great. now another reason for spanish speaking people to not learn english.
Posted by abefroman329 (Member # 3986) on :
Wait, more people are going to ride Amtrak and possibly keep it afloat? What a travesty!
Posted by MontanaJim (Member # 2323) on :
yah but more taxpayer money has to be spent on bilingual public signs, educational and labor facilities etc than what amtrak will gain.
Posted by PaulB (Member # 4258) on :
There are A LOT of Hispanic people traveling on the Sunset Limited to El Paso and points west. So yes, more people may ride Amtrak.
Posted by abefroman329 (Member # 3986) on :
quote:Originally posted by MontanaJim: yah but more taxpayer money has to be spent on bilingual public signs, educational and labor facilities etc than what amtrak will gain.
All because Amtrak has a Spanish webpage now? Amazing!
Posted by sbalax (Member # 2801) on :
Living in California I'm perhaps more aware of the number of Spanish speaking people and people who feel more comfortable doing business in Spanish than folks in other parts of the country might be.
Yesterday, on the northbound Surfliner from Los Angeles, I spoke to a young mother with two young children who lives in San Diego but who takes the train every weekend to Oxnard to visit her husband who has a great construction job there. She spoke limited English but said she had used the Spanish website to book this trip.
The "Latinization" of Continental Airlines, an airline I'm very familiar with, has proved very popular and profitable with their Spanish speaking customers. The dual language signage was paid for by the airline not the airports involved.
My brother used the "Quik-Trak" machine to buy his tickets LAX/VTA yesterday. I didn't notice if the machines offer a Spanish screen. The Metro Rail ticket machines all offer this option.
I think this is a smart move by Amtrak and will generate revenue. Now, I wonder if Julie speaks Spanish?
Frank in COLD, windy SBA
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I'm with you ,Jim. The politicians are making us a bilingual country to get votes. Funny how the immigrants from other countries learn English as have the millions of others over the years. We have the 4th largest Asian community in the country in our small county and there is only English and Spanish. Nothing for them. Yet they getalong just fine. Strange isn't it? There is no incentive for the latinos to learn English so why should they. I just wonder how the Latinos have ridden on Amtrk before this.
Posted by abefroman329 (Member # 3986) on :
quote:Originally posted by sbalax: Living in California I'm perhaps more aware of the number of Spanish speaking people and people who feel more comfortable doing business in Spanish than folks in other parts of the country might be.
I'm sure; I don't live in California and thought it was weird when Sears started putting up signs in Spanish. But there's a lot of money to be made from Spanish-speaking customers, so who can blame them?
Posted by mikesmith (Member # 447) on :
What private companies do or don't do as far as language, doesn't matter to me. It is their decision.
However
Our government either must conduct all business in english OR conduct all business in all languages. Our government cannot discriminate against Greece, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, China, Thailand, Zimbabay, Russia, or any other language, while promoting the spanish language. If they make an exception for 1 language, they MUST do it for all languages.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
I agree with you, Mikesmith. In our school system we have speakers of 70 different languages.At the library there was a pile of info in Spanish so I asked the Librarian what happens to speakers of all the other languages. Her reply was "they learn English"
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
If Amtrak thinks they can bring in more business with a Spanish language website, it would be foolish NOT to create one.
Perhaps they are looking forward to the day when Mexico and the United States are linked by rail. Oops, this is Amtrak we're talking about. They don't think that far ahead.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
As a person who has worked for several years in a country where I did not speak any of the local language and now only a few words, and read very little Chinese, but more than and not always the same as what I speak, I have a very different perspective.
It is not pandering to the illegals or anything else to provide information in another language. It is simply making life easier for the visitor and those that do not have much in the way of talent or time to learn another language. I am all for it. In fact, providing some signage in Chinese characters would also be very helpful in lots of area.
Since English is the most widely used SECOND language in the world, you can go a long way with English signage plus local language signage, but if you have a large component speaking another language you need the third. In the US we probably don't but the Spanish speaking contingent is large enough and now widespread enough, it is quite reasonable to use it on signs in public areas.
Here in Taipei, the verbal announcements on teh subway are made in four languages. Since other than the English, which is last, all the others use Chinese writing, the written signs are only in two language, Chinese and English. however, if you go to Singapore, you will find four written languages on the signs in public transportation. Chinese (simplified), English and Malay in the Roman alphabet, and Hindu script.
The railroad timetable book is in Chinese only but there are Roman alphabet and Chinese characters on the station signs on the platforms. Most larger stations now have certain ticket windows with a sign that the person there can speak English.
Here you can take the drivers license written test is English if you are a resident foreigner, but many of the road signs are in Chinesse only, particularly once you are off the main roads. That means for the foreign driver you find yourself stopping at intersections with a map held up trying to match stroke by stroke the characters on the sign with the characters on the map. By now, I have learned to recognize a lot of the place names, at least visually even when I have no clue what the sounds are.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
quote:Originally posted by MontanaJim: great. now another reason for spanish speaking people to not learn english.
Just what exactly does that mean? Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
I agree with MontanaJim that people living in America should speak ENGLISH, but so many websites/customer services phone numbers now have spanish options so it was obviously going to come for Amtrak's website as well as 1800USARAIL.
Posted by mikesmith (Member # 447) on :
George, do you expect China to cater to your native language? It appears the USA is catering to the spanish language and ignoring the other world languages. I'm wondering how our government gets to discriminate that way? The way our buying habits are progressing, we should be catering to the Chinese and Indonesia languages.
And am I the only one that's noticed how much Jonathon's spelling has improved over the last year or so?
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
Without touching on the 'learn English' or go home debate, would you folks imagine that there are rail enthusiasts living in Mexico who, like us, would love to have the option to travel long distance by passenger train?
It's a travesty that long-distance passenger rail service is all but completely non-existant in Mexico thanks to the privitization (with no Amtrak-like provision for passenger service) of their rail network.
Perhaps the spanish webpage is merely an outreach effort intended increase revenue.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Great Idea. Now Amtrak needs to add coaches to the Sunset and other trains and promote in spanish speaking communities. I need to add this to my "if I was Amtrak dictator" series.
Posted by blancoj (Member # 2918) on :
RENFE, Spain's train system, offers an English version of their reservations website. I don't see a problem with Amtrak offering a Spanish version of its website.
I personally would like it if people had to speak English to live here (I'm speaking as a first generation American myself), but that's a separate issue from this one.
Posted by Gilbert B Norman (Member # 1541) on :
quote:Originally posted by notelvis: It's a travesty that long-distance passenger rail service is all but completely non-existant in Mexico thanks to the privitization (with no Amtrak-like provision for passenger service) of their rail network.
Actually, Mr. Presley, there was not any oversight regarding a "Mextrak' provision. In fact it was just the opposite.
To what extent the Mexican government considered a "Mextrak'provision when the State rail system was privatized, I know not. But what I do know is that the US interests that invested in the Mexican rail system, principally KCS and UP, clearly delineated it was condition precedent that no one was even to THINK about a "Mextrak" and that the passenger trains were to be killed.
I have long thought, and especially with hindsight, the US roads are of thought they signed a "Faustian pact with the Devil' when they joined Amtrak. This is especially the case when after Staggers was enacted eight years into the Amtrak era, all the roads would have needed to do to be "out' was say the word.
I think it is a fair statement that the Class One roads, even if some of them from time to time, 'make a $$$ or two' with the performance payments, would sooner have no passenger trains anywhere on their systems.
The railroad investors were not about to have a rerun "South of the Border'.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
You guys need to not be a bunch of racist- If you cant speak english and want to ride the train by useing internet to get tickets, then you could just use Amtrak's Spanish site, whats wrong with that?
Posted by notelvis (Member # 3071) on :
[/qb][/QUOTE]Actually, Mr. Presley, there was not any oversight regarding a "Mextrak' provision. In fact it was just the opposite.
To what extent the Mexican government considered a "Mextrak'provision when the State rail system was privatized, I know not. But what I do know is that the US interests that invested in the Mexican rail system, principally KCS and UP, clearly delineated it was condition precedent that no one was even to THINK about a "Mextrak" and that the passenger trains were to be killed. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Wow. This is even more unsavory than what I imagined.
It wasn't lack of Federal Oversight but rather part of the deal to begin with? Incredible.
I suppose there are those at Union Pacific that wish they could have the same success eliminating long-distance passenger trains in the United States.
Posted by blancoj (Member # 2918) on :
Jonathan, it isn't racist to question why information is provided in English and Spanish but not other languages. Not every non-English speaking person is Hispanic or Latino. What about Asians? I don't think a non-English speaking Chinese person would find the Amtrak Spanish language website very helpful.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Jonathon, It is not that it's wrong as such. We are a nation of immigrants, always have been and one of the things that has made us a great country is the fact that we have had a common language. We can work together and comminicate ideas. By catering to one group over all the others we destroy that. That doesn't mean one has to give up his first language.The more languages we know the better we are. But this is an English speaking country and anyone who wants to be a citizen has the duty to learn our language. Suppose I were Asian,Arabic or any other ethnic group and wanted to take Amtrak. There is nothing for me. Either I learn English or now Spanish. If I plan to move to another country one of the first things I would do is start learning their language. and not demand they redo everything in mine. Nor would I call them racists for not changing their ways to mine. I hope you can understand this.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
If hispanic people were white, then the arguement would be why do we need an English site. If white people were chinese, then why do we need a spanish site or a Taiwanese site that might cause a war between Taiwan and China. Then Congress will have reason to kill Amtrak for causing a war.
Posted by gp35 (Member # 3971) on :
Maybe this is the first step of the UAE taking over Amtrak.
Posted by Big Merl (Member # 3251) on :
I wonder if this means I can get my ticket printed in Spanish? That would be too cool.
Posted by Room Service (Member # 2405) on :
quote:Originally posted by gp35: Maybe this is the first step of the UAE taking over Amtrak.
Posted by CoastStarlight99 (Member # 2734) on :
quote:Originally posted by train lady: Jonathon, It is not that it's wrong as such. We are a nation of immigrants, always have been and one of the things that has made us a great country is the fact that we have had a common language. We can work together and comminicate ideas. By catering to one group over all the others we destroy that. That doesn't mean one has to give up his first language.The more languages we know the better we are. But this is an English speaking country and anyone who wants to be a citizen has the duty to learn our language. Suppose I were Asian,Arabic or any other ethnic group and wanted to take Amtrak. There is nothing for me. Either I learn English or now Spanish. If I plan to move to another country one of the first things I would do is start learning their language. and not demand they redo everything in mine. Nor would I call them racists for not changing their ways to mine. I hope you can understand this.
Very well said.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Look, if you go back in the past you will see that quite a few immigrants don't learn the language very well at all. Instead, they live in enclaves where they don't need to know much English. Some get jobs or move to places that require them to learn more English; but quite a few do not. Lots of married immigrant women in the past did not learn English much at all. When you're older, it's not so easy to learn a language. And even if you know enough to get by in conversation, reading and especially writing it can be another matter, especially when it's a non-phonetic language like English.
What you have to expect is that the SECOND GENERATION, by which I mean school-age immigrants as well as children of immigrants, will learn English in school. That is why some people don't like ESL programs; they say it encourages STUDENT-AGE immigrants or children growing up in immigrant households to keep from learning good English. But I don't know that that is true. Most studies point out that the second generation does learn English because they want to advance in life in the US and that the worries about the ESL programs are exaggerated. In Florida, where ESL programs had little protest in the past, I don't know that there is more lack of English among the second generation than in California, where there was a lot more outcry against the ESL programs. But I'm no expert on this matter.
All that being said, I don't think it is the responsibility of any business, even one that gets some funding from the government, to worry about whether they are contributing to the encouragement of immigrants or their offspring not learning English. It is their job to do what is best for their customers, saving time and earning money.
And don't assume because someone chooses to use the Spanish version of the website that they aren't trying to learn English. I know a little Spanish, and if I were moving to Mexico, I'd try to learn more. But if I were booking a trip in Mexico on line, I'd still rather do it in English.
I'm not sure how many older immigrants who don't know much English actually use the computer to book trips. (In fact, a lot of older people don't use computers much, immigrant or not.) It seems to me having Julie do a Spanish version (or Julia, pronounced HOOl-yah!) would generate more revenue than on-line booking; I hope Amtrak does that with the phone. Tons of American businesses do it; they must find it good for business.
Also, as someone pointed out, don't assume that everyone using a foreign language to book is an immigrant. Some could just be visitors to the US.
Finally, about the argument that it is somehow unjust to have a Spanish alternative when you don't have them in other languages, this would only be true if the number of speakers of any one of the other languages were as many as there are Spanish speakers, which I believe is not the case--last time I checked, Spanish was the second most widely spoken language in the US.
Still, if it were good for business, then by all means it would be good to have the website in other languages as well. But it would have to depend on (a) the number of speakers of the other language there are and (b) cost effectiveness.
Posted by train lady (Member # 3920) on :
Soujourner, you are right to a degree (to my way of thinking, that is)There were many older immugrants who never learned to speak English. The difference is that they didn't demand and expect that the Local and Federal gov'ts become bilinguial for them. Where I live the Asian population is very close to the latino. They learn the language very quickly.To my way of thinking there is no reason why Latinos can't do the same. They are just as bright and capable. My point is if one is going to be a contributing member of a society one must be able to communicate with others and that means a common language,not giving up their first language. I can see Amtrak having several languages available for visitors. French is the language of deplomacy and many nations also speak it,Japanese ditto. Many countries are far more language orientated than we but they also have a national language which all citizens speak. It is a shame we lag behind. Lastly I would hope if you were to move to Mexico you would become a Mexican and learn their language and not refer to yourself as a hyphnated American.
Posted by Room Service (Member # 2405) on :
Pienso que es una idea realmente buena.
Posted by blancoj (Member # 2918) on :
Friends of mine (a young married couple) came to the US about four years ago from China and settled in Oakland, CA. They spoke little English.
After four years, the wife speaks excellent English because she makes an effort to speak English as much as possible. Her husband's English is still poor, which makes her mad. She told me it is too easy here in California for people to avoid learning English, stating, "He can watch Chinese TV, get Chinese newspapers, take the driver's license test in Chinese, speak Chiense at the doctor's office and the hospital, interact only with Chinese people, and read Chinese books online. He doesn't see any reason to learn English." Meanwhile, she takes classes after work to improve her English language writing skills.
When my parents came to the US 50 years ago, they figured they had better learn English if they wanted to be able to function in America. Similarly, when I lived in Japan, I had to learn enough Japanese in order to survive so I would not have to ask my Japanese co-workers to help me out all the time.
Expecting people to learn English in an English speaking country is not racist -- it's just common sense.
Having said that, I applaud Amtrak for deveoping a Spanish language website. I'd like to see them add other languages, too, for non-English speakers interested in Amtrak travel. The more business we can drum up for Amtrak, the better!
Posted by Mr. Toy (Member # 311) on :
I can think of one very good reason why Amtrak singled out Spanish as an alternate language webite to the exclusion of other languages. There is a Spanish speaking nation right next door. If they spoke Chinese in Mexico, the new version of the website would be in Chinese.
Perhaps other website languages will be introduced someday, but there needs to be a demonstrated need for such that will generate enough business to justify the cost. Given the large numbers of Spanish speakers visiting this country, I'm sure that cost is justified.
Perhaps the next language Amtrak will roll out is French for those visiting from Quebec.
Coaststarlight99 wrote:
quote:I agree with MontanaJim that people living in America should speak ENGLISH,
I work with a lot of Hispanic people, and they are all making a good effort to speak English. But some are more proficient than others. Learning a second language isn't easy. It takes time. Meanwhile, it just might be helpful to many to have a Spanish option. Its not about providing a crutch, its about being neighborly.
Posted by MontanaJim (Member # 2323) on :
i didnt know my post would cause such a firestorm.
Im not racist. I simply believe everyone should know how to speak and write english. i lived in china for three years and learned more chinese in one week than some foreigners here in the US do with english in a lifetime.
i have nothing against spanish speaking people speaking spanish in their homes, but i think the national language should be english.
Thats all i have to say on the matter. sorry if i offended anyone.
Posted by irish1 (Member # 222) on :
with you all the way montana. there are people in this country that would love to see are way of life go away. chipping away at the english language is just one the ways. i could go on forever about things like winter holiday instead of christmas but thats for another board. the aclu will destroy us if we let them.
Posted by CPRTim (Member # 4327) on :
quote: Perhaps the next language Amtrak will roll out is French for those visiting from Quebec.
Amtrak has always provided a French Timetable for the Adirondack and Montrealer (when it ran). Beginning from the time the trains were first inaugrated in the 1970s.
Even the pages for these trains in some National and Northeast timetables were shown in French.
Posted by JONATHON (Member # 2899) on :
Ether way, The Amtrak Spanish Site is here to stay, no matter what you think, so if ur white, and dont like it- oh well.
Posted by sojourner (Member # 3134) on :
Irish, if you are so into preserving "are" way of life, why do you call yourself Irish?
.
Posted by irish1 (Member # 222) on :
i am a big notre fame fan.
Posted by George Harris (Member # 2077) on :
Quite a few are missing the major point: Amtrak provides transportation and does have a certain contingent of international ridership. Therefore, second language information is way overdue and that would still be true if there was not one single Spanish speaking person living in the USofA for the simple reason that Spanish is the most prevalently spoken language in the countries near our own. Amtrak does or did at one time publish promotional brochures in other languages as well. I have seen one that was in Chinese several years back.
As some others have said, people vary widely in their ability to learn another language. There are people who come here and can speak passable Mandarin Chinese after only two or three years. Some also learn to read and write it, and others never learn to recognize a single character. Other people try to learn it and never get there beyond a few poorly pronounced words even after years.
George
Posted by CPRTim (Member # 4327) on :
quote:Originally posted by George Harris: Quite a few are missing the major point: Amtrak provides transportation and does have a certain contingent of international ridership. George
Quite surprising that Amtrak has not provided a Web Site in other languages before now.
VIA's Web Site is in English and French which are Canada’s two official languages and is also available in German, Spanish, Dutch, Portugese, Japanese and Korean.
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