now, having been to more than a few banquets, I understand rubber chicken. Still don't like it, but understand it.
Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
I traveled on Swiss Int'l Airlines the past two summers to Europe. We traveled coach and the online thing Amtrak serves that could compare it to is what is nuked in the sightseer lounge. Nothing Special.
Airlinemeals.net sure does have some food items that look rather quality. Obviously this is a first class air meal and a first class ticket is rather pricey.
I would think preparing fresh food onboard a train would be less expensive then paying a pricey caterer to create something that can amazingly stay fresh over a long period of time.
Posted by amtrakwine (Member # 4265) on :
quote:Originally posted by PullmanCo: In Re: Airline Food:
If Amtrak uses airline food, particularly as furnished by US based caterers, I think I will have taken my last Amtrak LD trip.
The prices were high enough for First Class tickets when the food was good. I'll bet cash money the accommodation charges aren't going to decrease, just the quality and size of the portion.
I'll have to take a CZ trip this fall and see what's going on.
Posted by amtrakwine (Member # 4265) on :
Sorry I am having internet problems in th hotel. Iagree with PullmanCo The prices are just as high as the old freash cooked food with half the quality. I am thinking that Amtrak LD trips for me will not much in the future. Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Could this be just what they want? To get fewer passengers so they can then claim the long distance lines are not used, and shut them down? Or at least, get rid of the sleepers?
I notice the sleeper fares far in advance are way up anyway, making them prohibitively expensive. I don't know if they started raising prices much quicker on the sleepers, are selling them out at discount to large groups and have nearly filled a lot of trains far in advance, or are just screwing around with prices because they don't know what they are doing, but it's very weird.
Posted by DeeCT (Member # 3241) on :
Sojourner --- I also have noted the incredible increases in sleeper rates. I am figuring that my late Spring trip will probably be my next to the last trip on Amtrak. Last trip will be one that will use up my Guests Rewards points.
Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
Just how certain is it that there will be an expansion of these convential oven cooked meals throughout the entire system and that Sightseer lounges will become DINER/LOUNGES? I wish someone knew just what the chances were...
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
CS99, from the reports I've read, its not entirely clear how this will go. One report suggested that the new food and services will be limited to four trains to see how it goes. Other reports suggest the lounge/diner conversions are a done deal and will gradually be done systemwide. Something tells me the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Also unanswered, how the lounge/diner conversions will affect the redesigned sightseer lounges recently put in service on the Empire Builder. These were introduced just a few months ago as a model for a systemwide conversion, pending input from passenger response.
It makes me wonder if the left hand knows what the right hand is doing. The Empire Builder upgrade was intended to be a long term program, while the more recent diner/lounge conversion proposals seem to have been hastily thrown together in response to an act of Congress.
Posted by TBlack (Member # 181) on :
Just to provide a little perspective and, perhaps, a counterpoint to this discussion: If you wanted to go from London to Athens by train, the journey would take about 4 days. After you get to Paris, and for 3 days thereafter, there is no dining car. You are completely on your own for sustenance...3 days. I think we need to think creatively here, otherwise we're letting the bureaucrats in Washington run our lives. I'll bet with a little bit of thought we could figure out how to fry eggs and bacon at our seats or some similar remedy. Think of the menu possiblities, and it's not really different from what's going on with the airlines. They've abrogated their responsibility to feed us, so now we can bring on board whatever we want. I'm bringing the martinis and the caviar, and the fellow in the next compartment has a delicious smoked quail you might want to try.
Posted by TwinStarRocket (Member # 2142) on :
According to my state passenger rail newsletter I got today, diner cutbacks begin this month on the Crescent, CNO, 1 Florida train, and 1 western train (probably the Sunset).
It is described as a "non-changeable preset offering on a plastic tray that is warmed either in a microwave or convection oven. It promises to be better than the disastrous microwave meals."
Also in this newsletter... There are currently 49 sightseer lounge cars and 57 diners in the superliner inventory. Of the 128 superliner coaches needed daily, only 125 are available. Western LD's run at 57% capacity, while corridor service runs at 33%.
So, if we stop feeding passengers and raise prices we can effectively solve the equipment shortage problems. And Norm Mineta will thus become a visionary.
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